Bohemond

Thank you. I've been running The Eleven Lights and one of the PCs is a Helerite, so I've been thinking about doing the Marriage Contest as annual tribal event (a la the Garhound Contest), but I before I could even think about building a scenario around it, I needed to figure out the myth first. Once I plot out a scenario around it, I might need to revise the myth, especially the Elmal half, since it feels a bit short in terms of stations.

And here's the Elmal side of the myth The Contest between Heler and Elmal (Elmali Version) Once, Elmal looked out from his watch post and saw the loveliest of all goddesses, Esrola, walking the land. She was stunning to him, with her golden hair in the Maiden Braids, with a jeweled comb to hold it in place, and wearing her dress of Life. He desired to court her, but he knew that it is better to offer a woman a gift of service than a simple compliment. He saw that Heler was trying to court Esrola, but was doing so poorly. The dreary rain god was flooding the land with rain, drowning all of Esrola’s children and making her shiver with cold. Esrola asked Heler to stop, but he ignored her. The bright sky god went to Heler and told him that he should be more gentle and give her rain only when she wanted it. But Heler scorned him derisively, saying that he had once been a woman and thus knew everything about what women want. But Elmal had watched men and women courting from his vantage point and knew there was more to it than that. He sought Esrola out and found her sitting forlorn in the rain, drenched to the skin. “Fair maiden,” he said, “can I be of service to you in any way?” She turned him and said, “Your warmth is welcome, for this rain is chilling me and all my children. But if you would aid me, send Heler away, for my children need the sunlight and the heat to prosper and grow.” “If it can be done, I will do it for you,” said the steadfast sun-thane. Elmal went forth and blazed brightly, and dried away the rain, forcing Heler to retreat. Esrola smiled at Elmal and all her children rejoiced. But the dreary rain god was not happy at what Elmal had done. He gathered his warband from their cloudy bed and returned. He brought with him a torrential downpour greater than before, and a mist so heavy that no one could see Elmal, and so much thunder than Elmal’s thanes could not hear him when he called to them. And so the problem was made much worse, and many of Esrola’s children were swept away and drowned, and the radiant goddess was made miserable. But the brilliant sun god was undaunted. He swore that he would solve the problem for Esrola, and so he went to Gustbran and asked his fiery kinsman to make a shield that everyone could see. So Gustbran heated up his forge and took bronze and hammered it into the brightest shield that was ever made, Reflart the Shining Blinder. On that shield he shaped the image of whole world, with all its mountains and valleys and lakes and oceans, each in their proper place, and Elmal riding his horse high across the Sky for all to see. Once Elmal had received Shining Blinder, he knew that he had to find a war horn with which to summon his loyal thanes. And so he went in search of Croch Crogach, the Bull of Black Slaughter. Croch Crogach had hooves of flint that crushed everything they trampled into dust and a hide so thick no weapon could pierce it. Everyone was in fear of him, and so he went where he pleased and did what he wanted. But Elmal found him and confronted him. Croch Crogach charged him but Shining Blinder kept Elmal from being wounded. And so the fiery god struggled with the Slaughter-Bull for three long days. Their fight was so fierce that they ground a mountain down into a valley, because neither could defeat the other. Finally, on the third day, Croch Crogach charged him once more and this time Elmal leapt upon his back. He grasped the Slaughter-Bull’s horns and twisted its head beneath it as it ran, so that its hooves trampled its own head and ground its skull to dust, all save one horn that Elmal held on to. And from that horn he fashioned a warhorn, Waking Blast, whose sound can be heard throughout the world and which no man can sleep through. Thus armed, Elmal went to confront the damp rain god. Although all was rain and mist and thunder, Elmal strode forth. He displayed Shining Blinder and its light blazed so fiercely that all of Heler’s mist was dispersed utterly. Then he blew on Waking Blast, which cut through all of Heler’s thunder and summoned the sun god's loyal war-thanes to fight beside him. Then he mounted his faithful stallion and led his thanes to do battle with Heler’s war band. And Heler’s forces could not stand against him but were scattered and the blue god was sent away reeling with defeat. As the rainy warbard dispersed, Elmal’s warm and gentle heat dried up the ground and warmed the radiant Life-goddess. She was overjoyed to see her children thrive and grow and prosper. She called him her Year-Husband and took him to her bed and gave him a son, Minlister, who brings joy to man wherever he visits. Her children flourished and grew, rejoicing in Elmal’s shining warmth.

