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I've been working on something along those lines. Everything is rated on % scale, and it uses opposed rolls. I've been fiddling with it, and currently it uses the ones die to determine success level. In RQ terms a roll under skill that is 0-7 would be a success, 8-9 a special, and if the tens die is even then rolls that in in a 9 are a critical (09, 29, 49, 69, 89). So there is no need for a resistance table or a success level table.

A horse told me. Specially that SIZ 42 charger that I've mentioned. Two x15 modifiers become 15^2 or x225! So I got concerned about that with other multipliers. Especially since we would almost have to dump the new 1000 glory cap, to be fair to the high APP guys (there is no damage cap). A fairly fixed passive amount of some sort seems safer. APP if over 15 is the obvious (if trival) choice. APP per 1000 glory might by workable, but risky (Knight with APP 16 and 10K Glory getting 160 passive glory per year might be too much, although it would take awhile for it to get to that point.). .

Oh, I see. Carrying on with Sir Extraordinary (50K) is more glorious that carrying on with Sir Potato of Couch (1500 glory). I can buy that.

I think that would be better handled as the lady getting a fraction of the glory the suitor earns "in her name". The idea being to inspire the knight to perform great deeds in her name. It should certinaly give women stuff to do and make them more than cardboard cutouts.

Sure. As it stand now, players have a vested interest in knights and their sons, due to the whole dynastic nature of the game. But wives are sort of throwaway characters. They do get to do much (yet) and glory they get doesn't help them all that much (see the previous two points on wives). So if a wife has 500 glory, 5000 glory or 50000, it doesn't matter that much. Now if if we made the role of the wife to pass down to the daughters the way it does for knights, and let glory pass down too (i.e. chidlren get the better Glory total of Mom or Dad) then assuming we come up with stuff for wives to do, the players of wife characters have a stake in how the family Yes, I think that's where Stwardship and Industry should come in. Basically wife gets ahold of X libra but her husband wants to spend X on one thing and she would like to spend X on another thing. So she uses her skills to try and streach X into X+Y libra and in a few years has 2X and can get both. The Book of the Manor might help here. The Knight could use Book of Estate pricing for Improvements and the wife use the Book of the Manor to see how (with the random rolls) to see how the improvements really worked out. So husband could expect £2.5 income from his horse herd, but wife rolls the random income and could wind up with more or less than that. So if a few years she might squirrel away a few libra that "Honey" doesn't know about. And that gives her some power. I was thinking that maybe a better simpler approach would be to do what they do for squires? Namely that the wife gets 5 (or maybe 10 or even a higher figure) glory per year for every 1000 that the husband has. That would keep the math simple, and keep the bookkeeping down. So if a Knight had 6000 glory, his wife gets 30 or 60 per year for being his wife. Noe that widows could get this until they remarry too. Which would raise the bar for potential suitors. This could be revised for when the wife has more glory than the knight (see below) My thought here was what happens when somebody married above his station. For instance the consort of the Queen. Typically those guys get a reputation as being meek and weak willed, even if they don't deserve it, unless they have accomplished themselves in their own right. So the idea would be that they would get glory for marring a woman with more glroy than they have, but it would be the wrong sort of glory ("Look it's Sir Henpeck, the Queen's wife") and they won't want it. That would encourage consort knights to want to go off and prove themselves, which I believed is how a lot of those guys wound up dead. It would be another source of conflict between the two characters and thus good material for roleplaying.

Yeah the latter is what I was thinking. A knight might earn 100 glory from his own actions, but get 110 from his wifes actions, and be looked at as "just the consort" and not much of a man. Figure it a good spot for Modest/Proud to kick in. Of course if he has 20,000 glory and she has 5000 then the extra 10 from here was a piddling amount. But if the glory totals were reversed... Oh, late thought, but maybe instead of getting a fraction of what the husband earns, the wife could get annual glory like a squire, that is 5 (or maybe 10) points for every thousand that the husband has? That would be easier for bookkeeping, provide incentive for wives to marry well, and if applied to widows make it that much more difficult for a PK to get a widow to re-marry "down", as she would loose annual glory. So now an extraordinary knight with 32000 Glory is an extra 160 (or more) glory per year. And if we use some for om Morien's suggestion of APP increasing glory (which I don't like) then high APP knights would be more appealing as husbands as they would generate more glory and give the wife higher annual awards.

