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In the mid 90s that started to change. AD&D 2nd edition was losing market share, and companies liek White Wolf were gaining ground. The RPG shops in my area went from being 75% D&D due to volume (there was more D&D stuff than non) to the reverse. Once D20 came out, lots of companies jumped on the d20 wagon and dropped thier own lines. Within two years or so D&D return to preeminence. There not. They make far more money from OGL D&D than they do from MRQ. MRQ just gives then another niche to sell too. Currently that niche comprises of a small percentage of RQ fans and a large does of disenchanted D&Ders. But, since Mongoose is doing to MRQ what WotC did with D&D (splitting everything off into a different supplement), I suspect the disenchanted D&Ders will end up as disenchanted MRQers.

No, I don't think there will. That's one reason why I don't like OGL. With the parent company you know that at the least the guys writing the supplement know the rules for the RPG. I've seen some 3rd party stuff written by people who were not familiar with a system, making their supplement less that serviceable.

One big difference is that without OGL, we'd be more likely to see a game system carried in it's entirety by local stores. Allowing those of us living in the non-wrapped world to see what we are buying. If we flip through it and don't buy it, then it doesn't sell. That will affect what my local shop does as far as restocking and future products. Likewise, it something flies off the shelf that company's stuff will be better stocked by the store. For example, one of my local stores doesn';t carry Mongoose OGL prdocts. THe owner says they don't sell anymore. People used to buy them, trying to get some new power or something, only to find out that the rules in the product didn't work out right. Sad shop owner also buys practically nothnig but D&D RPG stuff, since there is so much stuff that he can't keep up with D&D AND keep up wth the other RPGs anymore. Net result. OGL turned his shop from a gaming store to a D&D store. That's bad for people who want to play games other than D&D.

Yeah, I'm with Kloster. I see little V&V in Superworld, but lots of Champions. The whole build your character with points approach, flaws, all point to Chanpions. What V&V stuff is there in the game?

I think your missing some stuff for Marvel and DC. DC did release some adventures, and I own at least 3 supplements. Likewise there were more products for Marvel. Still, I'll concede that Champions out supported the others. It used to be HERO's flagship RPG, and at one time it's only RPG. I think TSR Mavel probably outsold it through. Marvel and DC had an advantage in being able to use their own universes. Since most Super gamers read comics that is a telling edge.

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG. HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre. Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes. Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked. There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts. GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time. GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

Sure, my rational is as follows: 1) Big company products are more likely to show up on the shelves than third party products. Both because game stores are more likely to stock WotC, or Chasoium than Joe Smoe's games, and also because many third party companies don't produce hard copy. So, barring shrinkwrap, consuers can flip through the products and filter out the good from the bad before buying. 2) New systems from old companies are usually a bit easier to guess about than new systems from new companies. For instance, we can guess what a new Chasoium or WotC gaming book will be like. So if we have a preference, we can filter that way. So if you like what a company has released in the past, you are more likely to like their new product. But if you haven't heard of the company before, you have nothing to go on. 3) Since established companies tend to be in this for the long haul, there is less chance of seeing them release an entirely useless piece of junk to make a fast buck. There's a lot of OGL stuff out there that just snags a quick profit for some fly-by-nighter. I haven't seen many 3rd party products that match the quality of the official stuff. Most the OGL stuff I've seen has been crap. At best, feeding someone's desire to be a profession RPG writer, at worse a quick buck. Most is really fanzine quality stuff. That also hurts RPGing, since now people are less likely to share their homegrown stuff, when they can sell it. OGL did what is was supposed to do for WotC. It turned around the trend in RPGing and made D&D/D20 the predominant system again. Practically any company that is writing good D20 stuff was writing good or better non-D20 stuff before OGL. OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

Yup. With Jimmy Olsen STR 2, Pre-crisis Superman STR 48, and post-crisis Superman STR 25, the difference between post-crisis and pre-crisis Superman is the same as between the post crisis man of steel and Jimmy! By comparison, most of your Marvel heavies, such as the Hulk, the Thing, Iron Man, Thor and the Submariner would be around STR 13 in the old DC game.

What made "Supergirl" world was that she wasn't actually Supergirl, but a watered down copy. It gave the character some depth too. Basically, she couldn't handle the death of her family, and rejected her normal identity for her delusional one. It was sort of interesting, since it would be difficult to psychoanalyze someone who could duplicate the powers and abilities. Her biggest vulnerabilities were not so much to more powerful villains, but to villains with knowledge of the comics. She was worried about being exposed to Element #36 on the periodic table. We knew it would have no effect on her, but she figured it was lethal. But yeah, overall DC character are more powerful than Marvel ones (pre-crisis Superman can, and did bitchslap the Hulk), making them harder to work out in most RPGs. As will any 4-color "team" campaign, the GM needs to vary the challenges in order to ensure that all the heroes are useful. Sometimes this can be funny. "Yeah I can fly. Oh, fly a PLANE-no I can't do that! I could carry the plane there, though. If it doesn't break in half. But pilot one, no." Hey, can Clark Kent drive? :confused:

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind. I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

Tell me about it. For decades I ran many, many different RPGs (I think my RPG experience probably rivals the one in your intro), yet whenever I got a chance to play, I was usually stuck with D&D, since that is all anyone else was running. I used to tell my gamers that it was frustrating that I was the guy who picked up these RPGs because I liked them, and yet never got to enjoy an RQ, Pendragon, Timelords, etc. campaign as a player. I've got some games now that I would just love to play/run, but can't find anything other than D&Ders in the area.