Here's the Heler side of the story The Contest between Heler and Elmal (Helerite Version) Once when Heler was out roaming, he looked down and saw the loveliest of all goddesses, Esrola, walking the land. The radiant goddess was stunning to him, with her golden hair in the Maiden Braids, with a jeweled comb to hold it in place, and wearing her dress of Life. He desired to court her, but her beauty daunted her, and he feared to approach her. But he saw that she was suffering from Elmal’s oppressive heat. She was fanning herself and lamenting for all her children around her who were withering from Elmal’s relentless glare. So the rain god sought to cool her, in hopes that she would appreciate it and thank him. So he gathered his flock of clouds around him and led them toward her, to shield her from Elmal’s heat and provide her with a refreshing rain. But when Elmal saw Heler and his flock rolling in, he was angry, for he was seeking to impress the lovely goddess with the blaze of his heat. So Elmal called his thanes and with his fiery warband, he came roaring at Heler and his flock, striking the flock so hard that it scattered in all directions and sending Heler retreating from that place. When Heler collected himself, he realized that his flock had been scattered, and there was no way he could comfort Esrola without first gathering his flock. And so he went searching for them. But he was unsure where to look for them. So he sought out his highest children, the Cloudhawks, because they are known for their keen eyesight, watching the world from the top of the Middle Air. Most of them were too flighty to have paid attention, and they could not say where his flock had gone. But one of them, Tolartora the High-Sighted, had watched Elmal’s attack and saw where the sheep had scattered to. He promised to help his father search them out. First Tolartora took him to find Fog Lamb, the youngest of his flock, who is as quiet as the mist at sunrise. She had been captured by one of Elmal’s thanes, Roaring Fire, who intended to roast her and consume her utterly. Roaring Fire was so powerful that Heler could not possibly get close enough him to do battle. But when Roaring Fire opened his maw to swallow Fog Lamb, Heler threw his spear into Roaring Fire’s mouth, so that he could no longer roar at all. Roaring Maw fled, and Heler was able to rescue Fog Lamb. Then Heler wanted to find Soggy Fleece, the wettest of his flock, who is as gentle as the summer showers. Tolartora showed the rain god that Soggy Fleece had fled into the midst of the Tanglewood Thicket and had gotten caught there. When Heler entered Tanglewood, the Queen of Tanglewood was angry with him, because she felt that everyone was her enemy and that no one should enter her lands. She demanded that the rain god leave, saying that everything that came there belonged to her. But Heler showed the Queen that he was no enemy but rather promised to always be a friend to her and her people if she would allow him to reclaim Soggy Fleece. The Queen of Tanglewood agreed and allowed him to rescue Soggy Fleece, and since then Heler has always been welcomed among her people. Finally, Tolartora led the rain god to Thunder Hooves, the most warlike of his flock, who is as loud as the booming lightning of Orlanth’s storm. Thunder Hooves was being stalked by one of the Hell Hounds, Bargrau, who had three tails and six ears and teeth like spears. Bargrau was too strong for Thunder Hooves, who fled him but was unable to escape him. Tolartora swooped in to help rescue the thunder ram, but Bargrau caught the swift cloudhawk’s wing in his teeth and broke it and threw her down. When the fierce rain-bringer saw this, he struck Bargrau a blow so hard that it broke most of his teeth, sheared off four of his ears, and sent him fleeing with all of his tails between his legs. Having gathered his flock to him, the staunch Heler returned to offer comfort to Esrola. First Fog Ewe crept in, and made it impossible for Elmal to see anything about him. Then Thunder Hooves raced after, making so much noise that Elmal’s thanes could not hear him when he called for them. Then Soggy Fleece came in, bringing with him a gentle rain that cooled Elmal’s oppressive heat and revived Esrola’s withered children. Confounded, Elmal retired in defeat. Esrola rejoiced at this gift that Heler had given to her, and she allowed him to court her, which he gladly did. The Life-goddess called him her Year-Husband and took him to bed and her children flourished and grew well, thanks to his cooling rains.

For a while, I've been wanting a version of the Marriage Contest between Heler and Elmal. It's an important myth, especially if you're playing with the Red Cows, since they and the Dolutha are naturally reproducing that conflict. But I want a version that is quest able from all three sides of the story, both because I think we need more quests for goddesses and because I don't like the 'passive earth goddess' thing that can creep into Storm Tribe myths. So I've written three versions of the myth, one from each of the three sides. I'm looking for feedback, especially ways to give them a bit more of the strange myth-logic a good Gloranthan myth needs. The Esrola version owes a debt to Edan Woods, who offered a version of it on the Google+ group a while ago. I've revised it but a good chunk of his structure and wording remains. Thanks, Edan! So here's the Esrola version. This side of the myth focuses on Esrola's journey to learn what she needs to know to solve her problem. Esrola’s Search (with thanks to Edan Jones) Long ago, in the Time before Time, in the time before Death, in the time before Orlanth had come, even before the time when the Bright Emperor ruled everything, there was the Earth, and it was great and fertile. Esrola the Bounteous covered the ground with Life, providing for all so that no one was ever hungry and nothing was ever wanting. But one day, things changed. Esrola’s fields were turning empty and Lifeless. Life became hard for everyone, and there was too much wanting and not enough of anything good. The radiant goddess did not understand, for she was young and beautiful and had never seen such a thing happen. So she set out for her mother’s hall, Great Ezel, because her mother Asrelia knew many things that she did not. There she asked her mother what she might do to fix this problem. The wisdom-goddess gazed deeply at her daughter, and wept. Her daughter was Life itself, and so could not see the dark things that were coming. Asrelia knew that Esrola could not solve this problem until she could see it clearly. "Life is all important, but it is not enough," she instructed, and told Esrola that she would need to learn to see what threatened the land. The Life-bringing goddess must learn for herself what the problem was, because until she knew the problem, she could not knew the solution. Esrola listened to her mother’s wisdom, and so she walked down into the earth, seeking to understand what could possibly threaten Life. She found the Labyrinth of Caves, where dark and terrible things lurked. She saw the Gnawer of Roots, which seeks to destroy from underneath. It sought to undermine her, but she showed it that her roots ran far deeper than it could ever understand. She saw the Pestilent Cold, which wraps itself around its foe like a blanket and drains it of warmth. It tried to smother her, but it could not chill her and fled from her instead. She saw the Withering Rot, which dries out that which lives and scorches it. It attempted to burn her vitality away, but her Life was inexhaustible and it could not overcome her. But then she saw the thing that was beyond her, the thing that had been placed deep underneath to keep it away from the living, the thing that was what Life was not and could not be. And at last she understood. She saw clearly and learned how to see the things that could threaten her. And from that, she understood that she needed someone to combat these things for her. Having walked the deep places of the earth, she returned to the world above and prepared herself. She put her golden hair into the Maiden Braids, with a jeweled comb to hold it in place, and put on her dress of Life. She put the Necklace of Desire about her throat and walked the land. When she did so, the entire world stopped to watch. A thousand gods offered themselves to the radiant goddess as her husband and protector, but only two of them were worthy to help her in this matter, the clouds who had turned to follow in the goddess' path, and the sun who had descended to offer his warmth to her. Both gods were worthy, but they were too opposed to each other. The sun sought to dry up the clouds, and the clouds sought to cover up the sun. Esrola thought that she would need to choose one of them to protect her, and so it was necessary to test them. The Life-goddess led Heler and Elmal to her fields, and showed them how they had lain fallow. She asked each god to provide and protect, to show her who was most worthy. Heler went to the fields and offered himself to them. He rained down on the withered crops, nourishing them and covering the field with his wool. He gifted Esrola with a mighty herd of sheep, and his son Voriof to herd them. Elmal went to the fields, and offered himself to them. He shone down upon the frozen crops, warming them and ripening them with his light. He gifted Esrola with many hives of bees, and his son Minlister to protect them. The Life-goddess was happy that each had given provision and protection, but each was as worthy and as loyal as the other, and she was unsure which she should choose. Plagued by her problem, she sought out her mother once again. The crone of secrets laughed at her daughter's complaint. "It is no problem at all to have many worthy protectors. Although the men will insist you must choose one of them, in truth there is always another way. You do not need to pick between them. Instead, each one may serve you in turn, as the sun follows the rain, as your needs declare." Esrola thanked the wisdom-goddess for her insight. She returned to her suitors, and told them of her decision. At first they were angry, and jealous; but the radiant goddess simply smiled, and showed them to her fields, letting them understand that she was the source of Life, and they were merely her protectors. Convinced by this, each god settled down, and loved Esrola in turn, glad for the opportunity to serve and love Life.

