Joerg

Ah. The Kickstarter I missed, and a way too costly failure of my central heating last month which prevented me from acquiring those pdfs yet. As much as I live and breathe Glorantha, I still prioritize eating regularly over getting those pdfs. I suppose that this "became a woman" woud have followed his giving up the post of warlord and the ability to incarnate Zolan Zubar. I still suspect that the Varzor Kitor mentioned in the text above is a Gray Age or even Chaos Age character who may have been reborn into the Shadzoring wars. Possibly a follower of Queen Norinel.

There isn't much more to tell about him than is in King of Sartar. Now, being Vamargic is a different issue - a looming 2 m person with grey face paint wearing a necklace of ping pong balls with pupils and a deep growl do a lot to intimidate people. Never mind that I remained quite the talkative person furthering the aims of the Kingdom of Night (alas somewhat better than my own ones - the impromptu Hill of Gold quest was turned into a lottery rather than a series of six exchanges, so I didn't get the fire rune I meant to get out of that, a bit of a shame). I seriously doubt that the Arkati would meddle that way - they set themselves up as guardians against indiscriminate meddling. I just don't see the happily married one half human one quarter dwarf one quarter elf Gwalynkus take a troll mistress besides his trophy wife from the nearly extinct Gold Wheel Dancers. And I admire his grandmother managing to get a dwarf to reproduce... Varzor Kitor could also be a title (warlord of the Kitori) rather than a single person. It is pretty clear that the individual who became the warlord was born in the first century, otherwise his extraordinary age would have been mentioned like it was for Aram ya Udram. I see great evidence that the lead-masked, cloak-wearing spearmen of Ezkankekko were on and about possibly even prior to I Fought We Won, braving the terrors of the Chaos Age keeping the precious few shards of life as it was known earlier in contact and healthier than they could have been on their own. The conflict with the Shadzorings could be part of that. Hellspawn versus Hellspawn, but one backed by Unity while the other still on a rampage of hatred. It is interesting that the inhabitants of Alkoth are consistently described as the same Shadzorings that had terrorized central Genertela since before the Chaos Age. Or a Sairdite connection. Prior to the Dawn, the Kitori messengers were active all over that Dawn Sites map, and so were the Shadzorings in the northern half. Does he? Palangio is from Rinliddi, and he manifests Daysenerus, a fragment or son of Antirius. Antirius and Alkoth don't exactly look back on a flawless partnership. In fact I suspect that Shadzor was the Cruel God at Manarlarvus' fateful Hill of Gold expedition. No - if he was indeed a disciple of the Only Old One, he could choose to appear as troll or dehori rather than as man. And if he wore the lead mask and the cloak of his office, it would be hard to tell which shape he wore, surrounded by the darkness of his incarnated deity. Where do you get the "transforming himself into a woman" from? Just another thing to hate and destroy, really. It might be similar to the uz and their tolerance of the chaos-polluted cave trolls. I am wondering if the Shadzorings are sort of an anti-parallel to the Kitori. Hellspawn demons who supposedly have a demonic appearance, but who may appear human for all purposes. Eusibus aka Emperor Upon Hilltops would have to be a Shadzoring, yet not a single mention about deviant looks or behavior is made in the Dara Happan chronicles. As a son of Shargash he probably was nobility among the Shadzorings. We never get any description of the Shadzoring appearance. I would guess that they have divine Dara Happan ancestry from Alkor when he merged with an Underworld entity that afterwards dismembered Umath, but that's pet theory territory and likely to summon the wrath of other scholars. After Eusibus submits to Khordavu, there are apparently no more sightings of Shadzorings outside the green walls of Hellgate. Plentonius maddeningly fails to mention the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile, except as part of Khordavu ordering the world. Khordavu (in Raibanth) summoned the armies of the horse nomads and the storm rebels and their monster allies to fight each other near Alkoth, the way Plentonius describes these things. It is clear that urban Dara Happa remained uninvolved in that conflict. It is not clear whether the horse warlord army was led by an emperor, as the last Jenarong emperor Kills for Life is described as killed when he confronted the Ten Princes and their conducting the imperial rites, and not in battle against the southern army. Plentonius describes the campaign of the ten princes as if they had big armies and were able to fight prolonged battles. From reading the History of the Heortling Peoples, I get the impression that the fifty years Siege of Alkoth meant that there was a constant watch on the lands surrounding the city. It isn't clear whether the Council army devastated the rice paddies. They were unable to stop the river access to the city. The struggle between Khordavu and Eusibus for the right to wear the Ten Accoutrements of the Emperor and the noteworthy tilting of the Green Wall could not have happened without being observed by the Council forces. The fact that Eusibus could claim the title of the Emperor using the Ovosto rites when there still were horse warlords about reinforcing the Jenarong rites indicates that the struggle against the council had weakened the horse warlords, and that that also allowed the Ten Princes to gather some fighting force and campaign for their Accoutrements. Eusibus is the only emperor who came from Alkoth, and thus the only Shadzoring emperor within history (until the Hero Wars). Plentonius doesn't exactly name the factions or tribes among the horse warlords, but he does trace different lineages, including a Rinliddi one started with Kerunebbe (by his name a horse warlord), but succeeded by a son and a grandson bearing names starting with Kestin, in the ancient Rinliddi/Kestinliddi tradition which dates back to the Anaxial dynasty or even further. A similar "going native" effect can be seen with the Bull Shahs who took the Ten Tests just before the Rinliddi rebellion which brought out the Crimson Bat and a living goddess. Peter Metcalfe gives an interesting description for Dawn Age Alkoth in the Wikia: http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Shadzoring So what about Eusibus? The Wikia lists him under the category "Shadzoring Emperors". How do the Shadzorings disappear from outside of the Green City Wall? Judging from the Wikia entries, Peter appears to agree that there are still a lot of uncertainties in the events that led up to the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile and the battle itself. And IMO the Shadzorings and their fate are a big part of that uncertainty. One might indeed theorize that Shargash was an undead when he fought and dismembered Umath. I am not quite convinced that the demon which rose from the dust next to Umath really was the original planetary son of the south. In many ways, Zolan Zubar embodies the virtues of Humakt. (Still wondering about that "curses sent by women" thing in the Kolating description of the spirit friend from Below...)

