Jeff

11 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Here's where I disagree.  Cash loot is easy of course.

But what's the proper tithe on the one piece of iron armor from Berevenos (Dragon of Thunder Hills)?  How about a Hippogriff (Pegasus Plateau)?  Etc...

First off that stuff is damn rare. Second off, if you get an iron panoply, the rightful thing is to give the whole damn thing to the temple. Unless you are a rune master, you probably aren't going to use it anyways and this will buy you powerful favours. And if you are a rune master and you offer it to your god, odds are you are going to be told to take it from the temple and use it in the service of the temple. And even if you aren't, if you have been a diligent and devoted member of the temple, you might get told that anyway.

So actually it is pretty easy. 

Now the Prince of Sartar is normally able to also levy a head tax. This is an annual payment of a single silver coin made by every "free" (including priests, nobles, etc, but not including tenants) adult in the kingdom. That raises a surprising amount of money but is completely dwarfed by the toll revenues.

And a legion of scribes keep tally of these tolls. 

For more information on where Sartar gets its money, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-money-and-war/

On 11/19/2023 at 1:13 AM, Jose-san said:

I'm curious about how people manage taxes in their campaigns.

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

 

This is a tithe that represents what you are expected to offer to the temple as part of normal initiate status. Remember most people are farmer-herders. So for most people that is harvest, milk products, meat, wool, etc. Loot from enemies, profit from trade caravans are also easy to work out. 

This is really easy for the main cults - in Sartar, Orlanth and Ernalda are the patron gods of most people. We might have an annual tally kept by a scribe that keeps track of this, and the priests perform the usual blessings for folk who follow the traditions. Those who try to withhold from the gods might find themselves troubled by the spirit of retribution or might even be placed under a Ban by the priests.

There are often other renders given to rulers. An assembly might decide that everyone needs to pony up for some big expense - like preparation for war, building walls or roads, hiring mercenaries, etc. The assembly gathers and agrees to it. Maybe everyone agrees to pay a second tithe of the harvest or give part of their moveable property (herds) to the cause. The Prince of Sartar has certainly convened such assemblies in the past. Again scribes are used to keep track of who paid and how much. There are also tolls paid to use city markets, etc. that are levied by the rulers of the cities (or by the Prince).

The biggest source of money in Sartar are tolls on caravans. Given that almost ALL the trade between Peloria and the rest of the world, and almost ALL trade between Prax and the rest of the world, goes through Sartar, this is a huge amount of revenue. As a result, the Prince of Sartar traditionally enjoys more wealth than a Lunar satrap. As this is largely imposed on outsiders, it is also popular with the tribes.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

With a last, lingering bit of Rune Magic from when Earth was trying to keep Air a peaceful god (trying to stop the disorder, the chaos that is Storm):  Tame Bull.

I need to make it very clear - Air is not associated with Chaos. Any more than Fire/Sky or Darkness or Fertility are. The only element that has an intrinsic tie to Chaos is Moon and that is because the Red Goddess is a Chaos deity. 

I'd say the question is framed in a manner that kind of misses the point. The Red Emperor always is the Red Emperor. That's his divine personhood. But there are many masks the Red Emperor has worn, mortal frames for the Red Emperor. Those were all the Red Emperor, but they were also distinct persons. 

Most banditry in Sartar is socially sanctioned. Robbery, cattle theft, extortion, etc. Most "bandits" are going to be Orlanth Adventurous bands. After Kallyr is proclaimed Prince, they need to be careful about robbing folk on the royal roads, but there are going to be bands that ignore that proscription or are even tolerated by the new Prince. There are also a few Lanbril rings in Sartar - for example the High Roaders are footboards that operate on the Royal Roads. 

There are those who operate outside of clan and temple, or are actually Praxians operating inside of Sartar. That's going to be Storm Bull, Waha, and Gagarth. Of those Gagarth is the worst.

Finally there are those non-human bandits - dark trolls and trollkin, bachelor centaurs, spiritually maladjusted dragonewts, etc.

Some of the more organized bandit gangs are: 

·       The Red Knives: These bandits are believed to be based in Tarsh, but they range from Western Sartar to the Grazelands.