Realistic heroes do work better than 4 color heroes in BRP. A Captain America type, with good stats and great skills, and a high AP shield would be easy. Batman, a little more difficult, due to gadgets, and more powerful heroes more problematic. Still, SUPEROWLRD did handle the high power characters fairly well. My character concept for the "Wildcards" setting was a teenager whose family was killed by the swarm, and felt powerless for not being able to save them. When she got superpowers, I literally had her become the most powerful heroine she could image, Supergirl, and gave her most of the same powers, although toned down to fit within my point allowance, and she had to be a bit delusional to get enough extra points to do it. She may not have matched up to the DC character, but she could pick up a M1 tank.

That's one of the other differences between TL and BRP to. In BRP the db is constant. If a troll has a +2d6 db, he adds it to his punch, as well as to his maul. With TL the STR bonus was as a multiplier to the weapon effect. So STR was more useful for larger weapons. Quite sensible, since most weapons act as leverl to increase the effective STR.

Hmmm, Timelords had a skill called wounded that had a similar effect. It was weapon skillspecific, difficult (meaning a lower stating percentage) and could do no more that double the weapon's normal damage. It could easily be adapted to BRP. Something like: Wounding (Select Specfic Weapon Skill). Knowledge skill in RQ3, starting at 00%. If successful roll an extra damage die for the weapon.

Massachusetts. It could be due to distributors and you suggested. Probably different regions of the country have different distributors, some might shrink wrap, some might not. As far as I concerned, if they started to shrink wrap everything around here, I'd probably stop buying new RPGs at the stores. The ability to look over a product is one of the advantages that local stores have over the net. That, instant gratification (no waiting time) and input from other gamers at the store. I hate getting stuck with a real stinker, and if I was forced to buy blind, I'd buy a PDF online and save $$. ONe nice thing about Spririt of the Century is that you can buy a PDF/hardcopy package. You get to DL the PDF (instant gratification!) and then the rulebook arrives in the mail. Best of both worlds. I'd love to see Chasoium do some sort of print copy/PDF package deal.

Just wonding, but how much work would be needed to pull that off? Could the game be used as a espionage RPG now? Is it that you need more rules, or just the info on agencies and cold war stuff? From my experience, I found that CoC soucebooks are fairly useful for modern gaming/espionage once you take out the Mythos nasties. Chaosium's Bermuda Triangle supplement is practically invaluable for running espionage adventures in the Carribean in the style of the James Bond novels. Something like 90% of the book is real world info like maps, countires, currencies and the like. How much of Berlin 61 would be useful for other systems or types of gaming. The setting really has a lot of potential.

I think there was maybe one supplement for Superworld. Most of the superhero RPGs did have supplements printed for them, though. The best supported were the first Marvel and DC rpgs, not surprisingly. Yeah, BRP's engine doesn't really work well for a 4 color comics campaign. Some of BRP's strengths actually work against it when it comes to Superheroes. There are some tweaks in the Superworld boxed set that makes it work better than the WoW rules, but it still isn't a good fit. Then again, BRP wasn't a good fit for the mythic setting of Glorantha, either. IMO, the worst fits are probably GURPS (which really breaks down, as it tries to be grittier than BRP), and Palladium (no non-lethal combat, so people don't drop unless dead or dying, making most heroes mass murderers). My overall favorites for Super gaming would be Golden Heroes, and Marvel (SAGA version). The two most popular super RPGs are probably Champions, and Marvel (TSR version, revised edition). The real trick to Supers gaming is to get players who are into comics and that sort of thing. If they go at it with the typical fantasy RPG approach, the campaign won't last long. A supers campaign is less about acquiring things and character improvement then it is about doing good deeds, saving lives, and thwarting evil. It's a lot of fun to be able to do things you otherwise can't do, as well. Unfortunately, Super gaming doesn't get a lot of respect from fantasy RPGers. I once had a guy who refused to play a Super hero RPG saying that the powers were silly. Later the same night, while playing D&D, I pointed out how in our group of four characters, we had one guy with superhuman Strength, another who drank a potion of elongation, a third who could go invisible, and the guy who through supers were dumb had points of fire breathing and a necklace of fireballs, and could fly. My Fantastic Four analogy won my argument, but ticked the guy off more than convincing him to play. Still, he stopped giving us flak for playing supers.

It is being to look like a LA area thing.

