metcalph

20 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I don't think it would have to be a cult....but some kind of thieving organistion  with specialist sorcery suited to what they do seems plausible.

To have specialist sorcery requires a full-time sorcerer and not some full-time thieves dabbling in sorcery.  I won't say it can't ever happen (the bizarre tale of the Russian Major-General shot down in combat over Ukraine springs to mind) but it does require a good story.

I don't think there would be any such thing as a sorcerous thief cult.  There might be thieves working for a sorcerer but even in Malkioni lands, thieves would worship a thief god (like Lanbril) or demon.  

5 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Ah, good stuff, do you have a source I can go off and read ?

 

References for the figures were given in the other thread.  

46 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Just ran a search on the search box but drew a blank, what criminal organisations exist in Nochet ?  I'm going to just start working through the results for Nochet, but thats a lot of results, so if some one knows of a thread or  article please point me in the right direction......

Lanbril (2000 people) split into several familes.

Krarsht.

Seseine (~500 at the most)

Vadeli (500)

Opium dealers from Teshnos and Kralorela.

Wolf Pirates.

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• Caladralanders 5k – main cult Veskarthan (Tendayvora)
• Westerners 2.5k – main cult Aeolian Temple, Rokar Temple (outside of wall)
• Trader Princes 1.5  – main cult Issaries (Deresagar)
• Lunars 1.5k – main cult Seven Mothers (Dearnor or Helamta)
• Handra .5 – main cult Issaries or Invisible God (Helamta)
• Ralios .5 – main cult Arkat (Deresagar)
• Teshnites 1.5 k – main cult Issaries and Calyz (Helamta)
• Kralorelans 1k – main cult Issaries, Rich Twins, Okeria and Serelaloon (Helamta)
• Trolls 3k – main cult Argan Argar (Dearno)
• Pamaltelans 1k – main cults Bendalazu and Seseine (Helamta)
• Vadeli .5k (Helamta)
• Other 1.5

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/to-sort-categorise/nochet-city-of-queens/

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• 15k Ernalda initiates
• 10k Orlanth initiates
• 5.5k Issaries initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 4.3k Chalana Arroy initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 4.3k Lhankor Mhy initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 3.8k Dormal initiates
• 3k Argan Argar initiates
• 2k initiates of Asrelia
• 2k initiates of Gusbran
• 2k initiates of Lanbril
• 2k initiates of Lodril
• 1.6k initiates of the Seven Mothers
• 1.5k initiates of Maran Gor
• 1.3k initiates of Esrola
• 1.3k initiates of Babeester Gor
• 1.3k initiates of Humakt
• And another 10-15k initiates of other cults.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/nochet-notes/

1 minute ago, Eff said:

I didn't say that things have changed for the worse, I said that it was quite a shift, and I don't have any idea what the point of finding chapter and verse on what probably will turn out to be a secondhand or indirect quotation would be. Can you enlighten me there? 

Well your gratituous insinuation that people were happy with slut-shaming gave a rather clear idea of your feelings on the matter.  And if your source was little more than something third hand, then perhaps avoid name-dropping Greg in future arguments, no? 

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

 

I am thinking of Greg Stafford's apparent expressed view that Ourania cultists were imagined socially as being similar to mid-level, somewhat starched bureaucrats, which would seem to be rather impossible if their existence is spent cloistered and they are divorced from social life. Setting aside the rather baffling swerve into slut-shaming that Ourania apparently alone of the gods of Glorantha engages in, as implied by "virginity or widowhood".

Well, to support your argument that things have changed for the worse, perhaps you could actually give a reference for Greg's words? 

8 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's a very striking change, huh.

Not really.  She was called the Virgin Mistress of Heaven in AH's Gods of Glorantha. 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) Is there a difference between a clan and a family in dara happan society ?

Commoners and barbarians have clans - Dara Happans have families.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean are people working for the noble family (merchant, tenant, ...) considered as part of the clan ? Or the relationship is different ?

They are part of the household, yes.  But they aren't related by blood.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I know we are in a very urbanized society but should nobles live in palace inside the city or do they live in some manor in rural area ?

Both in the city and out in the country.  Only poor people have single residences.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

4) Dady... the only question I have is his status in Yelm cult. Is he able to be sun lord ? He have done nothing very important for dara happa society. The more exceptional event is that he is the son of his fater. Could he even be a Yelm imperator ? only by birth ?

He is the High Priest for his family.  It matters not that he has done nothing important for Dara Happan society, what matters is that they are able to do important stuff for him.  If he leads a small family, then I doubt he would be an Imperator.  As for being the son of his father, that's not necessary.  Yelm requires direct descent within four generations.  

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

6) lost sun. As the oldest heir he was planned to become the next family leader. So initiate of  yelm, and initiate of a war/officer god. But  is the second god mandatory ? Or could you be a great officer "only" as a Yelm initiate (or rune level) ?I mean of course there are exception, but if dady planned his son success in the lunar army, should he hope a second initiation or not ? if yes Polaris ? Yanafal ?

Ran off to the join the army, did he?  How vulgar.   He can worship whatever strange gods he likes but don't expect further advancement in Yelm's graces. 

7 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Do we have any official information on the special magics allowed by the PHR? It seems interested but I don’t know where to look to understand what it actually allowed for.

Based on another system as well as the Battle of Night and Day - rune magic is more powerful.  But using it too much runs the risk of empowering your enemies as well or being sucked into the Gods World never to return.  So there will be a code (which "is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules") of how to behave without triggering these consequences.

