Jeff

Chariots of course are particularly useful in Glorantha because they can be used as mobile platforms for spell casting. One can cast active spells, augment with things like Meditate, and can use their melee or missile skills at full effect regardless of the charioteer's skill. This gives chariots a role they did not have in the real world - as mobile spell platforms for Rune levels. 

In fact chariots are so important to the Orlanthi in general that they have a charioteer cult! And not some toss-away subcult name, but one of the deities that have been a part of Glorantha since the 1970s.

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Given that it is the best source material we have on a lot of lore, I think we should stop treating the Stafford Library so flippantly.  It isn't as if Greg is around to do it better anymore, so we need to treat it as the obviously invaluable resource that these books so clearly are.  That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.

It is lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users.  I think that came out in a TORM article by Greg in the 1990s, or it was in one of the many Jonstown Compendium footnotes somewhere from back in the day.  The Volsaxi tribe are one of the last peoples in Genertela to use chariots.

I am treating those books flippantly because I was involved in creating them. I know what they are intended to be - notes, works in progress, etc. They are materials gathered together so we could have them handy as we worked on other materials. Heortling Mythology is not and was never intended to be canon. In fact, the process of putting together Heortling Mythology convinced Greg and I that a lot of the stuff written for Hero Wars was just plain wrong and needed to be discarded. What we put together in the Guide, RQG, and the Cults books are the product of over a decade of careful re-evaluation, deep dives, root revivals, and experiencing Glorantha anew. It is the basis of canon, not our research notes.

And no it is not lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users. And in fact, chariots are still used in Sartar to this day. It might be useful to read RQG and other actual published materials rather than just rely on half-remembered "lore".

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I wouldn't discount the military capacities of the bigger slaver states of Fonrit.

The Afadjanni have shown themselves capable of great military exertions.  They fought their own Hundred Years War in Umathela, the eight Season Wars, in which they were opposed by the Umathelan storm tribes and Aldryami.  The shape of this conflict seems to have been a string of early conquests followed by a long decline, with the Umathelans allies sending out armies each campaign season to seize back territory and disrupt the Fonritians' ability to supply themselves.  On the Afadjanni side, maintaining this conflict would've required garrisons, field armies, regular drafts of fresh reinforcements.  The mere fact that they could sustain the conflict so long speaks to the advanced logistical and bureaucratic abilities of the cities and realms that make up Afadjann.

In terms of what they can mobilize, the Guide says that each Fonritian city maintains its own core of professional soldiers, owned by their commander who is in turn owned by the ruler of the city.  These make up roughly 5% of the population across Fonrit, what the Guide describes as 'an entrenched warrior caste.'  Fonritian slavery-based society is also threatened internally by slave revolts, which occur whenever the magical obedience enforced by the cult of Darleester the Noose is disrupted.  The solution to this danger reached by real-world societies with more slaves than free people was a widespread militia system, through which local authorities could quickly call up free and semi-free manpower to crush revolts early, before they could spread.  I would not be surprised if there are structures in place to mobilize the petty landowners and semi-free citizens, under the leadership of the tiny body of free rulers, on an emergency basis for limited periods. 

Beyond numbers and degrees of professionalism, there is also the magic Fonritians can call on for battle and broader military concerns.  They can field both sorcerers and powerful priests as their lead magicians, and their slavery magic gives them ready access to bound spirits at volume as well as frightfully exact command of the forces of nature within their ownership.  To me, their most horrific magical resource is the application of Darleester's enslaving magic on battle captives; a Fonritian army can potentially replenish its losses in the field by enslaving captives and pressing them into magically compelled service.  The efficacy of this magic really can't be understated: it has proved powerful enough to enslave Vadeli prisoners after the defeat of the short-lived Vadeli Empire in northern Pamaltela.  Going deeper, modern Fonrit is steeped in the legacy of the God Learners and the Middle Sea Empire.  Golden Kareeshtu was founded by a revolt against the MSE led by its own imperial governor!  The enslaving magic also means that any God Learners who resisted the collapse of their regime in Fonrit and did not flee or die were likely made slaves of the new rulers of the Fonritian cities, and so whatever secrets they knew became the property of their new masters.  Their ability to conduct powerful, calculated heroquests to disrupt their enemies and empower themselves should never be underestimated.