Yeah, but in game play, big deal. I think there needs to be more for a wife to pass down to her daughter similar to how it works for the knights. That wave a wife PC will be in in for the long haul. Likewise I think there needs to be some more points of contention between the knight as his wife. So that when he wants to build a new improvement, she might have a reason to want to spend the money elsewehre. Me too. I think this could be extened to ladies who give let a knight carry thier favor as well. I dunno. I think there probably should be some "backwash" glory, but I think the knight should probably want to (and have incentive to) earn more glory on his own than what he gets from his wife. Maybe he gets bumped down to "consort" status or something?

That's a common problem with group designed projects. Everyone has their own take on what it should be and not everyone agrees on some things. There was a attempt to make a group world, similar to Questworld here some time back and it ended up with people not being to agree on things and everybody going on to create their own setting. I think a project like this needs one person (or a small group) to act as an overseer and kind of set the parameters, and determine the focus of the project.

I'm less concerned about deliberate hosing, which should be unlikely in a good players, and more concerned about a half hearted approach as the player probably wants to get back to playing their main character. I was thinking more along the lines of adding some sort of dynastic component to the wives the way the do for the knights. Give them some sort of stake in the family. Maybe even something that passes down plus some wifely goals to strive for that might not line up with the knight's. As it stands now there is really no reason for a wife not to do what the husbands wants.

Yeah, but then the problem is the player playing the wife has no real reason to do what would be in the best interest of the family, as they would have no stake in the outcome. For the Knight, this is his family line, for the wife this is a throwaway character.Even playing a wife with a million glory doesn't do the player of the wife much good.

You might like Pendragon even more then. In Pendragon they don't have attack and parries and instead melee combat is handled with an opposed roll. The winner inflicts damage on the loser. It does make you think twice because if the other guy is a lot better than you you'll take damage and he probably won't.

I kinda got that with the 900 libra bribe in you previous example. I just anted to be sure it was a 1-to-1 relationship. Don't I think something like getting a dukedome as a favor should require such a huge investiture of goodwill and libra that it becomes the payoff of a life's worth, or several years income for a major nobleman. If you apply a divsor then household knights could start to expert a disproportionate amount of influence. You might want to use the glory award table as a guide for "favors'. Trivial Favors: 1G or L Ordinary Favors: 10G/L Heroic Favors: 100G/L Very Heroic Favors: 250G/L Extraordinary Favor: 1000G/L So the Duekdom deal at 900G/L was pretty close to extraordinary.

Eek, everyones worse fear about Episode IX!