·       The Moon-Busters: These bandits operate throughout the Far Place and attack Lunar caravans and supply trains. They are believed to be from Giant’s Walk. 

·       Nightwood Trolls: This gang of dark trolls and trollkin are from the Troll Woods. They plague South Sartar and Sun Dome County.

·       Dragonbeak Gang: This gang of dragonewt brigands can be found anywhere in Dragon Pass. They have crested dragonewts as scouts, and demi-bird riding beaked dragonewts provide the heavy muscle. Their base is unknown.

·       The Wild Ones: This gang can be found throughout East Sartar and the verge with Prax. They are believed to be a Pol-Joni group and are as notorious as rustlers as they are as highwaymen.

Not to be a party pooper, but I don't think "ideology" plays that much of a role in most Gloranthan societies. People have personal connections - clan, tribe, temples, individuals, etc. -  and initiatory experiences. So if I am an initiate of Orlanth, I have had an initiatory experience and I have have a personal connection with the god Orlanth. He's my patron and I can wield some of his power. Now the Orlanth cult has its likes and dislikes, but these are going to be tied to my initiatory experience, the deeds of the god (some of which I have witnessed and experienced), and the history of the cult. 

The Lunar Empire is not particularly ideological. It is the worldly domain of the Red Goddess, entrusted to the Red Emperor - her son and head of the Yelm cult. At the very apex of most Lunar cults are the Red Goddess initiates, who are Illuminated but the overwhelming majority of Lunars are not Illuminated. Most are just Seven Mothers initiates, who have had an experience that COULD lead them on the path to Illumination, but usually does not. Most people offer lay member worship to the Red Emperor as the god-emperor, and are loyal to him because he is the god-emperor. 

This stuff is not terribly abstract - that initiatory experience is EXPERIENCED not taught. My kinship ties are family, reinforced by ritual and events, and not some political party manifesto. 

Now ideology no doubt plays a role in Lhankor Mhy arguments and in internecine Malkioni disputes, although I suspect even there personal loyalties play a bigger role than people might think.

Most cattle raiding is done by young Orlanth Adventurous initiates during their ordeal period after initiation. They steal cattle - and try to avoid combat and starting feuds. You have these bands at the edge of clan or tribal lands. Think the Indo-European *kóryos.

The tribal militia assembles each Fire Season. This coincides with the tribal assembly. Militia members participate in athletic competitions and mock sparring contests to learn how to fight or to maintain their military training. In the past there might be semi-ritualistic battles with another tribe over control of a sacred place or whatever. Since 1622, the militia was more likely to engage in banditry and rebellion against the Lunar occupiers. Starting 1625, the militia is now expected to follow the Prince into war.

OK, a few points.
Orlanthi society has four basic social classes:

Noble. Standard of Living-wise this is just wealthy freeman, BUT all nobles have illustrious kin that give them a higher status. They are descended (or related) to tribal kings, heroes, Rune Masters, embodied spirits, etc. For the community to accept your claim of being noble, you need to be able to present yourself as noble, and that means a noble standard of living. As a practical matter, most chieftains come from kinship groups that are already noble or are closely tied to nobles. And almost all tribal kings fall into this category. The highest nobility in Sartar are members of the Sartar dynasty, who have the divine charisma that comes from that family connection.

Free. That's most people. You are not going to see the word "Carl" in any RQ books. Free people can be comparatively poor or rich, but as long as they can support themselves and their family without needing to become someone else's dependent, they have the status of "free".  They need to be able to support themselves, own their own weapons, etc. They are the default for how Orlanthi society imagines itself.

Semi-free. That's people who are dependent upon another family group for support. Tenant farmers are the most common - this is crop-sharing. You are not going to see the word "Cottar" in any RQ books. The "semi-free" are like discounted "free" people. They are theoretically the same, except the semi-free get less respect, are expected to loyally support their patrons in all community matters, etc.

Slaves. People who have no community rights or privileges, whether they are viewed as property or not. There aren't many slaves in most Orlanthi societies, and those few are mainly prisoners captured in war who have not been ransomed. You aren't going to see the word "thrall" in RQ books. 