I don't consider either Afadjann or Kareeshtu as having well-organised military. They are collections of rival city-states, currently held together by Darleester's Noose (in the case of Afadjann) or through the might, fear, and paranoia of the undying Archidomides (in the case of Kareeshtu). Their main enemies are their own people.

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I’d go with 1%, myself. It’s easier, it gives you more manageable numbers, and a Sword of Humakt expects to have 100 initiates in his company. Player character parties, of course, are Rune-level-heavy.

That's a little less than my usual rule of thumb. Most all adults are initiates, regardless of culture, and around 2% of initiates are Rune levels. So we've got about 1.2 million Lunar initiates (all cults) in the Heartlands, around 20-24,000 Rune levels, with around 10,000 Red Goddess initiates at max.

These are not hard numbers of course. Thanks to war, pressure, desperation, or whatever, with some cults the number might be over 2% and in others it might be closer to 1%.

So Sartar we have 34,000 initiates of Orlanth, but might have somewhere around a 1000 rune levels. 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be.  And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore.  I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system.  My thoughts on the matter are quite public.

The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. On retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

That has to be incorrect, as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people, while Finovan is a rider/raider god who rides a horse rather than driving a chariot as far as the literature tells us. 

Huh? Where the heck does this even come from? The Volsaxi have been well described in the Guide and other publications.

Look you are welcome to your own Glorantha. But as far as published Glorantha (which is now entirely with RuneQuest) goes, the Orlanth cult is divided into three major aspects:

Adventurous - that's the heroic aspect of Orlanth that runs around raiding, fighting, and having all sorts of adventures.

Thunderous -that's the elemental aspect of Orlanth that brings storms, wind, and fertilising rain.

Rex - that's the tribal aspect of Orlanth that rules the other gods.

There's also a Vinga overlap, and bunch of subcults like Four Magic Weapons, Sartar, Voriof, Thunderbird, and the Thunder Brothers. 

22 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I was just reading a book review and as a result wondered why Gloranthan religions seemed to be such that Gloranthans would:

• fret about life after death;
• take the lead from their gods about who to hit with a big stick and how generally to carry on;
• model themselves after their gods.

It seemed to me that these were not givens in IRL religion — though certainly common — so it seemed like a design decision. Possibly a good one, I don’t know, though I can see reasons why one wouldn’t want to do it (and possibly the force of Jeff’s answer is that it wasn’t done, anyway).

I was foolish enough to quote from an old source — because I had been looking at it and it was a particularly bold statement — but as of HQG (2015), the picture was much the same: Orlanth is still “the model for all men” (p. 154, emphasis mine). Never mind the “all” or the “men” or the content of what O is modelling, it was the idea of gods as models I was fretting over. Foolishly, as it may be.

You seem to be missing the obvious - in Glorantha, people really can wield part of the power of their god. To do that they need to have a tangible spiritual connection and follow the demands of their deity. But in return, they really can fly, hurl lightning, make the crops fruitful, turn into a wolf, whatever. When they do that, they ever so briefly manifest the god in the ordinary world. Really and objectively. And quite often.

10 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am in a game in which, for a little while, someone else played a Zorak Zoran cultist.  It was pretty clear that this was the character's response to past events, to prejudice and persecution.  Who will say that's not at least occasionally right and moral?  There are Real World situations in which the most appropriate response IS to go berserk.  We occasionally give Medals of Honor for that.  It's not all bad all the time.

What turns the ZZ into an a**hole is that he tries to apply that to all situations.

it was also pretty clear in the game that Zorak Zoran bloody-mindedness is not the answer to all problems.  As my own character, an Argan Argar initiate, said, "we can't kill our way out of this."  But then Argan Argar is the Darkness god who does talk and worry about Equal Exchange and give aid including to folks who are not Uz.