An interesting take on the dark men. All of that from the Bear Paw? The Sky Bear is the moving constellation also known as Orlanth's Ring. The Entekosiad has a somewhat cryptic mention of Sedenya following the Spiral Path, too. An alternative theory about the Sky Bear follows below. According to Jar-eel's teachings of Liberation to Aelwrin, the Red Goddess (as Verithurusa) herself was an active part of the killing or rather dismembering of Yelm. (The Dara Happans maintain that it was Murharzarm, the Divine Emperor, who was slain by Rebellus Terminus, not Yelm himself. And the Orlanthi agree that their god slew the Evil Emperor.) Rufelza's victory over the Sky Bear is a big thing, but then there is a story how Verithurusa descended into the Underworld upon her tumbling encounter with Umath, and mated with a god newly arrived there (Umath?). From The Life of Sedenya: It is quite possibly a "I am your mother, Luke" moment. http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1152.html This is where I sort of stomp a foot and say no. And - as a rule - the northern tribes are the Winter Tribes, with the Jorganostelli sort of breaking the pattern. The northernmost Winter Vingkotlings were the Berennethtelli - notorious cat people. If you look at the Dawn Settlement map in the Guide, you will see that the bear-worshipping Odaylings are centered around Cafol, quite a distance from the former Vingkotling, then Heortling tribes. You can make a very small point about the arrow people of Berthestead, an offshoot of the Jorganostelli whose dedication to archery leads them to worship of Odayla. Or rather: the Kitori became the adopted children of the Only Old One (his son having been slain by Eurmal during the Lightbringers' Quest), turning them into something more than just humans (or trolls, or dehori) and able to take the body shape of any of these three. For the early Second Age, the History of the Heortling Peoples confuses this Kitori ability with Arkat's rebirth as a troll, e.g. for Daramhy. While the Kitori (the Only Old One-enabled shapeshifters) remained true to their allegiance to Arkat and his teachings of sorcery, and could reasonable be included under the term of the Arkatings, the troll shape-shifting power that Daramhy used in his personal feud against other Kitori shadowlords did not originate from Arkat. To my knowledge, Arkat never was taught by the Only Old One. Ezkankekko aka Kimantor was a great defender against Chaos, but only a defender, never the attacker Arkat needed to be. Arkat's Command - to re-introduce the ancient Kitori tribute - basically only undid its suspension under Palangio's occupation of Maniria (and no doubt claiming at least as much as taxation for the Bright Empire). Arkat did not institute a new tribute, he only re-instituted the mutual exchange agreements that created the Silver Age and the Unity Council. But with two generations under the fists of Palangio and Lokamayadon, many Heortlings had forgotten that exchange, and the benefits that that had brought. They had shaken off Palangio's yoke, and claimed that result for their own effort, disregarding the crucial aid the Only Old One and Dagori Inkarth had given them, or the fact that they had gone on to harrass Dara Happa while Arkat and his troll allies bore the brunt of the Chaos Fighting marching on Dorastor. There is nothing to support a further breeding of Gwalynkus producing offspring with other Elder Races than the Gold Wheel Dancer he married. That's an unexpected leap into the direction of the Tusk Riders (who IMO really are an admixture of boars to the humans, rather than trolls - check a boar skull next to your two examples). The Kitori followed the superhero trope of never revealing their true identities while on duty, wearing a lead face mask (like the Kimantoring guards of Nochet), a gray goose-feather cloak, and a spear as insignia of their office, regardless whether they chose to take human, troll or dehori shape. (The dehori shape can of course de-materialize, dropping those insignia for that time.) To my knowledge, they never displayed any hybrid body-shape (unless you count the troll shape as a hybrid of human and dehori). The shape you describe is paralleled only in the hybrid shape the Telmori werewolves were gifted by Nysalor and cursed to take on wilddays by Talor. That is a modification of wolf-walking, and so your shape might be a modification of bear-walking. The Kitori originated in the neighborhood of Shadow Plateau in the Gray Age, with neighborhood possibly extending far enough to include Harandings and Aramites. Near Dorastor stretches things a bit. They were the messengers who brought news from other groups of the Unity forces, brought some sustenance from others, and collected some to distribute elsewhere. This was the Shadow Tribute, and it has all the trappings of a scheme to avoid malnutrition by exchanging products with other groups that couldn't be grown locally. These messengers appeared in Kimantoring uniform, as described above. On their travels, they braved the chasms in reality and the unspeakable things that might have emanated from those while the Ritual of the Net was under way in the Underworld. Those chasms slowly closed up, but the Kitori messengers were heroquesters in a broken world when the shadow tribute started, gifted with the powers of Ezkankekko to be able to make it through those dangers. And, while mostly successful, we must assume that there were parties of Kitori who did not make it through to the groups under their care, and it is entirely possible that groups cut off by the failure of a Kitori tribute party succumbed to the depredations of the remainders of the Chaos Age and perished. I wonder whether this time is available for heroquesting. This post-apocalyptic Dark, then Gray, should be worth a rpg of its own, or at least a setting book for one or more of the three Gloranthan games. Tribal deity probably is a better description than just a wyter, but the origin might go back to that. Varzor Kitor's group evidently found or inherited a way to feed Zolan Zubar, and might even have loved him, but they were in all likelihood not of Vingkotling descent. My guess is that they stemmed from the same non-Vingkotling population as the Aramites and the Harandings, worshippers of Darkness, Earth and Storm. The Vingkotlings included many of the older, indigenous groups in their tribes and clans, which is alluded to in the clan questionnaire where names that don't have much meaning or story behind them (yet, or rather any more) are offered for inclusion in the clan, and where the decision is made how to include them (as carls, cottars, or thralls). The Kodigvari tried to swallow the biggest lump, but were overturned and dissolved instead. Both Aramites and Harandings survived apart. The Kitori joined Akez Loradak, the Obsidian Palace and might be subsumed under the "approximately 6,000 trolls", where it is said a sentence earlier "The inhabitants were mainly trolls" clearly suggesting that there were others, too. The Kitori tribe grew through adoption and recruitment. There were Heortlings among the Kitori, like Daramhy, who turned upon the Kitori leadership when they didn't support him in his feud against another of the Kitori. And in a larger sense, all the humans who received the shelter, provision and protection of the Kingdom of Night would be Kitori, but that doesn't address the warlord and shape-shifter discussion we are having right now. There is some confusion about that. For a while, there was a thesis that some darkness-worshipping humans stepped in to keep the presence of all elements in balance. The Kitori in the sense of the messengers were active much earlier. It is quite possible that the majority of the earliest converts to the Kitori state were trolls from Akez Loradak, but I am quite convinced that there were humans among Ezkankekko's recruits from the beginning. He might have started his adoption of others as soon as he overcame his grief about his blood lineage being cut down by Eurmal. That son might have been the (or a) child of Norinel, destined to sire a dynasty and lineage of great Shadowland leaders. According to the Nochet history, Akez Loradak was home to about 3,000 humans during the Greater Darkness, but they returned to Nochet in the Silver Age. They may have left a part of their population behind. The Nochet refugees would have been mostly Earth worshippers, but some Vingkotling descendants and some fisherfolk may have joined in in that protection, and possibly other indigenous Nochet traditions, too. While some families of Nochet found refuge in the Blackmaw, other Darkness-friendly ones may have joined Kimantor and Norinel on their move to Akez Loradak. Or it might be due to a much smaller number of trollkin among the Kitori - it is even possible that the trollkin they have were purchased from the Shadow Plateau population. Kitori breed true in their shapes when mating with a member of the species of that shape, but the offspring might lose the connection to Kyger Litor (shifting to Ezkankekko instead), which might be worse to the trolls than having trollkin offspring who at least maintain that Kyger Litor connection (as do cave trolls). Something like that, or an adoption into the ranks of the Kitori, might have been the secret behind Vamargic Eye-Necklace's great competence for a Great Troll. But then deviant doesn't begin to describe Vamargic... (I played him in a freeform, so he has grown on me.) From the presence of the Ergeshi in Sun Dome County we know that the full Kitori keep mates and offspring who are only part-way into their secrets. The Ergeshi are the human-shape kin, while the trolls of Troll Wood are the troll-shape kin. It is quite likely that there are Dehori-shape kin in the troll woods, too, and some of them might have taken residence in the trees (or rather, the shadows of these trees), making them immune to their troll kin (two words intended). That is possible. There might have been such a trend already since the second century, though, when the Unity Council became more warlike upon contact with the Horse Warlords. Their war took almost 100 years until the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile, only to exchange one fire tribe nuisance with another one. Um, no? You don't bring Hell Darkness to fight the sun unless you intend to lose. The Second Council learned that the hard way, and it took Galanini and Praxian riders to counter the Horse Warlords successfully at Argentium Thri'ile. The Battle of Night and Day continued that trend. Sending the Storm Worshippers to deal with the Sun Worshippers was how to bring that interference down. The foes waiting for Arkat's host were Chaos and the non-Fire brightness of Illumination. Zolan Zubar's six foes don't include Chaos directly, but address many of the secondary horrors presented in Cults of Terror. (Curses sent by women is an interesting sixth foe here...) The Dara Happan Hill of Gold monikers of the Cruel God and the Selfish God may extend to other participants, including Shargash instead of ZZ. And instead of Inora, Sedenya might crop up with her power of Reflection. That quest is loaded with tons of weird possible associations. Basically, this is the relationship King Heort had with Zolan Zubar. I had a closer look at bear skull anatomy when discussing Kalin's choices for the Harrek depiction in Prince of Sartar, and again for Eric Vanel's Harrek and Jar-eel statue project. A major difference between the troll skull and the bear skull is the attachment of the vertebra. The bear neck comes in from behind, whereas the troll neck comes in from below (allowing the much enlarged brain case). The dentition should have similarities - both are opportunist omnivores, in case of the trolls extending even to lignin plant matter and minerals. The tusks may be mainly for digging, as with the Aardwolf dentition (which I found under the insectivore entry in wikipedia, insects being the staple diet for the majority of the uz).

In a reply to this EnWorld article a user with a history of mental health issues in the family addressed how making the corruption from exposure to the horrors of the Great Old Ones and their minions is quite different from what the modern view of mental health issues brings, and sort of asks for a better way to phrase the consequences of these experiences. Playing in the 1920ies, the terminology used in the game is time-appropriate, but for a modern game of Cthulhu some different vocabulary might be appreciated:

Plenty. Prior to engine-powered sailing, this shape appears in a number of evolution of marine vessels, like when the landlubber carpenters of the Hanseatic Cities looked at the concept of the nordic knorr merchant ship and started with a clinker built and keeled ship using techniques they knew from tiling roofs. Later designs also had flat bottomed ships of greater tonnage. Flat-bottomed ships turn up where tides and falling dry are a common occurrance, or when you have to pass sand bars. They tend to be harder to keep on course, but there are numerous cases of side swords added to such constructions to regain the advantage a keel line offers. This kind of hull design can also evolve from river barges that need to deal with sand bars. There is flat bottomed as in "has a keel but extends horizontally from it for much of its belly", and there is flat bottomed as in "you start with a flat raft and add walls to it." I tend to expect the Esrolian merchantman to be of the keeled variety (and Jeff's example picture just proved that). Even though living in Esrolia, most of the shipbuilders there are of fisherfolk (i.e. Pelaskite) ethnicity, and heirs of the boat building technology that also resulted in the galleys which were copied by the Quinpolic League. I am a bit curious how this quite divergent design was made to be acceptable using the Dormal rites - I think the Dormal exploratory ship was a slightly tubby keeled ship mainly for sailing, with oars only as auxiliary means of propulsion (much like the nordic knarr) and not the main mode. But then the Holy Country has access to some of the most accomplished magical traditions able to deal with the seas, so that development may not have taken them more than a few years.

IMO or IMG there are several types of Esrolian commercial ships. It starts with Dormal's all-purpose exploration ships that are used in naval battle against the Alatan pirates using the same type of ship, with a loss for the Kethaelans away from their merman support. Sailed, with auxiliar ores. Soon afterwards, dedicated grain barges with greater cargo capacity and less suitability for naval conflict re-appear. These tubby sailing vessels soon are found along the southern coast of Genertela, trafficking between Melib and Noloswal. Either type will take the eastern route that bypasses Corflu. I am not quite sure how well the Corflu port is suited for the bigger grain barges. A third type will be a cross-purposed oared galley for express deliveries, basically a warship used for transport of messages, low volume wares and important people.

Yeah. Isn't it typical that you aren't told about this upon entry into the city?

While Orlanth had plenty foes, most of those he vanquished beyond maintaining a culture that produces artistic representations. The Kralori and other easterners don't differentiate much between Orlanth and other foes from the west. The Dara Happans recognize him as a foe, and reference him by a number of names and representations - especially Plentonius, whose research mostly was done prior to extended contact between Dara Happa and the Theyalans other than battles with the horse warlords. Harald Smith aka @jajagappa had a nice downsized version of Orlanth in his Imther mythology published in New Lolon Gospel - non-canonical, but highly enlightening nonetheless. Quite often, the enemy storm god is known by a different name, and ends up with a different subsequent myth. How much Orlanth is in Aerlit, and vice versa? What about Kahar, the storm god ancestor of the Zabdamar, or Desero in Pamaltela? The various herding tribes that descended on Fronela, Peloria and Pelanda? How much did the Lightbringers "re-unite" such deities, how much did Harmast, how much did the God Learners? The storm god leadership role doesn't automatically mean that Orlanth was in charge. For many activities, Vadrus was the warleader of Storm, and Umath himself liked a good shake-up of others, too. "Violence is always an option" reaches a long way back. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the enemies of the EWF continue to picture Orlanth as a dragon.

Pavis and Big Rubble p. 110, the Lunar Guard at the Northern Gate (or if you use the boxed set, in the players' guide to the city, Welcome to the City. HQ Pavis p. 283 expands the original text by some more narrative and drops the list of prohibited items for a stricter "weapons only for registered weapon-masters" rule. The bold text (my emphasis) was inserted in the dialogue bit from the Pavis Box. No fiddling around with peace bands and similar stuff as per the RQ2 supplement and its table, just a plain "no weapons" policy. (You can almost hear the NRA protests...) So basically adventurers on the way to the Rubble will have to use a carry-bag or similar to bring their armament to the city limits where they may don them under the eyes of the Lunar guards. And Pavis is a place that welcomes adventurers (or at least their money, having made an industry out of the Rubble expeditions), unlike most other places. All of this is the consequence of Lunar occupation, of course, and it is quite possible that the Sartarite city laws (which used to apply to New Pavis as well) were a lot more redneck and laissez-faire in their stance towards weapons. (Lawspeakers may have been among the loudest dissatisfied voices, with their chance to participate in a weregeld settlement so sadly diminished.) I sort of wonder how normal the presence of a bored spear-and-shield wielding guard at ornamental positions will be both under Lunar and under Sartarite regimes. Both chiefs and officers impress by the number and equipment of their bodyguards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are living statues under arms distributed all over the place. Gate guards yes, at some state of readiness, but guards flanking the entrances to official buildings?

Campaigning in Fire Season means that the only recent harvest will be hay. Grain reserves in the villages will be low, but there will be fresh vegetables and not quite ripe grain on the stalks, providing decent fodder if harvested prematurely, but miserable food. If the foragers have access to agricultural spells like Sunripen that might help them a lot. That would mean campaigning in Earth Season, meaning you need a standing army uninvolved in agricultural activities (other than foraging). This is the downside to "every man a warrior" in chiefdom societies, but much less of a problem for societies that have standing armies like the Lunars or the West. True. They will also hide their able-bodied young folk to avoid them being press-ganged into auxiliaries or as servants or stress relief company to the warriors. To little avail, really, because the best foragers are those who come from agricultural places like this and who have seen foraging from the other side. Smaller scale foraging is done by the servants of the warriors on a daily level. That's part of camp life.

The Egyptian campaigns in northern Canaan were grounded in well-prepared logistics, too, up to and including preparing ships for overland transport so that the Euphrates could be crossed at will. Likewise the great Persian advance on Greece under Xerxes was a masterpiece of logistics. Nevertheless, the presence of a huge army is always going to cost much of the present harvest and of the herds remaining within easy reach, regardless how good the logistics are. The devastations left by the Cimbri and Teutones were nothing permanent, but may have threatened or destroyed the existence of local farmers. But that's a risk that comes with the occupation, really.

They use coins, so of course they are way more advanced than any earth bronze age arrangement. But I don't think we should underestimate the bronze age and "barbarian" iron age ability to organize huge troop movements. The Migration Age is full of entire tribes taking to a migratory form, and maintaining that _in force_ for years. Cimbri and Teutons were on the march for years, giving Marius time to reform the legions and train them up to a standard to be able to stand through their onslaught and cause damage. The migration of the Goths (which included taking Rome by force) was likewise a mobile force maintained for years. Caesar's report on the attempted Helvetii migration lingers at their thorough preparations, giving up their sedentary achievements and producing a train that easily had to be as efficient as Caesar's own. Rather than admiring the Romans, I think we should look at Alexander the Great or Hannibal's achievements (and failures). I don't really see the Gloranthan armies as following the Marian reforms to the military, but closer to the older form of hoplites being accompanied by servants or slaves, doubling the head-count of such a unit with non- or semi-combatants (those servants often doubled as skirmishers in the early phases of a battle if free men). The existence of Angus Farquilis as Master of Wagons indicates that the Lunars do indeed recognize logistics as a key to operating in a country without leaving it devastated (as most of my barbarian examples apparently did, and as did military forces as late as the 30 years war armies). Another unexpected place to find masters of logistics are the Plains of Prax which require herds to support significant military forces. If you look more closely, that goes for the Independents (who get to "cheat" in the Nomad Gods boardgame), too.

I was looking for an orthodox Malkioni practice (not that I don't quite consider the Rokari orthodox) that mirrors some form of ancestor contact and learning from ancestors. The only such hint in the Guide is The Families Book, one of the Writings of Zzabur. The Brithini and Rokari doctrine of dissolution of the self after Death is of course some strong contra-indication for there being spirits/souls/mind expressions available to contact through an Axis Mundi-like ritual. In 2013, Jeff mentioned in an exchange with Jon Quaife that the Malkioni do believe in the journey to the Underworld and meeting the Judge of the Dead. http://www.glorantha.com/docs/malkioni-culture/ But I notice that most Malkioni sorcery schools are extremely ignorant of the underworlds, as their magic doesn't work there as expected. There used to be one school or order specialized in exploring the underworld and using its magic, but I cannot find it right now. Stygians strong in Darkness may have a different relation to sorcery in the Underworld. That may be part of what scares the Rokari and what scared the Makanists. But mostly I mention this weakness in dealing with the Underworld as a reason why the sorcerers aren't well-versed with ancestor worship. (Their Resurrection ritual is going to be interesting in this regard...) One aspect that triggers my academic curiosity is the passage of time in the Underworld. The Brithini and Rokari agree that the soul dissipates once it leaves the Middle World, and surely it will deteriorate. But if time doesn't quite apply to the Underworld, does that mean that basically all souls of those who died are still "in contact range" once they have encountered the Judge of the Dead? And is the Judge of the Dead for the Malkioni their Fifth Action Founder?

Hippocrates appears to be sufficiently grounded as a real person in a time when the gods were seen as more remote, but he was given a divine descendance from Asclepios/Aesculap, the divine healer, with about ten generations distance. Hrestol and Fenela don't appear to have had a shrine or similar to their mother, and there is no burial site mentioned. In a way, a burial site acts as a shrine to the ancestors buried in that place, a place for veneration (or sacrifice of flowers or similar). A necropolis like the Antones Estates of Nochet is powerful.

If you have a powerful female-descent lineage, the descendants can spread over well over a dozen clans in multiple tribes within the third generation in a patrilocal society like the majority of the Quivini. There is some back and forth, so a great-granddaughter has some likelihood to appear in the same clan as the ancestress (that's the Triaty sequence), but generally the direct female lineage will be extended over many clans. The more magically powerful a lineage is, the greater the probability that these women will be married to unusual clans to cement a peace. As to Onelisin's marriage, she was named Cat-Witch. That indicates the morals of a Yinkini, and frankly makes it surprising if her three daughters (likely born over the course of five years or so) all have the same father. That man would have to offer quite some status and yet considerable tolerance. The Ostling Four-Wolf incident reads as if Onelisin and her daughters chanced upon the Telmori king in an isolated location, away from most other human habitation. This could be a place where Onelisin retreated to practice herbal lore and similar, or it could indicate that her relationship with her husband's clan had soured, and that she did live away from its center although still somewhere on the tula. (Her having her three daughters with her indicates that she hasn't been divorced out of the clan.) The alternative would be that Onelisin was powerful and prestigious enough to be able to demand matrilocal marriage, leaving the offspring with her rather than with the father's clan. The problem I see here is that apart from the royal dynasty, she has no clan. On the other hand, if she still resided in Boldhome, there would have been opportunity to interact with the wolf-men, and the scene with the wounded wolf-king could move from a back in the woods encounter to an obscure wing of the royal palace. But that's not the vibe I get from the story.

What a nice idea for a digression. Jar-eel relates the murder of the Emperor in a syncretic myth featuring Orlanth, Sedenya, Tolat (aka Shargash), and Artia. However, the question is a bit difficult, because you are dealing with the Jenarong dynasty here, or maybe three dynasties (Hyaloring and two different horse warlord lineages, over time merging into one people (at latest after their defeat at Argentium Thri'ile). Urban Dara Happan lore surely was fed into the Jenarong emperor cult, and so the Murharzarm and Ovosto lore may have been present. The Dara Happans call the slayer Rebellus Terminus, and there isn't really a need for this person to have been identified with the specific son of Umath at the time. The last rebel, or the rebel ending the golden reign of Yelm, is just one of many rebels, the one who brings the power of Death. So, how is Death identified in Peloria? The wasp-headed version of Humakt found in Pelanda? The Bat of Rinliddi? Or was it the one, Unbreakable Sword to the Dara Happans? At least two of the rebels shown by Jar-eel are "planetary sons" of Yelm, Sedenya and Tolat. The entire affair may have been a fratricide. Both of the Planetary Offspring had gone to Hell and back. Artia the Bat surely had done so, too, but I cannot really identify her with one of the original eight planets. And then there is the fourth rebel. Was there a fourth rebel in the first place? And could it have been Lodril? One could think that Peloria was a bowl of irregular storms after Umath was disintegrated in the Crater at the White Camp at the hands of Shargash emerging from Hell. Maybe these fragmented storms were slowly integrated by the sons of Umath. There was the Vadrudi host, lots of small and often nameless storms who followed Storm Tribe's best fighter and raider. A Wild Hunt ravaging land and sea. Entekos, the Gentle Air, was the only planet holding to its original position when Umath invaded. Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses has a different Sky God emperor instead, Harono, and remains with a local Vestkarthen whose sons nevertheless are all around, like Empty Mountain in the Mislari. There is a weird co-dependence between the Storm and the Mountain-Maker tribe. Some giants or mountains get killed, but most get co-opted. If you subscribe to the Dara Happan take of the event - Murharzarm killed, Yelm disintegrating - then the co-conspirators from among the Planetary "Sons" would be fratricides. There appears to have been a prophecy that one of the descendants of Sartar would absolve the Telmori from the Werewolf Curse. Exterminating the tribe surely did end the curse, but... I wonder what brought Salinarg so close to the Wolfmen. Harsaltar was eight at the Fall of Boldhome, so Salinarg has to have been dallying with the werewolves already in the middle of Terasarin's reign. Quite likely the contact was limited to the Boldhome Telmori, but still it is an unusual thing for an openly acclaimed member of the Sartar dynasty to mingle with this uncomfortable bunch of bodyguards, and to take a wife from among them. I guess Kostajor's lineage through Onelisin wasn't exactly well advertised among the Sartarites. In a way, Kostajor's branch of the family was the closest part of the inofficial dynasty to Argrath. Onelisin and her offspring disappear from the public view as if she was dis-inherited. There was some speculation that Onelisin stepped up as successor of Saronil after Sarotar's untimely death, and that Jarolar may have had to remove her from the dynastic court in order to attain his father's throne. It cannot have helped that Saronil died rescuing one of Onelisin's daughters, even if the feud with the mostali was started when he used dwarf technology to build a temple to Orlanth. Somehow, paternal descent became the norm of all Princes of Sartar up to and including Kallyr. Argrath is the first to claim maternal descent, and that through three generations. Kostajor's descendants had only one generation of female descent.

Are you talking about the Argrath who uses Lunar magic and illumination as one component of his new-fangled warlock units? The Telmori wildday rampages are the result of a gift from Nysalor (who may well be seen as an avatar of Sedenya) which granted them the impervious skin alongside with their ability to take that in-between shape at will, and then a curse of Talor which compellled them to take that shape on wilddays, and to let go of all rationality. For a certain period. The Eleven Lights and the Eaglebrown Warlocks were Argrath's ace in the hole at the Battle of Sword Hill. The Eaglebrowns continue to appear in the muster of the Magical Union. The Eleven Lights aren't there in the boardgame (which precedes first mention of the Eleven Lights by at least 12 years, though). The Telmori bodyguard was one reason the uneasy peace between the Telmori and their neighbors held while there were Princes of Sartar. Telmori are cursed with a gift that may register as chaotic. This puts them into a similar position as e.g. cave trolls with their ability to regenerate damage. Outside of Wilddays, they are powerful, exotic beast-warrior teams, almost fighting as a single entity in two bodies. On Wilddays, they retreat in order to keep the peace. We know that Ostling Four-Wolf both was a Telmori, and somehow wasn't. It would be interesting to know whether the Helkos Brothers were subject to the curse, and whether Salinarg's queen was a normal cursed Telmori woman, or also a descendant of Kostajor possibly free of the curse. I don't think so. Argrath aims higher than Broyan. For all the talk about Broyan instituting a Vingkotling kingship (which in the end he failed to do, not leaving a dynasty behind him), Broyan never had the chance to step forward and seek the greater Kingship of Dragon Pass that individuals like Arim, Sartar, Tarkalor and Moirades had. Argrath goes for that within two years after becoming Prince of the Quivini. For comparison: It took Sartar two years of contest to win over the Feathered Horse Queen in addition to significant preparatory efforts to win the contest for her hand. Tarkalor became King of Dragon Pass in his sixth year as (Vingkotling dynasty) Prince of Sartar. Argrath gets his first Sacred Kingship within four years of his return to Dragon Pass, and then he goes on to get recognized by the Kethaelans and enters a second such contest (more arduous, it appears) for Sacred Kingship of Saird. What does this Sacred King ship mean? There was no office of King of Dragon Pass at the Dawn, but there was the equivalent of it: the Bearer of Kero Fin's Necklace. The individual who held this office at the Dawn was Aram ya Udram, not a Heortling, but an Earth- and Darkness-worshipping human whose offspring went to become the Tusk Riders. The Heortling tribes at the Dawn had three higher authorities that they would accept - the High King of the Heortlings, the Only Old One who ruled the Kingdom of Night, to which the Heortlings confessed, and the sacred spouse of Kero Fin. Given the overall harmony of the first 150 years of history, summons to war by any of these three authorities would have been rare, and eagerly sought out by those hungry for glory in battle. Argrath Saga never has Argrath claiming the title of the High King of the Heortlings. I think the last individual who may have done so could have been Finelvanth the Flyer. But he does don the mantle of the succession of the Only Old One and Belintar after he fights Harrek to a stand-still in the Rightarm Islands (the second time he survives a direct confrontation with that superhero). Two out of three ain't bad. Does Argrath become an Emperor? His dealings with the Lodrili (as far as I am concerned, two l are enough for these people) might be seen to push him in such a role for Peloria outside of Saird, but the insistence of calling their overlord emperor comes from the Dara Happans, not the Pelorian peasants, who had accepted rulership of the Shahs of Carmania with little military persuasion (most of that went to their Dara Happan overseers and whatever resistance they could cough up). So, does Argrath have to face the Alexander conundrum? I don't think so. When he "liberates" Peloria from Lunar Liberation through bringing Sheng Seleris back, he has no authority in Peloria outside of Saird (and just maybe Talastar). When he overcomes Sheng and sends him back to from where he rescued him, he genuinely liberates Peloria, and even though he had brought the monster back, I suppose that the Pelorians are genuinely grateful for removing Sheng again. I notice the absence of speculation about how Sheng affects the lands east of Pent. I don't see him extend his influence all the way beyond the Snow Line into Beast Rider territory, or to Teshnos, but northern and central Kralorela and Ignorance would be as logical targets for Sheng, at least after re-taking the Lunar Empire. From the Kralorelan section, Godunya most likely already has left this world by then, with no clear successor. (How many Kralorelan emperors named their successor?) Interesting speculation. Although one might phrase it differently: does Argrath lead Orlanth and Ernalda through utuma to a transcendent existence, alongside Sedenya and possibly the other major stakeholders in the highest levels of Gloranthan magical authority?

Basically the description of the Wolf Runners in the Dragon Pass boardgame tells us that they are Telmori subject to Gbaji's curse to become uncontrolled monsters on wilddays. King of Sartar tells us how White Bull and allies exterminated and skinned the Telmori, wearing their furs afterwards, and gaining the name. p.19 in the hardcover edition says: All the later scenarios in the boardgame give access to the Wolf Runners. That might be a historical inaccuracy, or it might be read as a way the magic was conserved. According to CHDP Kallyr has the support of the Telmori, even though she probably had been among those from the Kheldon who fought against them in 1607. Minaryth Blue mentions Argrath's quarrel with the Telmori in the same year that Argrath married the FHQ and Minaryth Blue (and possibly Argrath) fought and killed Dinacoli.

moved to the Telmori thread

The Daka Fal cult of Cults of Prax is a Praxian tradition, so I don't doubt that the Praxians contact spirits. I am a lot less convinced that Duke Raus, a documented ancestor worshipper, contacts spirits, too, and the ancestors as per King of Dragon Pass are visiting from the Godworld (or an underworld, not sure about that, and that's why I asked). Indeed, full agreement there. Interesting opinion. On the other hand, ancestral spirits crave the embrace of mortal flesh, and will go into deals with descendants to be able to experience living bodies once again. Froalar and his followers did. No idea what sent Duke Neleos and various other Greater Darkness colonists packing. But I am talking about later exodus movements. Arkat's Crusade was the first within Time that I know of - it appears that the participants all remained in Genertela, to wit Arolanit, and did not return to Brithos. There are two documented further waves of Brithini immigration in the Seshnegi Kings List, and it was those I was talking about. So no, you did not yet send any denial of this. Unless you need a very united Brithos to stand behind you for the project to return the island to Danmalastan, with such measly side effects like drowning Fronela, which made Prince Snodal perform the theomachy of the God of the Silver Feet. And this couldn't apply to other groups who have differences with Zzabur while remaining true to Malkion's Laws? So the recorded memories of or about a deceased person are as much as the dead ancestor has to impart as knowledge (and knowledge means magic). I wonder about the Rokari creed. It appears harsh and hopeless to me, lots of fire and brimstone but hardly any promise of a better place in either this world or whatever comes after. It is known that Zzabur is incapable of doing and knowing what the Creator did, so there is proof that even Erasanchula Reason and Logic cannot write down or otherwise communicate what lies beyond. Wisdom, and direction in their decisions. Like Hrestol did when he conceived the concept of the Men of All or the theomachy of Ifftala. So the question is whether this might be the form of ancestor worship hinted at in the Praxian Daka Fal write-up from Cults of Prax. The restriction not to be initiated to any rune cult is almost impossible to maintain for Heortlings. Pelorians are surprisingly a lot less likely to initiate, so there might be a stronger direct ancestor worship. But we know that Heortlings worship their ancestors, and possibly including individual ones, too. To them the Daka Fal _cult_ as written in Cults of Prax is worthless. Note that Hrestol spread such ideas on Brithos, too, when he visited. In order to summon them up you have to grant them some form of perpetuity after Death, something hotly denied by Zzaburism and Rokarism. You can summon up Erasanchula, Burtae or Srvuali (or spirits) who never were mortal and who accept worship, and in all likelihood the summoning will be almost indistinguishible from worship when perceived from the other side of the veil, but you cannot summon what was destroyed and subjected to entropy. You might contact the inhabitants of the Godtime (or whatever the sorcerers called it prior to God Learner monomyth) by visiting and interacting with them on the hero planes, but that's decidedly different from reaching through the veil. Now no sorcerer would deny that errant and disgusting fragments of identity of worshippers can be forced back from whichever wrong limbo they get stuck in. It is a filthy and hostile place, tearing at the substance of their magic and consuming it, but it can be done.

I think that the single gender species, including beastfolk, can have offspring with a number of related entities. Minotaurs would regard both human and cattle females as suitable partners for sex, with cattle the more usual option. Swan maidens have famously mated with Heortlings, the Hiording clan of the Colymar is descended from one. (Pretty much the entirety of this snippet of Wayland's saga applies, I would guess.) Elurae should be able to get children from successful seductions of human males. The children will always be fox-women, though, but they might inherit a few traits from the father. Or, perhaps as likely, the fathers might find themselves missing a few traits, only to observe them in their elura offspring should they ever meet.

Does this acknowledge language families and subfamilies? Personally, I can read a few languages without having to use a dictionary for every third word, and a couple more with such aid, but most of these are Germanic or Romance Indo-European languages, with Finnish my only halfway literacy level non-Indoeuropean language. To contrast, a tenant of mine from Kenia speaks English (a Germanic Indo-European language) (and learns German), Swahili (a creole based on Semitic languages) and a tribal (Bantu) language. That's much more of a linguistic spread stance than mine.

I wonder why everyone is so sure that ancestor worship deals with spirits. Where do these ancestors that can be called in before they get re-incarnated reside? If it is an Underworld (not necessarily the charred Wonderhome that now is Yelm's underground realm, but possibly a spirit home like Aldrya's Depths, Ty Kora Tek's cavern, or other such places), it is a place where there is no clear division between spirits, divine entities, or even sorcerous essences (although the latter tend to regard the Underworld as antithetical to their state of energy patterns). The Axis Mundi pierces the veil to wherever these ancestors reside. If there are plenty Orlanthi among the Praxians, as David pulled the numbers, these would have another Afterlife in addition to the Great Herd, which is Karulinoran in the Gods World (beyond the Hero Planes, although the usual starting point into the planes for Orlanthi questers). As an aside, what happens when an ancestor re-incarnates as a new child? Do the descendants lose contact to the remains of individuality that reside in the respective afterlives? The re-incarnated ancestor will be a different individual, sharing some, but almost always not all traits of their former existence. (The reborn incarnations of Mani of the Rubble are a significant exception to this. If they still are canonical.) In most Afterlives, Death causes a (degree of) loss of individuality, or at least a severe change thereof. Brithini expect complete dissolution of their individuality patterns of thought and energy in Solace. It is unclear whether they expect to be able to contact their grandparents who lived before Death entered the world in one of the Hero Planes. Being the Logician tribe and big on fixing Thought and Logic in documents, the Brithini might consult diaries (or something similar, possibly obituaries collected when they died) of their ancestors as a way of both honoring their ancestors and of learning from them. There are Hrestoli (and hence there were Makanists) believing in re-incarnation. Orthodox Zzaburists don't/mustn't, and Rokari mustn't. We know that Zzabur cleansed his doctrine by sending out the dissidents, much in the same way the Protestants of Europe used the USA as a dump for their weirder cousins in confession. I am not convinced that Zzabur would regard the Arolanit Brithini as equals to those he decided to keep under his let's say benevolence. Of the rest of these emigrants, most joined their (then Hrestoli) cousins on the mainland, with only tentative emigrants to Sog City/Akem or Arolanit and maybe God Forgot able to continue a Brithini existence resisting old age by going through the ancient motions, aging ever so slowly. It isn't clear whether any of the Second Age emigrants from Brithos died of old age before the cataclysms ended the Middle Sea Empire and the lives of millions of its inhabitants. Quite a lot of these emigrants ended up in the parts of Seshnela and Jrustela which were claimed by the cataclysms that sank much of the God Learner empire (starting 1049 with the arrival of the Luatha), but there were survivors from those cataclysms in Genertela at least, flooding into safer places like Tanisor, and exile Brithini may very well have been among those. The Guide statement on Hrestoli belief in re-incarnation is bloody obscure, and it seems to contradict the Malkioni doctrine we are served in the chapter on Western culture. However, that chapter is written mostly from a Rokari perspective, with some mentions how the New Idealist Hrestoli differ from that. While this does cover the official religious doctrine of the vast majority of Malkioni in Glorantha, neither Rokarism nor New Hrestoli Idealism are direct successors of the previous practices, but there may be significant numbers of only outwardly converted Malkioni. Southern Seshnela definitely has these, as per Guide, e.g. among the Pithdarans. But the Galvosti are a branch of Hrestolism that departed from Seshnelan orthodoxy possibly in the Gbaji Wars or the interregnum that preceded it, which means that this belief in re-incarnation may have been a Dawn Age development, or even older. I wonder about Hrestol and his mother, Xemela. Xemela is counted among the Ascended Masters of Malkionism, which does seem to imply some continued existence, if not of her individuality, then maybe of her thoughts and teachings, the essence of her mind. To the Logicians, this might be a form of philosophical afterlife. Xemela's self-sacrifice falls into the Grey Age, IMO, possibly starting it for the Seshnegi colonies. Maybe the "ancestors worshipped by the people of Seshneg as if they were gods" were these ascended masters. And just possibly many of the Danmalastan ancestors might somehow have qualified in their closeness to Malkion, so that this ancestor worship is somehow limited to those whose manifestations of their minds still are in any way approachable. Similar to the idea of Brithini obituaries for those who they lost. Sorcerers will be quick to point out that the energy patterns that they see making up the minds of individuals are far from identical to such conserved expressions of these minds. They might also claim that a re-incarnation of the energies that made up a mind won't be in a pattern that they could identify with the former person's mind. But do they have the ultimate authority and knowledge about the world? Exposure to chthonic practices (which include a belief in re-incarnation) comes already with the marriages of Malkion to the mothers of the Caste ancestors, especially Dronar's (or Dromal's) mother, Kala. These names come tied to (but left out of) the Brithos text in Revealed Mythology p.25f, the canonicity of which I doubted but which @Jeff pronounced True and Canonical for the Malkioni, alongside that much longer Zzaburist diatribe that precedes it, so the canonicity of Phlia, Kala and other wives of Malkion are a bit in doubt, but Jelela (mentioned as mother of Waertag) survives in the name of the city of Jelelawal in Arolanit. When the Guide says that Hrestoli sects believe in re-incarnation, it might simply mean that this is a thing the Rokari suppressed, and anything non-Rokari is easily subsumed in terms like Hrestoli or, if applicable, Stygian. In this case, it looks like a pre-Stygian notion which may be present in various Stygian creeds, too, although there the notion may as well have come from the non-Malkioni influences. Another potential source for this belief comes from Hykimi Ancestor Worship that may have been adapted to the beast warrior societies which even the Rokari did not dissolve, despite their blatantly Hsunchen origin. It might be a case of "Wolf Runners" changing from Telmori to the warband which claims to have exterminated the Telmori (one of the weirder things in the Argrath Saga, and one I don't quite think of as true), but more likely is a post- (and counter-) factual declaration of such. So, we have both the Warrior Caste (if maybe only post-Brithini) and the Farmer/Workman Caste (already Brithini or pre-Brithini) with a good access to ancestor worship and re-incarnation proof. That covers 98% of the Malkioni.

Cattle for instance are mammals and so fall into the category of storm beasts as much as earth beasts. If you take the Praxian/God Learner genealogy, there are Hykim, Mikyh, Umath and an Earth deity (hard to say which top tier mother goddess) lining up as grandparents of the herds. But for the humans, there is no racial element to choose either. Why for an elura? The choice of element could be personal, and defining the character's personality besides being a fox woman. Illusion is the rune given to Eurmal in ownership, so that fits just as well. Even Mobility/Change works for a Trickster (ask the Dara Happans or the Imtherians). The Elura description (except for the part about shape-shifting) sounds very much like the female complement to the satyrs. The only mention of fox-women in the Guide appears to be for the Jaubon (Kralorela) city of Xianwei. Everything said there fits with the description in Sartar Companion, so there is no reason to assume that the two populations of fox women on both side of Genert's Garden (or the ruins thereof) are different species. We don't have any information when and how these two populations came to be, and came to be separated. It is quite likely that there were Elurae in Genert's Garden, perishing along with a multitude of other peoples when Chaos invaded. So why do you rank goats as storm and cattle as earth, and not vice versa? Thed was a herd goddess much like Eiritha but for choice of her Umathson. There are numerous other goat mother deities away from Dragon Pass, most of them either Earth goddesses or beast spirits. Satyrs are known for their wiles to get nymphs and other females to share wherever they rest. Minotaurs and manticores are usually considered not that quick of wit, but that won't stop minotaurs from doing "pranks" like drunk adolescent soccer fans. Young male centaurs are as much a plague as Grazer or Praxian braves wishing to prove themselves as eligible partner for females, and might engage in abduction of females or similar clicheed pastimes.

Why do you think that Beastmen (even ones shared with Kralorela) necessarily need an element? It is easy to assign Sun/Fire to the centaurs and Storm to the minotaurs, swan maidens to Sea/Water and the manticores could take Darkness, but what would you do about satyrs, Earth? None of the fire-stealers are particularly fiery, if you look at Eurmal or Raven. I don't quite see Disorder for the fox ladies, either - mischief is part of all beast folk.