I try to embrace the idea that failure should be as narratively interesting as success. So I try not to make any serious challenges where failure is either totally catastrophic or boring. I came up in the old 80s-style "roll dice for every little thing" approach, so I find HQ's approach liberating.

I'd pictured it like Martin says--reddish pumice that glows faintly. Lighter than it should be for its size, with a tendency to float slightly

I was wondering about that. Thanks! I decided to take the plunge and get the new edition.

Thanks!

I've been thinking about running MoN recently. I have the single-volume paperback edition issued in the 90s. I'm just wondering if, with the various re-released, there are any significant changes that would necessitate me getting a new edition. Basically, has it changed in any important way?

I don't think that hoarding HPs is a bad thing. The game actually encourages it a little with its principle that failure should be as interesting narratively as success. The purpose of HPs is to give players a choice about where they want to fight the dice rolls and where they want to just go with the dice.

I've run into an odd problem. I'm running the Red Cow campaign (that's irrelevant though) and I have players who take very different strategies in playing. One player, an Urox, is a bit of a min-maxer. He realized early on that since Hero Points both improve your rolls and act as XP, if you spent all your HP to succeed at things, you're robbing yourself of XP. So he mostly lets the dice fall as they may (unless it REALLY matters) and saves the majority of HP for advancing his character. He also focused entirely on 2 runes (Air and Eternal Battle, obs), and has never point a point into his third one. As a result, after about 24 sessions, his best stats are just about to crest the W2 level. One of the other players, a Helerite, He put points into all three of his runes (Water, Mobility, and Illusion--he also worships Donandar). He likes to succeed at rolls, and his stats are lower, so he tends to burn through his HP, leaving himself with few XPs. The result is that his best stats are in 7-8W range. I've got another player who is roughly the same boat with a Vingan. The base difficulty is now in at 20. That means that if a test has a Moderate difficulty, the Uroxi will ace it (because he will have something like an 17 or 18 target number, and a Mastery to boost him from Success to Critical. The Helerite will have a reasonable but not great chance, because he'll have a 7 or 8 target number but a Failure will get bumped to a Success thanks to the Mastery. If the test has a Hard difficulty, the Uroxi will still probably ace it (Masteries cancel out and he's left with a 17 or 18 against a 6 Resistance). But the Helerite will be struggling a bit (a 7 or 8 against a 6 Resistance, Masteries cancelling out) and may well have to spend an HP. If the test has a Very Hard difficulty, the Uroxi will still have a decent shot (17 or 18 against a 20 resistance, Masteries cancelling out) while the Helerite will be lucky to win (a 7 or an 8 against a 20 Resistance, Masteries cancelling out) and will almost certainly have to spend a HP. If the test is Nearly Impossible, the Uroxi still has a chance if he spends an HP, whereas the Helerite will be hopelessly outclassed. In a session or two, when the Uroxi breaks the W2 level, crafting a test that will challenge the Uroxi and not blow the Helerite out of the water (or the water out of the Helerite, I suppose) will be almost impossible. So I'm facing a situation where a difference in play styles has resulted in a profound structural imbalance in the campaign. The Uroxi realizes this and has started spending his XP on stuff he doesn't really need just so he won't hopelessly outclass the Helerite. The Helerite is starting to feel left behind. I advised him to not worry as much about succeeding at rolls (I try to make failure an interesting option narratively), but if he does that, the Uroxi just outclasses him anyway. I could start giving the Helerite extra HPs, but that feels really obvious and calls attention to the problem in a way that I think will embarrass him. (I also award occasional Humor Points for saying or doing something that gets the whole table really laughing.) The only other option I can think of is to offer asymmetrical challenges (Moderate for the Helerite, Very Hard for the Uroxi), but that just feels like handicapping the Uroxi. Any thoughts on how to address this?