7 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I do, and sometimes I think of it as the key to Godlearnerism. I sometimes like to think of the GLs as operationalists:

• [who] rejected the idea of nature as a thing-in-itself existing behind the appearances observed in experimentation.
  — Brittanica: Operationalism

“Screw the big metaphysical picture — experiments show it works.”

It sometimes seems to me — but I am funny that way — that when people speak up for the polytheist on the Genertelan omnibus, they fall into the trope (not necessarily the trap) of “of course, we are all Godlearners, now.” I am not saying that is wrong, but it always seems a bit hard on the Godlearners themselves: “we” all think like that, now, but they were the ones who deserved to be blown up for thinking that way. Everybody else’s Glorantha will certainly vary.

Again, if you read the Mythology book that is hardly the reason people hate/fear the God Learners. They are condemned for crimes far more serious than mutilating everyone's favorite stories to fit an understandable narrative structure. 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't expect Chaosium to substantially advance the timeline/metaplot (*).

We know the basic shape of things, if we want to lore-delve; but the *players* are supposed be making the future, their characters joining the Hero Wars.

The deeper into the future Chaosium publishes Greg's metaplot, the less and less there is scope for the PCs.

False on both accounts actually. And if you are familiar with Boy King/GPC you should probably be aware that neither Greg nor I view detailing the major events in a setting in time as well as space being something that restricts players from doing their thing. In the contrary, I tend to think it facilitates players being more dynamic in the setting rather than the reverse.

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

It has some useful information that deepens the Roleplaying experience, but is not essential when running a game of RQ.

Personally, I view it as the opposite. It is an essential book to understanding the setting. It is the decoder ring to get the interplay between mortals and gods in Glorantha (which to me is THE defining feature of the setting). But to each their own.

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

O.K., I can accept this, with some disappointment.

But, the distinct centerpiece of the cover art is Vinga, as noted, and praised, by @Wheel Shield and others.  It is strange to feature Her so prominently on the cover, and ignore Her within.

She's not ignored. She's one of the longer subcults in the series. She rated an additional Loic piece in the Lightbringers book. BUT Vinga is a martial AND female incarnation of Orlanth and that really covers it.  Take any Orlanth myth and it can have Vinga, as she is he.

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not much? At a cursory glance...

1. Throwing javelins and protecting Mahome and leaping on treetops and running on snow to defeat Valind?
2. Many other tales of her Defending Storm defending the Stead (often along with Elmal)?  Where she "inspires the seemingly defenseless to defend themselves."
3. Vestantes, “the Fightin’est Woman,” who defeated every male challenger in the land
4. How her hair turned red?
5. Throwing her javelin exactly one mile to help measure fields
6. Being "present at difficult childbirths" 
7. Wearing a knee-length skirt worn over men’s trousers.
8. "Every childless widow among the Kheldon Tribe dyed her hair red that winter"
9. How she joined the Storm Brothers (though I know Greg didn't like this tale)

There was a lot.  I agree that there was subcultitis.  I never actually played Hero Wars, but it seems a shame to totally drop so much good or interesting material as "non-canonical".  Especially as many of the important NPCs are prominent members of the Vinga cult.  In the standard Colymar campaign Leika is the Queen of the PCs.  Might be nice to have more information about her cult.

Well Greg and I decided to not use most of this stuff. So for us it wasn't there to use.

On 10/2/2023 at 10:10 AM, mfbrandi said:

Start here?

Then, if you are brave, here.

I think the idea is that the Gloranthan West has its share of Neoplatonic mystics — as did real-life Abrahamic religions, I believe. I doubt that — for normal gaming purposes — one needs to understand it deeply.

Oh I think the Gloranthan West has more than its share of Neoplatonic mystics (as well as more down to earth Platonists and Aristotleans).

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think it is a MGF change to allow more Praxian riding animals for Sartarite adventurers.  But, it is a change. 

For example, if you look through Smoking Ruins and Pegasus Plateau, there is no mention of riding bison, rhinos, or llamas, other than in the Pairing Stones scenario, which takes place in Prax.

And yet if you look at RQG (which I wrote first), you see that Vasana rides a bison and Harmast has zebras.

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In this post from 2020, you say there are only a few hundred Eiritha initiates in all of Sartar, a fraction of a percent.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/cult-membership-in-sartar/

 

Eiritha could be more common if many Earth Cultists are dual initiates, e.g. of Ernalda and Eiritha.  Is that the intent?