As another example of what i am trying to get at, your Chalana Arroy initiate is to be unfailingly pacifistic. ( Except to Chaos, and that's a big exception but the CA won't have the skills to physically fight Chaos either.)  Ordinarily the CA is a much more comfortable neighbor than the ZZ.  So what happens if the CA sees a small child about to be attacked by a large non-Chaotic predator?  I am not a pacifist, and would kill the wolf.  The CA would ideally keep hands off and concentrate on how moral it is to follow CA's example of non violence.  I think I would be following the more moral course.  By this example i am indicating that always being nice is not an infallible moral guide either.  There are times when it is just as objectionable as the ZZ's berserk rage.

As a wild take on ZZ, I had one player point out the Monarch from the Venture Brothers can certainly channel some of that hate.
 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

  Spun off from this in the Real-world Inspirations thread, as to take it further there would dilute that thread.

Sorry, it is my fault for being sarcastic. (What, again?) I meant: where did it all go wrong in the minds of the Earthly creators of Gloranthan religion?

We had before us an example of a culture whose religion was not dogmatic, not priest-ridden, not obsessed with the life to come, not in charge of morality, and didn’t see gods as figures to emulate (so we could have them behaving very badly indeed) — but did we make the PCs’ religion like that? Nosirree, Bob! We had a bunch of jihadis/crusaders who’d cheerfully murder their own family members if they were square pegs — “Sorry, buddy, wrong rune. Say goodnight.”

Still, that needn’t be fatal to MGF: no one plays a Zorak Zorani (or in that other game, a Cthulhu cultist) under the impression that their character or their character’s religion is pleasant, admirable, or sane. We all like a bit of satire of religion, and in Psycho, Norman Bates was clearly the best part.

But there seems to be a tension in the presentation of Glorantha:

• on the one hand, the Nysalorean illuminates are right: the warring sides in Glorantha don’t really have a casus belli — “These people and their gods are all crazy. Why can’t we all just get along? Stop choking me!” — still, it looks like fun, I’m gonna hit something;
• on the other hand, there is an intolerable hole-which-is-not-a-hole in the world — Earth or Glorantha? In this person’s mind, probably both — and we must fill it with blood; Orlanth is a stand-up chap, and anyone who doesn’t think so can duke it out with Robert Bly.

I get the feeling — maybe wrongly — that some people want Orlanthism/the Lightbringer religion to be acceptable as an IRL religion of the religion-must-tell-you-how-to-lead-your-life stripe. But some presentations of Orlanth make one think that one of these must be true:

1. it was written by a crazy person;
2. it is satire and we are supposed to be in on the joke;
3. it is a joke at our expense.

If you don’t believe me, take a peek at this — it must be stressed — no-longer-canon description of the big O:

  Hide contents

Orlanth is the vital motive force of the universe. He is active and works in complete harmony with his wife Ernalda, who is passive. All active people worship Orlanth. Like Orlanth, men are active. Thus, all Orlanth worshippers are men and all men worship Orlanth …  He is the source, protector, and maker of all that [the Heortlings] do. They follow his examples … and uphold his virtues … he is also the force of responsibility … people must take responsibility for their actions if the world is to be a good one … He made the laws that govern people, societies, and the cosmos so that everything would know its proper place. — Thunder Rebels, p. 209

Charity would lead us to go for option [2]: it is a joke, and we are in on it. But (a) there has been so much effort over the years to try to get us to play this kind of awful person (i.e. an Orlanthi) and — I think — (b) some effort lately to make PC religion more PC, and that throws us back to our dilemma, right? Are Orlanthi virtues and religion a put-on or wishful thinking?

But the Greeks offer us a way out: offer the right sacrifices, don’t knock the penises off the herms, but whatever you do, don’t imitate Zeus — he is a thoroughly bad lot. If the player characters’ religion doesn’t come with any morality, then it doesn’t have to come with a morality acceptable to moderns. The characters — and the players — can be moral (if that’s their bag) without having Orlanth tell them what that looks like or modelling it for them.

————————————————————————

PS: I don’t know whether anyone this side of the Atlantic read Edith Hamilton. I must confess, I had never heard of her, but if there is one thing that I know, it is that I know nothing.

I think you are taking a poetic panegyric praising a god (Greg wrote a lot of those back in the days - GRoY, Entekosiad, FS, and the unpublished Lunar materials were filled with them), and then running with it even further. As an aside, the Greeks routinely did the same thing - just check out Cleanthes' "Hymn to Zeus." To add to it, you took something that you even acknowledge as non-canon to make your point.

So let me make two responses:

1. The Gloranthan deities fulfill psychological or cosmic needs, if they are to be worshiped. Even Zorak Zoran and Storm Bull has their place in the cosmos and in the needs of their worshipers. They often do awful deeds (in the literal meaning of the word) that demonstrate their divine power. Because they are powerful, but not all-powerful or all-knowing, the question of theodicy that so often consumes moderns just doesn't show up. Ever seen a tornado close up? That's divine power. Is it good or is it evil? It simply IS - a part of the cosmos. In Glorantha I can wield some of that divine power by initiating to the cult of Orlanth.  

2. Orlanth is a destructive and violent god (tornadoes, hurricanes, thunder, lightning, etc.) who also is an upholder of cosmic order. He and the Sun had a rivalry, which he ended by unleashing Death (another divine manifestation). Because of this, we have Time, Day and Night, and the world we mortals recognise. As farmers we love him, for his storms bring the rain that fertilizes the earth and lets us grow crops. Is he a "good" god? The Orlanthi say yes - he lets them wield his power, his associates and friends and broad and useful, and his cult is the cornerstone for their social organisation. Non-Orlanthi tend to view devoting oneself to such a destructive force to be foolish at the very least. Who's to say who is right? All we can say is that the Orlanth cult has certainly proven itself to be useful and has spread itself far and wide.

Thunder Rebels really missed the point here - and Greg and I made the decision not to update it for HQ because we both agreed it really didn't describe the Orlanthi religion in Dragon Pass. If it describes anything, it is the henotheism of the Chariot of Lightning movement in Ralios, where Orlanth is worshiped as the supreme god (instead of just "king of the gods"). But that is a topic for another thread.

27 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Source: Hon-eel's Descendants, by Jeff Richard, on the Well of Daliath:

 

Probably the single most useful article for understand great house politics in the Lunar Empire.

52 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I think the “Hon-eel Rites” are a Red Fish: Greg used to think this was a Heron or Stork Goddess sacrifice, back when he obsessed about Heron and Stork Goddesses, so the Weedy marshes of Darjiin are perhaps more in-scope. (For some reason Dorkath is also ringing a bell. Go figure.)

But YGWV, and certainly I won’t be saying Moonson is safe as long as he stays away from Ptolemy’s Theatre on the Ides of March…

The obsession with Heron and Stork Goddesses is tied to Marija Gimbutas and her belief of a "gynocentric" neolithic culture which was ousted by the "patriarchal" Indo-European cultures with the onset of the Bronze Age. The Entekosiad, Brightface, and the Bird Woman stuff all ties into that. We get less of that among the Theyalans in part because they are post- the fall of Brightface.

But that's all ancient history. With the Third Age, we still have a few remaining Bird Woman fertility cults (SurEnslib and Biselenslib), primarily in Darjiin, Doblian, Kostaddi, and Sylila.  They are big cults, with somewhere around 150k initiates in total. These cults have links with the ancient past, and include shamanism, sex and death rites, and also birds. But they also don't play a big (or even a minor) role in the monomyth. Think of them as a really successful Horned Man cult, but with a Bird Woman as the great shaman figure.

19 hours ago, Manunancy said:

In my opinion horses are far more likely - bisons and sables are from prax - which has a very different climate and terrain - savana opposed to Startar's wooded hills.

 

Bison and Sable Antelope can live perfectly well in Dragon Pass. And in Peloria.

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately the cover clearly says:

and doesn't even mention ORC. It's just the latest edition of BRP to me.

Yep. It is the BRP Universal Game Engine. Says so right on the cover.

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

What about the cult of Finovan?  He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse.  As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention?   Rustling cattle is very hard on foot.  Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them.  If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

Are you absolutely determined to work all those old HW subcults into canonical Glorantha? Let me make it easy for you - the old HW books are not canon. In the Hero Wars period here's how they work:

Finovan was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Finovan Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. 

Destor was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Destor Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. 

In Sartar, these figures do not receive cult worship. Instead the focus is on Orlanth Adventurous. Orlanth Adventurous can fly, walk invisible in shadows, and surround himself with mists - that makes it easy for him to steal. And young Orlanth initiates learn this stuff during their Ordeal Years:

"New adults go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men. "

1 minute ago, DrGoth said:

In other words, don't take KoDP too literally. 

Remember, the KoDP computer by definition is most definitely not canon. Heck, it is anti-canon!

36 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess.  As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me.

How malleable is that?  Usually not very.  As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor.  One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it.  But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision.  

But i wrote "normally".  Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians.  You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess.  These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime.  A long campaign, not an adventure.  And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours. 

"Malleable" is probably the wrong word as it conjures up hints of Orwell. Understanding of myth for most cults is based on participation in that myth, and then seeing the meaning of that myth and then seeing beyond that to a new meaning. As Lhankor Mhy writes, "Mythology is the art of Meaning." But in the end, Gloranthans participate in these myths.

When we participate in a myth, we interact with the gods and might reveal secrets previously unrevealed that are clues to deeper meaning and understanding. For example, we can question then, confirm their identity through such techniques as the Three Questions Contest or other Challenges. Different mortals are going to have different experiences and meanings. Is that "malleability"? Or is that merely a reflection of mortal limitation in perceiving the fullness of the divine?

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Great, but as Jeff says, they were many Ages ago, sort of mythical ancestors of some of the Orlanthi people.

Not all Orlanthi are found in Heortland or Sartar, or even have ties to those areas. Sartar clans and tribes are only a few centuries old, at best, and broke ties with the older clans in the Holy Country and Tash. Even the clans and tribes in those areas probably don't claim that they were founded before the Dawn, or even in the First and Second Ages, although some might. 

Orlanthi in and around Kero Fin will gravitate to Kero Fin. Those around Tope of the World will gravitate to that huge sacred mountain. Lesser Sacred Mountains also attract local Orlanthi. I think that Jeff said that the Skanthi look towards Kero Fin, not Top of the World, but they are on the very edge of Kero Fin's influence.

Yeah, I suspect few "Heortling" (Sartarite and Heortlending) clans predate the Second Age. The old Hendrikar kinship group claim a thousand-year history before they were broken. Some Sartarite clans certainly claim ancient or mythological origins - although such claims should not be understand as historical links.

Prior to the Lunar Occupation, the Sartarites army was primarily foot militia led by mounted noblemen called thanes. The army was augmented by warrior societies, mercenaries, and various allied troops (such as Grazelanders, Pol-Joni, Praxians, and later Sun Dome Templars).

The horse is seen as a Solar animal, descended from Yelm. Hyalor Horsebreaker, another descendent of Yelm, is said to have tamed the horse to serve men. The Orlanthi adopted horse-riding in the First Age, but their small horses were often better used for pulling chariots or are ridden by full-time warriors and petty nobles. Other animals are often used as mounts, particularly bison and sable antelope (high llamas and impala are considered more difficult to learn to ride).

The best horsemanship in Sartar is associated with the Yelmalio cult, the Runegate clans, and the Pol-Joni. Of these group, the Pol-Joni are considered the best horsemen, and ride horses of Grazelander origin. The Yelmalio cult reveres horses.

