Jeff

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

So her riding the Crimson Bat is an acceptable part of the Compromise thanks to the outcome of the conflict at Castle Blue?

She did it (emphasise the past tense) and that is part of the fabric of Glorantha. But the Bat is not the Red Goddess. The Crimson Bat is no more accepted as a deity than Thed, Vivamort, or Krarsht.

11 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Happy for Jeff to clarify, but I don't I don't see a lot of ambiguity in those quotes.  It's pretty clear to me that Sedenya is part of the compromise after Castle Blue.  I don't remember seeing anything saying the Hero Wars is about the cosmos rejecting Sedenya.  it's a large series of magical conflicts.  Yes, there might be those unhappy with the outcome of Castle Blue, but that's very different to the cosmos rejecting it.  I have difficulty in seeing how the cosmos would reject it. 

The Red Goddess is a part of the cosmos thanks to the Battle of Castle Blue, but her rise to the Middle Air as the Red Moon is not part of that. Her intrusion into Orlanth's domain was after Castle Blue, and was her last deed while she still had mortal free will.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So Orlanth is usually depicted as having four arms nowadays, yet there's no game mechanical means of replicating this. How would a devoted Orlanthi do this? Is it not something that there's a well defined means of achieving in Glorantha, only available to heroes who have found a way through questing?

Orlanth's breadth of power is beyond the scope of any mortal - that's why four or five arms are usually given to him. 

Let's make this simple and start here:

"Every Chaotic creature, every worshiper of Chaos, and every doer of Chaotic deeds (such as rape or cannibalism) is a parasitic wound in Glorantha. As long as the number of parasites is kept to a manageable level, Glorantha can bear Her wounds. The Sacred Time rituals and natural cycles of the cosmos renew Her. But when there is too much Chaos, as in the Great Darkness or the Gbaji Wars, then existence itself is in danger of ending.

Those who have wounded Glorantha are also wounded in turn. Their souls are tainted by Chaos, by that wound in existence, and their immortal existence forever in danger of annihilation. And yet, that taint warps reality, and can give power and vitality to the Chaotic.

This Chaos taint is not a tangible, physical thing. It is a spiritual blemish, known only to the individual and the gods. It cannot be sensed by normal mortals, except by the cultists of the Storm Bull, who can sense the presence of the taint."

Now like everything there are ways to hedge this. The Hungry Eaters perform cannibalism (normally a Chaotic act) within the confines of placating the demands of the Spirit World and so when they eat sentients in this manner it is not Chaotic. If a Hungry Eater decides to start hunting down eating people on the side to sate their own hunger, it likely is Chaotic. Interesting the patron god of the ogres does not care one way or another about cannibalism - Cacodemon is all about personal power at the expense of everyone else.

This is a real thing in the setting. Here's another snippet that might be useful:

"Glorantha is a fragile bubble of existence in an infinite abyss of Chaos. With Creation, order was imposed on formless Chaos. The Gods War weakened that order and admitted Chaos back into the world, where it still exists, but few Chaos gods strong enough to be worshiped as deities survived. The mortal races of Chaos are more now prevalent, hiding in the forgotten places of the world or consolidating in strongholds.

One of the clear distinctions made in the Cosmic Compromise is that Chaos is not of this world. The deities and powers of the world had touched it, and were still afraid of it, and their continued existence required that they remain apart from Chaos. Chaos became the one enemy that must be fought and suppressed by all. With one enemy recognized by everyone, the squabbling deities found a common source of unity.

Chaos always seeks to reestablish itself, which threatens the existence of Glorantha. Though Chaos is in itself formless, mutual corruption of Chaos and the cosmic order occurs at the weakened seams of the cosmos where Chaos leaks in. This corruption is personified and manifested by foul, cruel, and maleficent deities.

Chaos enters Glorantha in several ways. Spontaneous manifestations are rare but do happen—the world arose from Chaos, so Chaos may reassert itself. Once in the world, Chaos will spread. This process is present when a Chaos manifestation duplicates itself, whether by the replication process of the walktapus, the foul breeding of broos, or various Chaotic rituals.

Chaos can also enter the world through the actions of people. For example, in Orlanthi rituals, participants regularly summon and face their foes, overcoming them to recreate the world. If they fail in their trials, Chaos may enter the world. Chaos can also be deliberately summoned, as when the Unholy Trio brought Wakboth into the world. Chaos may enter through violation of divine laws, such as when Orlanthi commit kinslaughter or Dara Happans rebel against an emperor who has passed the Ten Tests. Tragically, even the best of people, desperate to save themselves and the things they love, can unwisely invite evil into the world.

The divine manifestations of Chaos usually parody the gods or forces of Glorantha as they represent corruptions or perversions of the same. Thus, Mallia is the Mother of Disease, yet once she had properties to aid life and growth. However, many Chaotic deities represent concepts incomprehensible to sane and normal Gloranthan life, since these entities originate in the Void, where nothing is sane or normal."

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Harrek took you with him when he plundered the City of Wonders, and you’re wondering why you’re personally devoted to him?

Mate, you’re a named supporting character who survived a Conan short story and even shared in the loot! Harrek almost certainly saved your life, knows your name, and helped you win more treasure than you’re ever going to see again!

(Yes, you squandered it: he has that effect on people. But for seasons before play you lived like a King, and you owe it all to Harrek the Berserk.)

Exactly!

6 hours ago, JRE said:

Gloranthan magic changes many earth situations. Even if it is not a spell, outlawry surely is a magical status and not only a legal one, and that is why it is recognized widely.

There is a spell called Ban. It can only be cast by Chief and High Priests of a cult. Not all outlawry results in the Ban spell, and no doubt it is carefully cast.

14 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Certainly true, though Esrolia is the sort of “chosen sixth” to represent the Holy Country of the core PC cultures, and I was really only thinking of the family histories in the core book.

I’d imagine the thing that typically creates trouble for the Esrolians isn’t as much Wolf Pirates launching probing raids like the Ditali and Solanthi, but the extortion and plundering of the innumerable trade ships heading between Nochet and much further afield.

Since over 60% of the human population of the Holy Country are Esrolian, I think that is a reasonable default. Especially since the next biggest group is basically identical to the Sartarites.

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

No, it means it’s irrelevant. Kallyr Starbrow’s alleged posthumous career is not what the OP was asking about. She dies in Fire season of 1626, killed by Lunar assassins at the Battle of Queens.

Correct. Pharandros hires some exotic assassins to take Kallyr out of play during the battle. His plan nearly succeeds - Kallyr dies, and the Sartarite army is leaderless. Then the Colymar drive hard into Pharandros' side and that inspires the other Sartarites. The Tarshite retreat becomes a rout and the army is pursued almost to Alda-Chur. Then the Sartarites disperse. Both sides to recover.

After that Pharandros needs to scurry back to Furthest to look after his own kingdom. Furthest doesn't have the resources to launch another campaign.

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

My point was rather that you don't pay wergild unless you have a good reason to. Avoiding excessive feuding, not pissing off the tribal king or the Lunars, and so on, can certainly be good reasons. But it's also credible that one clan can shrug off demands for wergild from another by just saying "you want revenge, come get it like men!" This becomes likelier yet when they don't have a joint superior, like a king (note how this lack additionally makes it trickier to resolve a feud, as seen in HQ Sartar books).

You pay wergild because the consequences are well-known if you do not - the aggrieved kin will attack your kin. Paying wergild protects the farmers, women, and others. It protects your livestock. Other clans and groups may decide you all are more trouble than you are worth. Your actions put your kin at risk, so pay the life price or accept the consequences.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As I perceive it this thread has accepted an unstated assumption that all clans will seek to deny wergild unless they are at a military disadvantage.  But I disagree with that assumption.  It seems more likely that most clans value good relations with most of their neighbors.  They intermarry with neighbors.   Fighting them will involve kinstrife.

And even a "war clan* won't last long if they are at feud with all their neighbors: Those neighbors are not stupid, and will combine against them.

In general, most clans within a given tribe are going to pay wergild unless they think the demands are unreasonable or the situation is unjust. Between tribes it can be more difficult, especially if the tribes have old rivalries or other conflicts. Here's where the Sartar Prince or the city rings become very handle - they provide a way forward from that.

Now during the two decades of the Lunar Occupation this system often broke down, and now we are trying to restart it. But the framework is there and everyone is familiar with it.

If a BG or Humakt cultist killed someone, compensation gets harder, and that is where the tribe, the city, or even the Prince needs to get involved. But BG has more hooks on her - if her local Earth Temple disagrees with her acts, she might find herself kicked out, exiled, etc.

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Resurrecting an old thread...

Is there a Official Protocol for paying weregild?

(or, did one of you ever make one up in one of their games?)

 

One of our Colymar PCs, Robbie Two-Braid, killed a Cinsina guard during A great cattle theft.  While Argrath has smoothed over things for the theft, Robbie needs to, and wants to, pay weregild for the death, and has collected the appropriate cash and cows.

1. Does Robbie go in person, or use a more neutral intermediary?
2. Is the weregild paid to
   1. the family (I think this is true historically on earth) or
   2. the clan / tribe?  (makes some sense on Glorantha, after all, it's inter-tribal strife we are really trying to avoid)
3. Is there a formal ritual, some Orlanthi "Bad Poetry"?etc...

Thanks.  Mainly looking for ideas for our next session.

1. Robbie can do this in person, if he is brave or sure enough. Or he can use intermediaries who might be able to more safely approach the aggrieved clan.

2. The weregild is paid to the other clan - usually to their chief, but sometimes directly to the immediate family leaders.

"Vampire Town" is how we express the rumour we all know is true - that there is a Vivamort cult in the service of the Red Emperor, the so-called Vampire Legion. Nobody knows how big it is - 40? 100? 500? 1000? Nobody knows where it is based, although many locations get thrown out - all in out of the way places that it is very hard to confirm.

Some speculate this is some Spolite legacy, others suggest it is some gift from Dorastor like the broo regiment. 

This thread has run its course, hitting a nadir of genocide and genocidal straw men. I'm locking it down. If people want to restart it, they can create a new thread.

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It is explicit, yet, it is not necessarily reliable.

What we know: Argrath went on the LBQ. What we know: Sheng Seleris returned from the Underworld. Proximity does not equal causality.

We also have the story that Jeff has shared on the first LBQ: A Story Every Orlanth Initiate Knows

As Jeff notes: "It is worth a careful read as there are some interesting details in this (and the story is more complete than in King of Sartar)." Orlanth goes to restore the Grand Order. There is no reason to think that Argrath does anything more than that when he sets out. (Doesn't rule out other motive, but doesn't imply it either.)

And then we have Harmast's LBQ: Harmast's Lightbringers Quest

Here the story goes: "And Harmast found the Mirror Fire, and returned with the Grand Order so that the Orlanthi could have a proper feast. And that was all correct. Arkat was there, and the feast was great.... What else could we ask for? The war of course would continue, but the Grand Order was back, at least for the moment."

And some further thoughts on the LBQ: Thoughts on the Lightbringers Quest

Specifically: "That’s the trick to understanding the Lightbringers Quest. It is not some paltry resurrection quest – although that is a part of it. The purpose of Harmast’s Lightbringers Quest was not to resurrect Arkat, but to make possible the defeat of Gbaji (an incarnation of the Devil)."

"In short, the Lightbringers Quest is not about resurrecting a person or god – it is about bringing life to a broken and dying cosmos."

And then the explicit point: "Why did he ask for Sheng Seleris? it is funny that people take that part of the Argrath Saga as a foundational truth, but ignore so much else in the Argrath Saga.