The Mistress Race Trolls there are practically her incarnations and if you suggest there's any daylight between them and Kyger Litor then you get eaten. 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are certainly listed as 3 Spirit Deities in the Praxian traditions in Tales of the Reaching Moon 14 &15.  If we add the Twin Stars into the mix, the tradition begins to seem quite large.  

I think it's more like Spirit Cults - in one place you have a coven dedicated to the Morning Star and in another to the Evening Star.  They have common practices and magics but there is no Star Witch or coven thereof that worships all the magics of the Stars.

20 minutes ago, JRE said:

how they can bring down pieces of the moon (Crater Makers)

Meteor Swarm spell, Red Moon of Magic p117

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I was specifically thinking of the cult-unique ability to use pike and shield together. This doesn't seem like it would be just a question of mindset?

Not described as a cult secret in Cults of Prax and there are several non-Yelmalion regiments that use pike and shields.

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

As written, it's not a skill for PCs.  If you think that it should be, that's fine and future rules might even support you.  But as Cults of Prax memorably said "Humakt builds warriors – the Sun Dome trains soldiers" so I can see the point in its pointlessness.  

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes - basically, how is the pike use a cult secret? If it’s merely mundane training, it could (and should) be copied by others. And if it’s magical, just how does that work? Do you have the necessary magical experiences during initiation, ones that are necessary to be able to do it?

I suspect it's because when things go south, most gloranthans have a tradition of running away or (more rarely) charging like crazy.  On the other hand, Yelmalio teaches his followers to stand fast and accept their doom (ideally they should also be stoic, have a stiff upper lip etc but Yelmalio tolerates soiled garments).  As a result, his pikes hold formation better than other pike regiments and consequently win or survive more battles.

Yelmalio himself never fought in a phalanx formation and so he teaches no special magics for doing so.  But his spirit (represented by the passion: Devotion (Yelmalio) if you want to be game mechanical about it) is important in imbuing his regiments with the required mindset to give them that edge over over phalanxes.

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

This is where Greek myth in Glorantha fails a bit. It should be something like serpent rider.

Given that the Waters are kinda hostile to Waha & Co., I doubt they feel the need to downplay River Horse's equine appearance.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I just noticed this tradition, and while I can imagine a bit about what they are like, what is known about this shamanic tradition from actual written (dare I say "canon") sources ?

I imagine their favourite spirits are Pole Star, Morning Star and Evening Star.

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Where are you getting this from?

Etyries in Avalon Hill's Gods of Glorantha could trade Spirit Magic/.  

Other witches include the Sister WItch of the Fonritans, Ezdene of the Kingdom of War, a Spolite Witch ancestor to the Yanariao-Illart clan, a Cannibal Witch in Kothar and a Lanetara who figues in Argrath's childhood.

Obviously being a practiced user of spirit magic figures into the definition whether it be harmful or shady is largely a matter of taste.  

5 hours ago, icebrand said:

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

If you really can't grasp that Yelamlion's suckiness is intentional  then perhaps your time may be better spent elsewhere?

1 hour ago, Ian Thomson said:

Can someone please tell me, who is the Lunar General most likely to lead an army to try to retake Pavis just before the Dragonrise in Sartar?

Probably Sitzmag Redmoon as he was killed at Moonbroth afterwards (RQG p235)

He may not have been a General tho.  Halcyon var Enkorth is the type to play silly buggers with officer appointments.

8 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

We know teaming up to fight horse people can have political and ritual significance to Praxians, under the right circumstances. Maybe that's why they do it? (Also, has anyone got any theories about which Praxian Great Khan(s) in the run-up to First Moonbroth might have been in pole position to become Waha Returned, and what they did next?)

Looking next door, they just saw Sartar get done in by the Crimson Bat.  So they may have thought we're next and attempted a summoning of Waha to prepare for the likely return of Chaos (as opposed to the usual summoning of Jaldon Toothmaker).  So the Great Khans of the Bison and Impala were probably jockeying around to become Waha Returned.  Now that's Akasta Ironspear (bison) and Mokwaha (Impala).  Now here's the thing - Mokwaha was (temporarily) blinded by a Sartarite war party many years ago. So perhaps he was the one who led the attack on the Pol Joni and the Sartarite War Party perhaps had kin among the Pol Joni giving them good reason to blind him.  

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Have the Praxians massed to kill the Pol Joni? No.  They don't like their horses much, but they haven't made a point of forming an inter-tribal alliance to annihilate the Horse bastards. 

Not really.  There was a Shaman's Alliance that opposed the Pol Joni but Sartar made everything right.  This seems to have made the Pol Joni paying respects to the Paps at which point they cease to be Quivini and start to being Praxians.

Edit: It's occurred to me that taking place in 1489 would have made it almost 30 years after the fall of Sheng Seleris.  The Shaman Alliance were operating against a background of being bossed around by the Pentans not so long ago and may not have been quite so xenophobic.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The classic Borderlands set seems to have horses all over the River of Cradles, when was this "Solitude of Testing" and the lack of horses introduced as a thing? Or are the horses a Lunar innovation that came with Raus?

The Solitude of Testing is the period from 1200 (the fall of Pavis) to 1575 (the arrival of Dorasar) in such diverse sources such as Sun County, Pavis: Threshold to Danger etc.