The Orlanth cult is pragmatic towards horses, as it is with so many things. 

On 4/21/2023 at 1:19 PM, Darius West said:

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass.  They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin.

The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet.  That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere.

The point being that my position is backed by references.

There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur.  I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

Vingkotlings were around some 5000 years ago. Their civilization ended long before the Dawn. They are about as relevant to this discussion as Final Neolithic settlements are in order to understand the tensions in Philip's Thessaly.

And I will say it again, Harvar Ironfist did not seek to convert everyone to Yelmalio. He used that cult to establish his personal rule over the tribes around Alda-Chur, and ruled by force and without public legitimacy - hence his sobriquet. Here's his official summary:

Harvar Ironfist

This Light Son from the Vantaros tribe was the leading figure in the Far Point for the past generation. Born in 1580, he became Light Captain of Alda-Chur in 1610 and crushed the Righteous Wind Rebellion the following year. He proclaimed himself Prince of Alda-Chur and was appointed Duke of Far Point by the Lunar Provincial Government. He ruthlessly enforced his peace in the Far Point, aggressively protecting merchants and travelers. He was devoured during the Dragonrise, and his death has left a vacuum with the Far Point tribes.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I was actually pretty close to doing a post along the lines of "Well, if you haven't figured it out after all these years, perhaps it's time to pass the ball onto someone else who can...".

(then I read a post that said those rules might actually see the light of day... soonish.... as a playtest.....)

At this point, it is clear that this thread has long since run its course. If you want to create a new thread about what stuff you want us to write, go for it, but I am shutting this one down.

3 hours ago, Jason Farrell said:

The most recent RQ video posted on Chaosium.com says this: "In this Chaosium Interview, Jeff Richard talks about heroquesting, a core part of RuneQuest and the world of Glorantha."

Just saying.  Bolding mine. 

Yes it is. Since before even RuneQuest. And developing a good means to communicate how to create and run heroquests, as well as mechanically define their consequences has proven challenging. It is important that it be done right, that it be something that ties into Greg's views on mythology and his written stories - otherwise we shouldn't do it at all. Now I think we finally have a mechanical system and a narrative approach that works and it is going into final form. 

Jeff

There is no good source for what the Fourth Age of Glorantha is going to look like, and actually remarkably few data points. But to give you a few just to tease:

1. The Third Age is said to end in 1658 with the apotheosis of King Argrath. Others say that occurs 1733. 

2. Inkarne rules for a hundred years. This begins in either 1629 or 1643, depending on the source, and would mean she rules until 1729 or 1743.

3. The Illiteracy Era starts about a hundred years after the apotheosis of King Argrath. Some sources say around 1760 other sources put it around 1830. That's our Dark Ages.

4. The Illiteracy Era lasts a century or two. Argrath stories become a key part of early literature.

5. Argrath is widely renowned as THE great cultural hero but with many contradictory stories..

6. Roughly a 150 or so years after the Recovery era, our unnamed scholar tries to puzzle out the identity of Argrath.

Herd-Men are the reason many Praxians say the Morokanth must have cheated. They defeated men and turned them into herd animals. And their herd-men are beasts, not men. They treat them like other Praxians treat their herd beasts - because (and this is the really ignominious part) they are herd Beasts. They are children of Eiritha, just like bison, high llamas, impalas, and sable antelope.

So when we think about a "superhero"- we are dealing with an entity in the physical world who, together with their companions and followers, who are worth the equivalent of four or five experienced regiments. They may not be harmed except by the most disciplined and experienced regiments, each other, the lesser heroes, Dragons, or the incarnate of several cults. It is not often that a people’s consciousness can produce a vehicle for their needs, thus creating a personage with the massed power of thousands of unconscious minds.

To further cite Greg, "More important than any of this is the simple presence and Being of the Superheroes. This, their individual souls, is what makes them worth regiments."