She's got about 1000 or more cultists in all of Sartar, but she's got plenty of shrines and minor temples. I think thanks to the strong ties to Prax, her rites and name is what is used in Sartar.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Real world bison are poor candidates for domestication.  So there is presumably some Eiritha magic going on there.  We always played Eiritha as extremely rare in Sartar, hence, few tame bison (none in fact).  YGMV.

Eiritha is really common in Sartar. She's got shrines in most Earth Temples and even a few minor temples.

Big picture. Sartar has long, deep ties with Prax. Most Praxian herd animals can be found throughout Dragon Pass (and in much of Peloria for that matter). The bison in particular is often used as a meat animal and as a riding animal by many Sartarites. Like in the RW, bison can breed with domestic cattle, and I suspect many (most?) cattle in Sartar are probably beefalo.

2 hours ago, Malin said:

Bison are also not that fast I suppose, but in plentiful supply since Argrath.

Interestingly, a bison can run faster than a horse and jump higher as well. I suspect horses are faster over long distances, but in the short run, a bison can run down a horse.

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

And it strikes me that a lot of these arguments are for Yudhishthira types worried about the fine points of dharma (can good dogs go to heaven) and not necessarily the Arjunas crowding the game table. So with Arkat, who was ultimately just an eccentrically trained horal and not designed to worry too much about sacrifice and prayer.

 

And this key. Arkat was a man of action - he's Kshatriya not Brahmin. He knows his duty and carries it out, regardless of how many dharmic eggs need to be broken.

On 9/21/2023 at 2:56 PM, mfbrandi said:

I suspect allowing Malkioni with rune magic is a munchkin thing: sorcery is too slow and boring — give me something that goes bang now!

Personally, I think it would be more fun if all the Malkioni said, “There is no god but God — and I am not even convinced that this ‘Malkion’ bloke is his prophet.” But we need a diversity of Gloranthas.

You'd be wrong.

The reason for allowing Malkioni to have Rune magic is in Glorantha the gods and spirits are a fact (we can come up with plenty of interpretations as to what they mean, but they ARE). The Malkioni are humanists and materialists, and blame the gods for the near-destruction of the cosmos. Still the gods can be useful, and in the most important Malkioni myths, men directly interacted with the gods.

The Malkioni philosophers believe that this world belongs to mortal humans, and thus subjugating oneself to a god is dangerous and foolish. The gods are trapped by the Compromise, forever repeating the events of the God-Time and their followers fall into that trap. At the same time, sorcery is a difficult intellectual and spiritual undertaking that requires specialisation and only a small fraction of the population is ever able to become competent with it. Not only that, but the Malkioni of the First and Second Ages conquered many non-Malkioni peoples, who continued to worship their gods and spirits.

On 9/19/2023 at 3:49 PM, scott-martin said:

Since you lay the pieces out so clearly here it gets me wondering whether he was hoping to shore up his IMG shaky claim to the forms and regalia of talar rightness with a healthy slice of Rex. In theory the systems of authority are compatible if someone puts them together in the right way . . . he couldn't pull it off but MGF suggests someone with more extensive local resources will try.

At the end of the day, Rikard tried to carve out a new principality in Heortland. Keep the Orlanthi happy with muscular justice and a willingness to take direct action. Keep the Esvularing happy by keeping them as scribes, administrators, etc. Try to keep everyone happy by staying aloof from sectarian matters. Attract Malkioni mercenaries by giving the principality a good name that rings a bell. And it is easy to maintain the forms - you've got the king and chiefs (talars), priests and wizards (zzaburi), warriors and thanes (horals), and farmers, herders, and crafters. 

Nochet does not need to import grain from outside of the Holy Country. Esrolia supplies more than enough grain for Nochet, Rhigos, and the City of Wonders (before it was destroyed).

Additionally, I doubt the sea-borne grain trade is all that important. Remember, humans only found a way to bypass the Closing in 1580 - only 45 years ago! If you are a sailor, there's a good chance your grandparents - maybe even your parents - remember when the seas were Opened. As I wrote last year on the RQ Facebook site: