M Helsdon

18 minutes ago, measuredrums said:

Looking through the 'Borderlands & Beyond' compilation and reading the Introduction to the 'Plunder' section, there is mention of and directions for generating random treasure based on Treasure Factors. That section mentions generating this treasure on Treasure Factor tables. Where are these tables? Sorry if this is a newb question, but I've scoured the book and can cannot find the tables. Thanks for any insight.

Chapter Nine of the RuneQuest 2 rules gives the mechanics for determining the Treasure Factor and the resulting Treasure.

Just now, Haimji said:

I m really not sure they fight riding. For me, its more mounted infantry.

Riding can cover using a mount as transport or for fighting. In some clans there are horsethanes, equivalent to weaponthanes, except they fight from horseback (or one of the Praxian riding animals). Weaponthanes also ride but fight on foot or mounted.

Several tribes (Kheldon, Colymar, Culbrea) sponsor regiments of heavy cavalry in the Sartar Free Army, armed with swords, javelins, and bearing shields and bronze armor. They aren't as good as Grazer cavalry or Lunar, but are still cavalry.

2 hours ago, DhBodhi said:

Does the clan ring or Orlanthi priest have a say in whether a divorce can go ahead? It seems that the clan is involved arranging marriages, and it is sanctified by Orlanthi, so I was wondering if they might be involved in any separation. I imagine that these could often be acrimonious, and usually one partner will want it more than the other.

i get the sense that although divorce might be common, it is not casual, and will involve property at least, but also possibly other issues such as status and sentiment.

Wife negotiations, blessings, and transferral of dowries are overseen by senior members of the clan. They are only involved in a divorce if there are serious problems which might otherwise be settled by combat: disputes about the return of dowries, bride price, or conflict over jointly owned property.

41 minutes ago, DhBodhi said:

So when women marry do they 'officially' join the new clan and leave their old one behind? Thereby coming  under the authority of their new clan hierarchy. I can imagine some being divided in terms of clan loyalty when there are inter clan disputes such as over land or raiding. Lots of interesting story possibilities here.

The wife generally joins the husband's clan for the duration of the marriage.

42 minutes ago, DhBodhi said:

The children born of the marriage are presumably of the husband's clan, at least in Sartar.

It depends upon the type of marriage. There are several different forms:

• Husband and Wife. Both have equal property, status, and responsibility. The woman moves to her husband’s house, and children belong to his clan.
• Husband and Underwife. The husband has more status and property. The woman moves to her husband’s house, and children belong to his clan.
• Wife and Underhusband. The wife has more status and property. The man moves to his wife’s house, but the children belong to his clan.
• Esrolian husband. The wife has more status and property than the husband. The man moves to his wife’s house, but the children belong to her clan.
• Year‑wife or Husband. A temporary marriage, renewable after a year.
• Bed‑wife or Husband. No property changes hands save for that publicly granted with witness. The children are raised by the individual who is not named in the title. A bed‑husband is not responsible for raising the children.
• Love‑wife. No property changes hands. A vow of monogamy for its own sake, or the sake of romantic love. Children go the father’s clan.

44 minutes ago, DhBodhi said:

If the wife decides to divorce is she free to return to her old clan and how easy is that to do?

Divorce is common and available to husband or wife with property being divided. The wife always returns home with her dowry, and the groom always recovers the bride price. 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd always picture the EWF Battle banner as a windsock style one like the small ones on the cover of Pavis GTA or a massive versions of the windsock dragon banners on the Bayeaux tapestry

I did too, but King of Sartar describes it thus: The Battle Banner of the EWF is widely known throughout Genertela. It is a standing dragon about to bite its own tail, which arches over its back. Its arms are so slender that most who saw it mistook it for the legless form of dragon called wyrm or orm.

After reading that, it became obvious that the cover illustration of the KoS 1992 edition shows the Battle Banner.

I'd like to think that other Sartar Free Army standards and banners are similar to Roman/Sarmatian draco standards but no text supports this.

A: Standard of the Lunar Emperor
B: Standard of Tarsh
C: Standard of the Silver Shields regiment
D: Standard of the Antelope Lancers regiment
E: Standard of a Yuthuppa regiment
F: Standard of an Alkoth regiment
G: Battle Banner of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends
H: Humakt’s Raven Banner

This concludes the banners I have canonical information for. A number of others are named but aren't described.

50 minutes ago, David Scott said:

What's the page reference for this please.

KoS says: Page 213 The clan is the “overfamily” of several bloodlines which trace their origins to a common founding event, spirit, or other occasion which forged the clan. The clan shares responsibility for a traditional geographic region. The clan is also responsible for overseeing marriages within its bloodlines, justice among them, and distributing the land commonly held by them all.

And: Page 216 Clans are exogamous, and the wives must come from someplace else. .... All clans have a list of prohibited clans, with whom marriage or sex is forbidden, in order to prevent unwitting incest. Most clans have a second list of prohibited marriages, due to ancient feuds and other historical events.

Exogamy is a social arrangement where marriage is allowed only outside a social group.

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Why would men join the unicorn tribe? Perhaps if already married to one of their members, but what other reasons?

Work among Praxians is gender-divided, and the Unicorn Tribe appeals to  women who won't follow their traditional gender roles. Just as some women won't adopt the roles set out for them in Praxian society, there will be some men who don't, so there's a reversal with men doing women's work and women doing men's.

Gender role reversal is found in several terrestrial societies, so I imagine that the Unicorn Tribe are a Gloranthan example.

3 hours ago, Baelor said:

I have made other changes that traditionalists would likely curse at. So this Witch is obviously not intended for completely canon campaigns.

YGMV: Your Glorantha May Vary.

Historical Dara Happan Standards

Ancient Standards:

A: Star Captain standard

B: Star Captain standard

C: Spearmen standard

D: Archers standard

Polaris Era:

E: Spearmen standard

F: Archers standard

G: Alkoth regimental standard

Jerarong Era:

H: Raibanth regimental standard

I: Early Tripolis standard

Khordavu Era:

J: Tripolis standard

K: Regimental standard

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Likely the witchcraft of Spol is a 'shamanic' variant.

Witch and warlock seem to be used for any magician who uses 'strange' and often 'dark' magic. Jakaleel the Witch, Cragspider the Firewitch, and Ezdene come to mind.

Witches and warlocks aren't unknown in Glorantha:

Jakaleel the Witch was once a shaman-priestess of dark powers and as one of the Seven Mothers her cult explores the diverse horrors and solaces contained in the secrets of Dark­ness in its many forms. The term 'witch' is applied to other deities as well, such as Earth Witch who prepares potions. This reflects the Gloranthan usage, which often applies to an elder female shaman. 

The magicians of the Sartar Magical Union are called warlocks and they wield great magical power through meditation and other strenuous disciplines. Argrath taught them to perceive a higher consciousness through their inner eye; these teachings are very similar to those Arkat taught his companions but include some element of draconic communication.

Their meditative disciplines include dance, chants, breathing techniques, postures, and other rites. Some rites include elements of Auld Wyrmish, both spoken and danced. The warlocks belong to other cults as well as that of the magical regiment; Lightbringer cults predominate; some are Malkioni, shamans, and even Lunar cultists.

Standard of the Red Emperor, Standard of Tarsh, standard of the Silver Shields, standard of the Antelope Lancers.

A few more to follow...

10 hours ago, davecake said:

Looking at the Dragon Pass counter list, the only good heavy cavalry in the Sartar Free Army there are probably Praxians - the Twin Spears and Bullocks we know are Praxian, the Sword Brothers I think are almost all Praxian. The Sartar City Militia cavalry units are OK, the equal of the Tarsh cavalry, but not as good as the Praxian or best Pelorian units. such as the Antelope Lancers and Char-Un or elite Imperial Bodyguard units. 

Some of the Magical Regiments are better than the Sartarite tribal Heavy Cavalry, and the Brotherhood of Death, the Sartarite Humakti are very good. The Western mercenaries of Mularik's Men are as well.

I've been unable to uncover any canonical descriptions of Sartarite standards...

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I love the standards art! 

A few more to come, later in the week.

I'm starting to run out of canonical descriptions.

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Unless they're within the joyous and warm light of the radiant Moon!  And remember this is the Extra Full Moon Year!!!  Which implies there are two full moons in a week in which to draw on Lunar magic.

Too bad on days when the Moon is at Half, Crescent, Dying, or Black...

4 hours ago, Patrick said:

I have sent a full regiment ahead to ensure safe passage. If they don't bring any news in 2 days, we will all leave the fort and head back home, but there will be no food left to plunder on the way...

Bad news: in cold weather, with ice on the ground, an organized military unit can't march many miles a day, even on a Royal Road. A regiment can march around 15 miles a day in reasonable weather - but the distance between Roman mansios and camps along their roads was 11 or 12 miles - and 15 miles a day is a high average for infantry carrying packs and their supplies. In this event, I suspect infantry might manage 7 or 8 miles a day, and cavalry 12 or 13 miles a day, but: at the end of each day there are going to be casualties. Horses and other riding animals are going to die without adequate food and shelter, and whilst the soldiers can eat them, the strength of the unit is going to diminish. Think of Napoleon's retreat from Moscow, but worse...

These distances suggest the foraging distances for Lunar Garrisons - a radius of no more than five miles, assuming they want to get back to base by nightfall. Because if things are bad during the day, at night they are going to be far far worse. There are going to be trolls, and worse things out there...

19 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Lunar foraging parties certainly raided to supplement what they had.

No doubt, but foraging and raiding can only gather what can be found, and this would be insufficient to maintain an entire static garrison for a year. When ancient armies are on the move they can, to an extent, sustain themselves by foraging and raiding because they are moving through 'fresh' territory. However, this reduces movement and makes the army dangerously reliant upon exploiting local resources. These can be withheld either by the expedience of hiding them, meaning it takes even more effort and time to find them, making the army increasingly exposed to enemy action, or by a policy of scorched earth. The Scythians enacted the latter very successfully against Darius the Great, meaning that many Persian troops died of starvation...

However, when an army is in winter camp, in an ordinary winter, it can't survive by foraging and raiding because only a distinct area around it is easily accessible: it takes increasing time and effort (which itself uses up supplies), and added risks of ambush and accident to widen the area exploited. Once the surrounding area has been exploited and exhausted, if the garrison has no winter stores of its own, and no resupply, it will perish.

This would be even more severe in the Great Winter: the Lunars could seize supplies from nearby settlements, but would have to rely upon their own stores and any supply caravans that managed to get to them. I suspect that the death rate of civilians in Sartarite cities was even higher than among the rural population, because the garrison would take complete control of the city stores.

Not entirely relevant to this thread...

Standards of different grades of Lunar General; Carmanian Shah; Dara Happan Emperor.

The standards of the Granite, Beryl, Marble and Jasper Stone Wall phalanxes.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

By Roman tactics, I assume you are referring to the way the Romans defeated the phalanxes at Cynoscephalae ?  By using pilae with their flexible soft iron upper shafts to pierce the shields and render them unbalanced, followed by pelting with the heavy fighting spears, while the vanguard slipped under the sarissas with gladii?

The difference in weaponry: throwing spear and shortsword. The only regiment which uses that mix of weaponry is the Carmanian Steel Sword Legion. Whether they use a maniple formation - I suspect not.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I am interested to hear what you consider Argarath/Kallyr's innovations to have been?  Obviously the Sartarite Magical Unions, which no doubt incorporated different cults and styles of magic into advantageous "buffing" positions.  From memory the Sartarite cavalry is quite good.  This has always seemed odd to me, given that there is no specific Rider god of particular note in the Orlanth pantheon.  I thought that perhaps this was achieved by combining Praxian tactics with those of the Western knights of the Heortlands?

Primarily creating their own versions of Magical Regiments.

The Sartarite Free Army includes Heavy Cavalry (mostly Praxian, either Animal Nomads or the Praxian Humakti, plus the Pavis Royal Guard, plus units from the Kheldon, Colymar, Culbrea and Malani tribes) and Light Cavalry from the Bush Range (though this might all change when the 1627 sourcebook becomes available). For a Rider God, the Sartarites have Elmal, though the cult is reduced because of the schism, and a long tradition of Orlanthi weaponthanes and other thanes having riding mounts.

I suspect that a great deal of Sartarite arms and armor are Lunar in origin, taken from the garrisons in the liberated cities, with the Lunar emblems hacked off.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

The concept of frontage is all-important to making a phalanx work.  Depending on the length of the pikes/sarissas/spears, a single infantryman facing a file of phalangites might face as many as 5 spears attacking him.  In RQ terms this is not fun, and even Rune Lords have a hard time dealing with that much punishment. 

In historical phalanx battles it wasn't unusual for one phalanx to rout before contact. The reputation of the Spartans was such that their mere appearance could cause the opposition to falter and run away. The casualty levels were usually around 5% for the victors and 40+% for the losers.

Over time there was an arms race between the Successor States, resulting in longer pikes and heavier armor, and on the open battlefield the phalanxes became increasingly unwieldy and affected by unsuitable terrain. Even so, when the Romans attempted to break Macedonian phalanxes initially, in fairly static conditions, they failed, unable to get close enough to use their swords, but where terrain and mobility were a factor, the Roman formations defeated them. The later phalanxes weren't of the same quality as those Alexander led into Persia: they had heavier weapons and armor, and their training doesn't seem to have been as good. Alexander's phalanxes could ford a river in good order, the later ones lacked that sort of ability, perhaps because the soldiers were overburdened.

In Glorantha, no group employs the Roman tactics (except perhaps the Steel Sword Legion), there's been no significant phalanx arms race (perhaps because all militaries are fairly conservative because to retain their power they must match traditional rituals and the regimental patron spirit in the standard and the regimental god) so phalanxes and shield-walls, and their variations, are the peak of heavy infantry formations.

The Lunar innovations consist of mounted infantry and unified magical regiments.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is great stuff.  I could also see a lot of merit in an Earth Rune formation that protected archers within, and a Sea Rune formation that increases frontage by forming a zig-zag.  The main weakness of a phalanx being its flanks, a square formation somewhat solves the problem.

Hollow square phalanxes are historical. For water the historical peplegmene or 'saw tooth' formation might fit (it doesn't increase the width). Whilst formations and commands existed to increase width to outflank the enemy, those pose the risk of reducing depth. In any push of spears or pike, a significantly reduced depth could prove disastrous.

However, I suspect that whilst Dara Happan Stone Wall regiments might perform both of these, they might not equate them with the Runes.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

According to GROY, there is also the SunStand formation - form a circle, plus a group in the middle, forming a fire rune shape. Not a formation that useful to fight other phalanxes or similar heavy infantry, but useful to fight very mobile enemies, including some flying enemies, or that can be used to defend a group of magicians in the centre. 

I know, but I decided not to include it in the limited set of commands.

In my Warfare in Glorantha, I've included it:

Schiltron
A variant on the rectangular phalanx formation is a schiltron, with spearmen drawn up in an extremely close formation, intended to present a cavalry charge with a perimeter horses and most other mounts will refuse to breach.
This is a purely defensive formation, with spear points bristling out in all directions. This allows for a reasonably effective defense even if parts of an army have been divided in battle but requires a high level discipline. Such a formation is capable of holding off cataphract heavy cavalry, but is defenseless against a stand-off attack by archers. The array of spears provides limited protection, but when the formation is adopted to defend against horse archers, its lack of mobility can prove disastrous.
In Dara Happa a circular schiltron is known as a Sunstand.

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There's also another formation of Gloranthan interest, though the name is that given for the real world formation:

Half-Moon
The Half-Moon or Crescent is a phalanx formation taken in the face of an approaching attack by an infantry or cavalry wedge or rhombus.
The wings are extended forward and the center hollowed. This permits the phalanx to surround the attackers, meaning that combat is not restricted to the point of contact between its line and the wedge. If the enemy succeed in breaking through the center, the wings can converge on their flanks, trapping them.