I pretty much considered finess damage to be factored into the degree of success results. For instance, arapier, dagger or other finess weapon is usualy an impaling weapon, and so did more damage on sp[ecial successes. Some BRP variants even went so far as to give rapiers triple damage on an impale. Personally I think factoring it into skill/degree of success is the path to take. One thing I like about non-D100 RPGs is that the mardgin of success (difference in rolls) can be easily used as a damage result. With D100 it is a bit tougher. One option might be to have damage be based on how much you make your roll by (1 point per 10%) plus a base add for STR/SIZ and weapon type (say 1/2 the normal db and weapon damage). Blocking could absorb damage by the same method. Just a wacky idea though.

Nightshade, Okay, I can see what your saying now. But I don't quite agree. I don't think that the cultures that created such myths actually disntinguished between "real monster" and high order fiction (or low brow fiction). It was all a bit of a mix. For instance, the Grek gods were often viewd as more fictional characters or writers tools for parables, then as real beings, but were still offered worship. Basically, the problem was that the mysteries of life and the world needed to be answered, and people will usually accept any answer until they are given a better one. We still do it today. Snark Hunts, I've done stuff like that in campaigns. I once had the group vampire hunting only to find out in the end that the "vampire" was really just a demeneted townsperson. I've also "reverse snark hunted". My favorite CoC character was a guy who didn't believe in in the Mythos, or any of the Mythos beasts. Oddly enough, I was always lucky to be elsewhere when the monsters did show up. The one or two times he did get a glimpse of something strange, he was able to explain it off as something more natural (WoW, did you see that big bat, that just flew past the window?). The character really started to annoy the GM, since he was far more successful than the other CoC characters. His SAN wasn't dropping, his skills were improving, and he was doing just fine without any magic spells.

I ran/played Superworld in the past. We used a couple of different settings, from the Wild Cards world, the Marvel Universe, and even a custom made one. In most cases the setting is fairly close to the modern world, with a sprinkling of superheroes thrown in. Generally, how you plan such a thing is in essence, similar to how you would plan just about any other RPG. 1) The GM creates a setting. Most of the time this is the real world with some supers and magic added. Occasionally, this is a historic era, an alien wold, or an alternate dimension (I once had a group go back in time, where the archer PC hero met up with Robin Hood). 2) The players create their characters. They come up with a concept, and then spend points to build the character. One neat option introduced by V&V years ago, is to write up yourself as a character, and then give yourself superpowers. This not only adds an ego trip element (most people who play super RPGs have some wish to fly, lift trucks, etc.), but also helps to flesh out the campaign. It adds a whole new dimension to the campaign when characters not only need to put out the burning building, but do it fast enough to be home in time for dinner. 3) Adventures typical revolve around a NPC villain committing some sort of crime, and the heroes trying to stop him. With super villains, the crimes can take on a larger than lie quality. For instance, instead of robbing a bank, a villain might try to steal the entire bank. Other types of stores, like natural disasters, rescues, and even stopping street thugs or reforming punks are all possible ideas. As for Superwolrd, It works. But it is a bit clunky. Going with soltakss' example, the mind zap would be resisted with the appropriate trait (POW if a mental attack, AP/HP if a physical one). Powers are really written up to about the same level of detail as in champions (SUPERWORLD is basically BRP with Champion styles powers thrown in on top). It DOES work. But frankly, so do a few other superRPGs, and most of them work better. Much like GURPS, the benefits of the BRP system, such as it's realistic style, are at odds with the genre. With Super campaign we don"t want reality, we want the reality of the comics. So when "Mr. Invulnerable" falls off the roof of a 10 story building, we don't want him to go spat from 30d6 damage-we want to see him stunned, and a bit hole in the asphalt. SUPER RPGing in general can be a lot of fun-just as log as the players realize that it isn't a dungeon crawl. One fun group I ran, involved the players writting up kids who end up getting superpowers. We set that in our home city (always a good choice) allowing the group to use local landmarks and such.

TRose, Yeah. This sort of thing does get brought up alot when talking about creatures like dragons and vampires, that have legends in nearly all cultures. Dragons are generally believed to have orginated from the bones of dinosaurs that men came across (dinosaur theory didn't come about to the 19th century!). Vampires were the ansers to two problems. Why some people who were "dead" came back to life (okay, so they wern"t really dead) and why people died when you let too much red fluid (we call it blood) leak out. Lengends of the Amazaons seem to have derived from "pygmies" encounted in Africa. Just looking at ancient maps will reveal just how ofter (and how willing) people "filled in the blanks". A quick net search on almost any fantasy creature will reveal the supposed history/origin. Sometimes, eve, the creature is real-as with the giant squid. Not that giant squids attack sailing ships.

Because there have been two Indiana Jones RPGs? It's part of the GM's curse. When someone starts to run, especially if they run a lot of RPgs, and several different types of RPG, they start to pick up a mish-mash of knowledges required by those games. Who else but a gamer can hold discussions on mythology, ballistics, use Einstein's theory of relativity to work out the energy output of a photon torpedo, and know the difference between Lorica Segementata and CHOBHAM? :shocked:

Could you give some examples of this, so I can get a better grasp of you line of reasoning? I'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing.

That's probably it. Since I'm on the East Coast and you are on the West Coast, our stores might be buying from different distrubtors. You's shirnkwrap, mine don't.