I think more disturbing to think is that Sheng Seleris is what the cosmos needed if Gbaji was to be defeated. How would we even know that Sheng was needed? Even assuming that Argrath’s Saga is an accurate recounting of events and not an Alexander Romance, even then, without Sheng Seleris could the White Moon have ever emerged from the Red?"

There's a lot in this, a lot more Truth than in most of this thread. And that last point should be really digested slowly because there is more than a little Truth there..

It is important to keep in mind that the Lunar Way made this possible, but did not condone this, prohibit it, or mandate it. It provides tools for spiritual liberation - but what people did with those tools and their liberation was their choice.

And it is possible that the Red Goddess was perfectly aware that mortals would collectively screw spiritual liberation up. That they would take the gifts and tools she gave them and use it for land acquisition, for grabbing trade monopolies, and for personal aggrandisement. That is pretty much inevitable with human beings, after all.

But perhaps the possibility of spiritual liberation is so important that it is worth a Hero Wars.

Just now, Jeff said:

I posted this on Facebook but it seems appropriate here as well:

Let's talk a little about the cosmic buildup to the Hero Wars.

It really all starts with the Seven Mothers, a desperate conspiracy that gathered to perform the most incredible ritual ever attempted by mortals. They searched the planes and worlds of the spirits to locate the shattered pieces of an obscure, long-broken goddess and inside the living wall of Time, they managed to reconstruct her into a living entity.

This was Chaotic by definition. Although the Seven Mothers are not Chaotic nor tainted by it, the product of the ritual, the Red Goddess, most certainly is. The rise of the Red Moon - the visible manifestation of her apotheosis - signaled to all that Glorantha had changed. She left behind her "son," a strange demigod that was given custody of her mundane affairs and became the Dara Happan emperor, her "daughter," another strange demigod who was there to advise her son, and her steed - the mighty Chaotic demon called the Crimson Bat. This was the birth of the Lunar Empire.

Despite much opposition, the Lunar Empire quickly conquered Peloria and survived its greatest challenge - the celestial demigod Sheng Seleris and his nomad hordes. Moonson died repeatedly, but he returned every time in a new incarnation. Tricks were performed, cosmic loopholes exploited, and Chaos repeatedly used as a catalyst to perform the impossible.This is stuff far beyond what the God Learners even dared to experiment with.

You want to use fire from the Moon to burn down a Great Aldryami Forest - use Chaos to make it possible. You want to destroy a far larger nomad army backed up by immortal magicians? Loose alien worlds upon them by summoning the powers of Chaos. You want to kill one of the Greater Gods of Glorantha? You are going to need Chaos to do that. And where there is Chaos, there is the potentiality of Wakboth and the Lords of Terror. The Lunar Way does not condone the moral evils of Wakboth (and indeed many Lunars fight heroically against it), but they accept its presence as part of the Lunar Way. And Nysalor - the Source of the Red Goddess' Illumination - is the Deceiver after all, the Seductive Chaos.

This set up a cosmic struggle with those gods that define themselves at least in part by their conflict with Chaos - the Storm Gods, the Darkness Gods, and to a lesser extent the Elder Races. In particular, the Red Goddess has created two very dangerous and determined enemies - Orlanth and Kyger Litor.

Orlanth is a turbulent and unpredictable deity, an untamed destroyer who is also the preserver of the cosmos. He is the patron of heroquesting and his cult considers it a religious virtue to find a way to work with Strange Gods and gain new powers through heroic questing. His cult is large and numerous - normally quite fractious and disorganized, The Red Goddess has given them something they can all agree upon and rally around - and something that brings in his family and companions.

Kyger Litor is a patient and cold goddess, who nurses ancient grievances against the very core of the Red Goddess' being. She would sacrifice all of her children and ally even with the Bright God to avenge that wrong - she just waits for her moment for the Darkness to engulf all and so that the Spider's Promise can be fulfilled.

And into this, Heroes have come or been made. Sir Ethilrist. Harrek the Berserk. Gunda the Guilty. Jar-eel. Jaldon Goldentooth. Jar-eel. Beatpot Aelwrin. Androgeus. And many others. And of course, Argrath. All have walked secret paths and undergone terrible ordeals to become what they are.

This is the context of the Hero Wars. For better or for worse, the Red Goddess and the Lunar Empire have brought the world to this point. This is why the Hero Wars are going to be so terrible and destructive, and will radically change Glorantha.

Castle Blue is at the center of all of this. There the Red Goddess and her followers fought a magical, physical, and spiritual battle against the "Old Gods" - which included Orlanth, Storm Bull, Argan Argar, Humakt, and many others - and their followers. In the end, the Red Goddess was victorious and the Old Gods were forced to accept her existence. Some swore allegiance as well, but many others did not. The Natural Order had been torn by the fighting at Castle Blue, and after peace came again the universe could be made whole once more by including the Red Goddess and her powers.

And maybe if it had ended here, peace would have remained. But it didn't. And although the gods might have been forced to accept the existence of the Red Goddess, their cults often did not. 

And of course there is the question of what role if any the mysterious inhabitants of the magical city of Castle Blue played in what developed. As we all know, they accepted a single migration of strangers to enter, and then shut their gates to all but the most determined of seekers. But within Castle Blue there are many of the immortals who survived the War of Castle Blue, and it is unknown whether they seek vengeance - or have already set it in motion.

I posted this on Facebook but it seems appropriate here as well:

Let's talk a little about the cosmic buildup to the Hero Wars.

It really all starts with the Seven Mothers, a desperate conspiracy that gathered to perform the most incredible ritual ever attempted by mortals. They searched the planes and worlds of the spirits to locate the shattered pieces of an obscure, long-broken goddess and inside the living wall of Time, they managed to reconstruct her into a living entity.

This was Chaotic by definition. Although the Seven Mothers are not Chaotic nor tainted by it, the product of the ritual, the Red Goddess, most certainly is. The rise of the Red Moon - the visible manifestation of her apotheosis - signaled to all that Glorantha had changed. She left behind her "son," a strange demigod that was given custody of her mundane affairs and became the Dara Happan emperor, her "daughter," another strange demigod who was there to advise her son, and her steed - the mighty Chaotic demon called the Crimson Bat. This was the birth of the Lunar Empire.

Despite much opposition, the Lunar Empire quickly conquered Peloria and survived its greatest challenge - the celestial demigod Sheng Seleris and his nomad hordes. Moonson died repeatedly, but he returned every time in a new incarnation. Tricks were performed, cosmic loopholes exploited, and Chaos repeatedly used as a catalyst to perform the impossible.This is stuff far beyond what the God Learners even dared to experiment with.

You want to use fire from the Moon to burn down a Great Aldryami Forest - use Chaos to make it possible. You want to destroy a far larger nomad army backed up by immortal magicians? Loose alien worlds upon them by summoning the powers of Chaos. You want to kill one of the Greater Gods of Glorantha? You are going to need Chaos to do that. And where there is Chaos, there is the potentiality of Wakboth and the Lords of Terror. The Lunar Way does not condone the moral evils of Wakboth (and indeed many Lunars fight heroically against it), but they accept its presence as part of the Lunar Way. And Nysalor - the Source of the Red Goddess' Illumination - is the Deceiver after all, the Seductive Chaos.

This set up a cosmic struggle with those gods that define themselves at least in part by their conflict with Chaos - the Storm Gods, the Darkness Gods, and to a lesser extent the Elder Races. In particular, the Red Goddess has created two very dangerous and determined enemies - Orlanth and Kyger Litor.

Orlanth is a turbulent and unpredictable deity, an untamed destroyer who is also the preserver of the cosmos. He is the patron of heroquesting and his cult considers it a religious virtue to find a way to work with Strange Gods and gain new powers through heroic questing. His cult is large and numerous - normally quite fractious and disorganized, The Red Goddess has given them something they can all agree upon and rally around - and something that brings in his family and companions.

Kyger Litor is a patient and cold goddess, who nurses ancient grievances against the very core of the Red Goddess' being. She would sacrifice all of her children and ally even with the Bright God to avenge that wrong - she just waits for her moment for the Darkness to engulf all and so that the Spider's Promise can be fulfilled.

And into this, Heroes have come or been made. Sir Ethilrist. Harrek the Berserk. Gunda the Guilty. Jar-eel. Jaldon Goldentooth. Jar-eel. Beatpot Aelwrin. Androgeus. And many others. And of course, Argrath. All have walked secret paths and undergone terrible ordeals to become what they are.

This is the context of the Hero Wars. For better or for worse, the Red Goddess and the Lunar Empire have brought the world to this point. This is why the Hero Wars are going to be so terrible and destructive, and will radically change Glorantha.

1 hour ago, Karlak One-eye said:

Hi folks - looking through the Prosaepedia I can see no sign of Ingnew. Is he no longer canonical or is there some other reason he is not mentioned? Asking because I have a Humakti character in our campaign, who is also the Temple smith.

Humakt does not have specialised smithing subcult, although dealing with iron is one of his secrets. 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't view it as a fundamental mistake, any more than our own Scientific Revolution was a fundamental mistake. But it made possible things and approaches that had been forbidden, and perhaps it was inevitable that such liberating things would be abused and twisted into cruel mockeries of their once bright promise. 

Remember, the Lunar Cycle includes both the Full Moon and the Black Moon. It includes heights of hope and marvel, but also the darkest pits of despair and depression. Yelm's bright light blinds many from seeing this truth, even many Illuminates. Similarly, Wakboth's malevolence blinds many from this as well, even many Illuminates. The Lunar Way can enable us weave from wax to wane and back again, without necessarily succumbing to either. But it is up to the individual Red Goddess initiate to walk that path on her own; only then can she be said to have walked in the path of the Red Goddess.

16 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Ahem. The Lunar Empire itself is canonically “probably one of the finest places to live” by the late Third Age. (Possibly not once it transforms into the Monster Empire, but that would depend on who you asked: Moonson Ralzakark thinks it’s dead good.)

As of 1625, the Lunar Heartlands are:

1. Unvisited by war for more than a century. Although there have been the occasional civil disturbances (peasant uprisings, slave revolts, etc.), the Heartlands have not experienced war until 1624. That's last year. Sartar in comparison has had constant war for the last twenty plus years, and before that had war and conflict since the 1550s (almost all of it Lunar exported). Definitely the Lunar Heartlands has had it better.

2. Relatively low-levels of civil disturbances. Competition between the noble houses and the powerful are largely contained through the Dart Wars. Peasants and urban townsfolk can continue their lives oblivious of such conflict. Meanwhile, clan and tribal conflict is common in Sartar, and Orlanthi kin-structure means that such conflicts are felt by all their members. Prior to 1602, the Prince was able to minimise such conflicts, but not for the last generation.

3. Prosperous. Harvests have been good, winters have been mild, and the Grain and River Goddesses provide much food. I doubt there has been a famine in the last two Wanes. Sartar on the other has had to feed a Lunar Occupation Army, had widespread famine in the Great Winter, and has had harvests disrupted by war.

4. Fixed and reliable legal system and administration. The Lunars maintain somewhere around a hundred thousands of scribes. The majority are Lunar scribes of the Irrippi Ontor cult, but a significant minority are old school busier (Lhankor Mhy initiates). There's a network of local courts, and different peoples, including Lunar courts (for Lunar initiates), Dara Happan courts (applying Yelmite law), non-Dara Happan courts (e.g., Carmanian, Provincial, etc.), and trade courts. The system is reasonable and fairly predictable. Under the Sartar Dynasty, Sartar also had a solid legal system, but without a Prince to mediate between the tribes and cities, it didn't work well.

Now 20 some years ago, I think the Holy Country might have rivalled or even exceeded the Lunar Empire for being one of the finest places to live. But it is now a shattered land, with war, conflict, famine, pirates, and Chaos. Of course, most of those plagues are directly or at least indirectly the result of the Lunar Empire.

In fact, one could make the argument that the Lunar Empire is probably one of the finest places to live by the late Third Age because the Lunar Empire is one of the few places the Lunar Empire is not actively working to make a worse place.

48 minutes ago, g33k said:

This, of course, is the crux of the "Problem with Chaos" that's inherent to Sedenya's Lunar Way.

The "all differences are illusory" POV, taken to its radical extreme, posits that the "difference" between life-as-we-know-it, -vs- the complete destruction of the world and the death of everyone and everything that anyone has ever loved  is also illusory... and not actually a difference at all.

Now, there may be a problem or two -- or thirty-seven -- with "life as we know it."  It's far from perfect!  First Council era... Empire of Light era... there's some times & places in the Gloranthan historical record that look objectively "better" & "closer to ideal" than 3rd Age leading up to the Hero Wars.

But Sedenya's form of "Illuminated Wisdom" is a fundamental mistake. 

I don't view it as a fundamental mistake, any more than our own Scientific Revolution was a fundamental mistake. But it made possible things and approaches that had been forbidden, and perhaps it was inevitable that such liberating things would be abused and twisted into cruel mockeries of their once bright promise. 

5 hours ago, JRE said:

My own theory is that Ralzakark has usurped both Solar and Lunar legitimacy, so he is functionally Moonson, with the support of what remains of Yelm's and the Red Moon's cult after Sheng.

I am sure Ralzakark claims to be the one that finished Sheng, rather than Argrath, and he may well be partially right, as Argrath commanding Yara Aranis still grates me. Argrath may have supported Ral's legitimacy as a way to get an ally against Sheng. Damned boys and their lack of foresight.

Many Lunar cultists ally with Argrath against Sheng Seleris and later against Ralzakark. That being said, Ralzakark is Illuminated, he is the Emperor and able to pass the Ten Tests, and we all know that unicorns are celestial beings. 

6 hours ago, EricW said:

So is your perspective that the Lunars actually support the monster empire, at least to an extent? I always thought of them as purely victims of a magical catastrophe they found themselves unable to escape?

Some Lunar illuminates do, some don't. There are certainly Lunar cultists who welcome this, especially within the Red Goddess cult. At the same time, there certainly are Lunar cultists who strongly oppose this.

Let me correct your statement - the Lunars are not "purely victims of a magical catastrophe" that is very much the logical result of the Lunar Way in practice. The Lunar Way does not condone the moral evils of Wakboth or the nihilism that follows Kajabor, but nor does it prohibit it. Accepting this is key to the Lunar Way. 

Now again, do most initiates of Lunar cults support go full-Wakboth? No, of course not. But the possibility was always there.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

I do think the Sartarites could distinguish trolls from chaos.  It's something the Malkioni would be more likely to do.

Or the Pelorians.

The Monster Empire gets its title because Peloria is ruled by a monster, backed up by broo and other horrors. Dragons, barbarians, and trolls pillage lands once peacefully ruled by bright lords and Lunar mystics. It is the time of the Empty Emperor, and even a monster is better than no emperor at all.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

Of course there are Lunars who are willingly turning to the Lords of Terror in their war with Sartar. Heck, there are Lunars who willingly supported the Lords of Terror before the Hero Wars broke out - Vivamort, Thed, Mallia, etc. This is not condoned by the state - and when it is turned against the Empire it was put down - but it was not forbidden either. This is part of the Lunar Way of course.

As the Hero Wars progress there are more who are willing to resort to this and Chaos is willingly and knowingly invited it. When the Red Emperor and Sheng Seleris are no more, the gates are opened, and Ralzakark is able to grab the center of the world. Once again, the Gods War let Chaos in. Some humans throw themselves behind Chaos, others fight against it. We are in the Greater Darkness again, and it is up to mortals to solve the problem created by the conflict between Old Gods and the New.