No, it's an investment, and it will pay back dividends. Because they might not take much effort. If the players use the random chargen method then hitting a a bonus becomes a bit erratic but generally more common than by the standard method. And as you point out the old 80 point chivarly threshold is there is the PK wants it. Since it takes high traits to get that we can assume something like 150 glory per year for that, time 1.5 so that 75 extra glory per year right there. In short no you don't. First off there is the random chrgen method, which used to be the default. There there is just the luck of the dice and improvement rolls, or spending money for teachers and improvements that grant extra checks and rolls. I would assume that the high APP character would be more likely to go for the passive glory because he gets a greater return for his effort. It's also a not so mere 1 bonus point. But that's assuming they are both early equal glory pre multiplier and I don't think that will be the case. The high APP knight will probably focus on passive glory and court events, where his APP and higher glory will help him. So he will be succeeding at more courtly skills, earn more skill checks, earn more glory, and improve faster. It's self perpetuating. For instance, both knights will marry, but the high APP one will tend to be more successful at it thanks to a higher modifier from glory and possibly APP, higher court skills (due to the bonuses from APP glory resulting in more successful courtly skill rolls, more check and higher skills) and will probably not only get a wife with more glory, but would multiply that yet again. And as the characters continue to play the additional glory and skill check will make the high APP guy much better at netting glory at court than the extra d6 will as far as combat glory goes. The 1 healing sin't all that significant. At least not in the 2-3 range. Players normally go on one adventure per year, and HR only really matters if someone gets major wounded or has fight multiple fights spread out over several weeks. Yes, but they are not an actuate presentation of the situation. You assume that traits and skill progression would be similar. I don;'t believe that to be true. The high APP character is going to concentrate his efforts towards the things that high high APP helps him at, not just play the same as the 6d6 guy. The 15 APP guy doesn't have to use Glory points to catch up with STR but could use training and practice to do so. Where we disagree is at what point B catches up with A's advantages. And I think that it will be long before the 10K mark. Arguably is the key term. A better example would be thieves and fighter in original D&D. Fighter were better fighters at the same level but thieves leveled faster and eventually passed fighters on the combat table. Thats why AD&D gave each class its own combat matrix. What I'm saying is that the same sort of thing will happen with glory and that it will happen faster that you think it will, because the high APP character is going to go after as much of that passive glory that you don't like. I just don't see that as being how it would work. For instance in the literature we get a lot more info on what the knights did as opposed to how they looked doing it. Yeah, we're just debating ideas. That's cool. I just don't like that idea, for several reasons. I certainly would like to see APP become more important (I started this thread), but I think that a glory multiplier would be a bad idea. Especially if players develop their character to towards it, which they will. It will be like the typical KAP SIZ problem. Those who opt for it will push the envelope as far as they can. And I think we have to look at chargen and see just what a PK can do with this if he had the chance. Most of the players in my groups focus on getting Sword to 20 ASAP. Winning more often and getting your shield all the time more than offsets a damage die. Lance chargers use the horse's damage. So there are a lot of ways for a PK to offset or negate that extra d6 damage, and I thin a clever player, going into this this will work things out to mitigate his weaknesses and maximize his glory.

Two questions: 1. Does 1 point of Goodwill equal to £1 for this purpose? In you example could someone who had 450 points of Goodwill spend 450 Goodwill and £450 to reach the £900 target? 2. What happens if someone loses the bid? Are the good will points lost? Do they comeback? Or something in between? Good question. I think it depends on just how important glory is. In theory glory is the main goal of the game. In practice, less so, and sometimes you can get more glory by focusing on other things that will make glory accumulation easier later on. Plus Glory is one of the things that passes down to sons./Yes it's 10% but even going with Morien's 10K/15K examples, thats 500 more starting glory. Or 750 if the son is also a looker. So if the sons start out with 1000 and 1750 glory respectively, my money is on 1750 hitting 2K first and 3K as well. That means getting more bonuses to rolls netting more glory (which gets multiplied), drawing extra cards at feasts (leading to more geniality, which in turn gets converted to glory and multiplied) and so on. So it becomes a compound effect. Now I think 1000 glory make much more of a difference at the low wend of the scale than the high end. But I think I'm opposed to the basic concept. I just don't believe that Sir Adonis (APP 20) defeating Sir Respectable (2000 Glory) is equal to Sir Pigface (APP5) defeating Sir Reknown (6000) Glory. Of that Sir Adionis slaying a small giant would be viewed equally as Sir Pigace slaying a fire breathing wyrm . Now maybe some people might be impressed with Adonis straight teeth, curly hair and piecing blue eyes, but does that make a small giant equal slaying a fire breathing wyrm? And if Air Adonis doesn't go out an slay anything one year does that his look only matter when he earns glory doing something else? And nothing else that awards glory in the game works that way. A religious knight doesn't get more glory for dispatching a fiend that one who isn't. It all just seems wrong, and multiplier are dangerous.Even the 1000 point cap came about because of the glory multipliers in the BoB2. And APP would make that so much worse.

Oh, and there is also the fact that having more glory tends to lead to more oppurtunities to get more glory and that 10% of the glory passes down to the son. So in a generation or two the cumulative effect with be devastating.

Ah, that's a big difference right there. Our groups generally split the glory for such encounters. But if he wins 20% more glory then he falling behind in the glory game. Yes, and where we disagree is on how much of an advantage that 15 STR is. In part because of the type of adventures we run and the distribution of glory. If the PKs face off against a lot of bandtis, picts and Saxons, then the difference between 5d6 and 6d6 isn't that significant. Both will usually drop such opponents with a major wound,and the rest is overkill. Against knights the advatage is more signficant, but not equal to a 50% glory increase. In fact, against knight 6d6 is often a determent, as it tends to reduce the ransom money, which in turn can lead to other improvements that can offset the extra damage die, like better armor or a better horse. And a clever PK will try to maximize his strengths. They both do the same damage in a lance charge. Yes, because most of those extra stat points don't mean that much. SIZ and CON affect HP, KD and MW, so each point of those are gold. But STR is not so important. Once you hit the But next damage die the rest is generally wasted. Yes a higher healing rate helps, but it isn't as important as it once was. All High APP guy has to do is catch up in damage dice not in stats. Which doesn't matter. If you are assuming that "they continue at that very rapid pace, 500 Base Glory per year" then APP 15 will continue at 750 glory ayear. So in 4 year if A has earn 2000 Glory. B has earned 3000. Once 15 APP catches up on damage dice then the difference in STR won't be isn't as significant, but the difference in APP will. So it really turns into whatever else 6d6 guy did with his points and time. But you assuming that the high APP character stays the same. What I'm saying it catching up in damage doesn't take that long, if a PK makes an effort towards doing so. For instance, you noted that your PKs tend to improve their SIZ with the free picks during chargen, now what if 15 APP guy used that to help catchup to 6d6? And it's much easier for a low stat guy to raise his attributes than a high stat guy, as the high stat guy is going to run into the caps. SIZ 18, STR 15 can only boost STR by 3 points with T&P before needing 3000 glory to to reach 7d6. But High APP guy can get to 6d6 in 5 years of training and practice alone. Three years if he gets 2000 glory to spend. Now yes 6d6 can spend his T&P time and glory to improve as well, but him going from SIZ 18, STR 15 to SIZ 20, STR 18 won't help as much as APP 15 guy going from SIZ 18, STR 10 to SIZ 18 STR 15. The problem I have with this is that base glory can vary significantly between PKS. Someone with the religious bonus is getting at least 180 more glory a year than someone who doesn't. Factor in for APP and it would be 270 glory per year. That's a glory point every 4 years right there. A character with the religious and chivalry bonus is probably pushing 400 a year, which would be upped to 600. So those characters with high traits and passions would benefit more from high APP. There is your 2000 glory in 4 years right there, and that's all personal. I think +10% per point of APP would destroy the random chargen method completely, and increasing the mini-maxing.

He can't, Prime Directive. He's mad, the rest of the solar system is using Type XV's!

Yeah it's a pefectly fine crossover. Likewise RpogerDees mix could be a perfectly fine crossover too, but it's just one way that one GM wants to implement it-not any sort of actuate measure of relative abilities.

Exactly! Any "conclusions' drawn in such a situation is just one person's (or group of people's) view of how he things things work or should work. Nothing more. Yes. And that's perfectly fine, since each GM is free to run thier own multiverse as they see fit. But someone can't "definitely prove" X is better than Y by using some half baked semi-science out of context, or something that some fanboy posted on some forum on the Internet. They might prefer that version of things, but it's still arbitrary. A GM who thinks otherwise is deluding himself.

No it doesn't. You assuming that the PK breaks even at 10K . I say he catches up long before that. Once he has enough Glory to buy the extra d6 he is ahead of the game. Sir Smasher extra d6 is not going to equate to a 50% glory each session. Damage is not the priamry factor in glory awards. Assuming that both PKs have similar trait and skill values then Smasher isn't going to get much more glory. Especially as a lot of glory is split up among the group anyway. No, but high APP would catch upo long before then. Take two average starting PKs. Now Sir Smasher puts 5 more points into SIZ& STR to get 5d6 damage. Sir Prettyboy take a 15 APP, but skill has enough points to take a 12 in average else, or more likely SIZ 14, STR 10. So by the time he gets 3000 glory he will be able to buy up his SIZ and STR to the 5d6 level. And that's not counting training and practice. Now as I said, Sir Smasher won't be earning glory 50% faster due to an extra die of damage, so he will probably get about 2000 glory, but lets say 2500. That won't take long. By the time the knights are knighted, landed and married they will be in the 1250-2500 range (depends on the wives glory), and Sir Pretty boy would get 50% more so he's closing the gap already. Now lyes Smasher can spend his glory and training to up his abilities, but it will take awhile to get yet another die, assuming that he can, and putting the points elsewhere might be counteracted by yearly improvement rolls, which have a greater overall impact than glory points. So by the time they are 25 I think the situation will be reversed. Smasher might have higher SIZ and STR but not enough to keep his 1 die advantage. Not with double glory, especially if you drop the 1000 cap (which btw, would only be fair). Then APP 20 guy gets 2000 glory for being knighted and so on. You place too much emphasis on damage dice. What damage someone does only matters when they win. Now when they start skills will be comparable so, if facing similar opponents they should both win about the same amount of the time. A has a advantage in combat but it's not as signficant as you thing. Against many opponents, such as Bandit, Picts and Saxons, 6d6 is overkill. Against most knights it's an advatage but not a overwhelming one. Also you focus of attributes is the wrong development path for B, It will take him forever to catch up that way. He best option is to work on his skills so he wins more contests and gets his shield when he loses. Now A can do the same, but even if he does skill is still way more important than damage. I don't think he would win win 50% more duels. How many duels do your PKs fight each year? Assuming the same skill/glory foes, and equally skilled PKs, if IF A wins 10 duels and B wins 7, B will have earned more glory from duels. I think Player B catches up by age 25 or so, just from automatic glory.

Yes, it if it a bull. You intial explame did not indicate that your PK was misheavaing. So? What difference doe it make how they feel about a die roll. It's a die roll not a relationship. If you believe that "Simply getting a Crit on APP should not place a knight of such low standing in the company of the King" then don't put the knight there. You're the GM, your running the game. If you don't like a rule, you can change it. But what it look like, based upon your posts, is that you didn't like it that the PK would up "above the salt" so you took it out on the player. He didn't write the rules and it's not his fault that he rolled a critical. Also, as far as "a seat at the High Table" goes, the knight probably wasn't seated there. He was just seated somewhere near there. Depending on the size of the feast there could be many many knights there and he could be but one knight out of several hundred seated "above the salt". Most of a Liege lords friends are people beneath him in station and they usually sit near him at dinner. Yes, and a knight can certainly take offense at that. Duels have been fought over someone commenting of the appearance of someone horse, and mocking your own vassals is not such a great idea. Most stories about traitors tend to involve thier being slighted in some fashion beforehand. What advantage? Does Ulfrius want to get in on the feud between Levomagus and Salisbury, or escalate it? Best case scenario is that he causes Roderick to lose face and gets on Roderick's bad side. Why would he want to aggravate Roderick? Is the something else going on? Oh, and BTW, a clever PK or even Roderick could have replied that they were not surprised by the Stewards absence, he was absent at Countess Ellen's wedding too. Why can't he claim he was slighted? If a knight feels his honor has been sullied in some way he can opt to take offense. The feudal system was actually a two way street. Yes those higher got more than they gave, but there are many cases of vassals turning against a noble or even thier own liege over one of more slights, real or imagined. Yup, but you didn't mention that part of things in your first post. Only that your PK got bored while seatred above the salt, and chose to flirt with the ladies at the table, which is in no means objectionable. He probably shouldn't have needed a Courtesy roll to know that. That should have been automatic. Now did your player know better or not? Some people really don't. I've seen some people who don't really get the unacceptable behavior bit in real life, and some players joke around a lot, and are used to doing a lot of trash talking. I don't know the sort of players you have or what styleof play they are used to. I once played in a D&D campaign where I was a knight of the king, and about 30 seconds after I met the other PCs one player started to insult and bad mouth the king right in front of me. I drew steal and was about the run the traitor through. Most of the D&Ders were outraged that I attacked a party member, and couldn't understand why I did it.. The other players whohad played Pendragon, understood exactly why I did it. But it was a clash of gaming styles. True, but maybe a NPC could have? Again, I'm only commenting based on the information you've given but from that the character would have known his course of action was rude and inappropriate and had consequences, so the player should have been made aware of it as well. Now if the player did know what he was doing and decided to do it anyway, then he deserves what he gets. But it seems like he didn't. Such behavior is so out of place that it looks like a either lack of understanding or player apathy. Again I don't know the detail or context here, but it's such outrageous behavior that I have to wonder what the player was thinking. Then again, that's pretty much how Al Capone got his scar.

Ah, that a horse of a different color. You didn't mention that.

I think it does. I don't think so because we've also gotten glory inflation. There are more ways to get glory now and higher awards. Marriage, Book of Battle, feasts, a lot more glory. You can see it in the higher glory totals for the various named characters through the editions. If being pretty comes with a 50% glory increase quite a few. Skill is much more important than the extra damage die. I think a high skill. +50% glory PC is going to catch up and pass that +1d6 guy. Same with DEX. It's never been on par STR and CON, and between the high armor penalties and the removal of the double feint, it's not much better than APP. Maybe but that runs the risk of rick PKs just buying their way through things, which could reduce the wife's contribution again. For instance in my campaign the poorest PK, a household knight just sold two extra charges gotten in battle, for £20. That would be allow the character to bypass a lot of RPing. It does. Fashion bonuses only last for one "event" (basically they need to get their hair and makeup done again). APP bonus from clothing degrade. Jewelry is constant, however. The thing is if a player gets some spare libra and buys a permanent +10 modifier. I kinda like what Morien did for the wife table in Book of Entourage. What if we based it off of that and had a escalating cost? If the cost to improve APP by 1 point with accessories was equal to the character's APP? So it would get increasingly expensive to get another plus. So someone like Guinevere, a £1 silver ring just won't impress people anymore. She would need to spend £40 to get her effective APP up to 41. Now she can afford that, but for most knights, that means they can't buy a destrier. But, I'm just brainstorming and haven't seen what you got in context.

Yeah it's the standard D20 method, and it works well with KAP. I don't think you need the 30 cap though. APP 32+ is pretty rare. Even a half-fae female maxes out naturally at 29. And that's assuming an 18 roll. No, it better than that. Because of the increased Glory the character would get 5000 glory in the time it would have taken him to get 3333 glory. From that point he got his 5 points back to spend on that extra damage die, plus the 50% increase in glory. That in turn makes the character much more likely win more fights and earn even more glory. Then, when he hits age 35, the increased glory would allow him to mitigate some of the effects fo aging, extending the PKs career.Now if the PK has good traits and one of the bonuses he can hit that 10K glory much faster. The handicap wouldn't last the whole career though, only until the PK earns enough glory to get that d6. So I think that in a short time (in Pendragon terms) they could overtake the other PKs and come out ahead in the deal. And if you going to do 15, consider 20. At double glory 10K is reachable before a PK hits the aging table. If that were the case then we should drop all the 10-25 glory point awards for much the same reason. Yeah, for most. I think I've seen a couple who hit that level, but they had great traits, the chivalry and religious bonuses, some high passions, several manors, and hit their prime right at the end of the Anarchy Period and so go to go through all those battles in the Boy King Period. So it was sort of a perfect storm.