In Dara Happa it would make sense that Orlanth as Niskis would be a problem. In Dara Happan culture, he would be seen as a shameless seducer and adulterer who tries to corrupt women and humiliate their fathers or husbands. He might serve as a model for trouble-making young men to express their frustration against the rigid patriarchal structure of society. (In many urban areas of late medieval Europe, young men used seduction of women as a weapon against rival families and older men they disliked, a la Romeo and Juliet, so there's a good RW parallel for that.)

Right. What I meant is that the details about his cult in Dara Happan society are no longer canonical.

As others have said, the only sourcebook that mentions his cult is no longer canonical. If you're looking to flesh out his cult for campaign purposes, my guess is that he might have Darkness and either Disorder or Illusion as his runes (he's an underworld god and Darkness gods make logical sense for a god of the Dara Happan criminal underworld; Illusion is just a guess based on his 'Faceless Man' identity, but Disorder also makes sense. I would see him as a god of con-men, burglars, fences, and the like, rather than a god of bandits or violent criminals. But that's mostly just me guessing.

Dara Happan thieves worship Veskerele the Faceless Man.

On p. 133, Jogar Sog is described this way: "His mother was Vorena the Rattle, the daughter of KostajorWolf-Champion. Her siblings are the Helkos Brothers. As such,Black-Paws is his uncle and Kostajor his great-uncle." That means that Kostajor is his grandfather, not his grand-uncle.

That middle one looks like a very cheery butt plug.

Interesting observations, and they make sense. But notice that all of these are basically the same thing--"Greetings" followed by a conversation starter. So they're not exactly different greetings, just different ways to get past the 'howdy' phase of the interaction. I'm trying to zero in on the actual greetings and what, if any, gestures go along with it.

How do Sartarites greet each other in casual circumstances? Obviously for formal moments (like when a stranger shows up at your door), there’s the Greeting Ritual. But what do you do when your run into a close friend at the market? Do they shake hands? Clasp forearms? Fist bump? And what do they say? Obviously it could something mundane like “good to see you” but are there more evocative greetings, like “Good winds, brother” or “strong breath”? Do women use different greetings than men, and if so, what?

I've always preferred the idea that Barntar is Earth tribe rather than Storm tribe, sort of the opposite number to Vinga--a way that men worship Ernalda. But that's an issue for a different topic, I suppose.

We know that when someone skins a dragonewt corpse, the reincarnated dragonewt will pursue them because the re-use of their skin binds them to the physical world in a way that screws up their spiritual progress. So an interesting twist on this might be that the dragonewt either A) reincarnates and stalks them, but without part of their soul/magic (which is bound in the head) or B ) turns into a sort of headless zombie that homes in on them and attacks them. I love the macabre image of the PCs fighting a Thanatari villain and then a dragonewt corpse bursts into the fight and helps them out.

The Coming Storm, p. 48, can't seem to decide who Sureela worships. She is described twice as a priestess of She Who Waits and once as a Sevened initiate of Yanafal Tarnils, but she has what might be a garbled version of Queen Deezola's runes (Full Half Moon, Earth, and Harmony). Given that she's a spy, neither Deezola or YT seems like an clear fit for her. Obviously there's a bit of a proof-reading fail here. So what is she supposed to be?

I have trouble seeing Vinga as having Death. The Heortling gods with Death are pretty grim (Humakt and Babeester Gor) and entirely severed from normal human relationships. Vinga doesn't seem like that to me--she's surrounded by kin--father, mother, and (Thunder) brothers. She's not grim, at least not any more so than Orlanth is. And a woman changing Life for Death would look much more like Babeester Gor than Vinga--Earth and Death being Bab's runes (albeit the dark side of Earth). Since Vinga is the way that women worship Orlanth, it makes sense to me to temporarily swap Earth for Air.

Perhaps this should be in the Heroquest section, since it's partly a question about HQ mechanics. But here goes. One element of the cult of Vinga that used to be emphasized what that some women joined the cult temporarily to avenge violence (such as the killing of their husband), and that dying the hair red was part of the process. What is the current thinking on how that works? Does the ritual hair dying allow a women to replace her Earth rune (her soul) with an Air rune? Does she keep her other runes, or can those be swapped for Orlanth/Vinga runes too? It seems to me that this would produce some odd dynamics, such as a women with Air, Harmony, and Life.

So the Illuminated Argrath has an easy solution to the Bat problem. Just get the Hydra into position to kill the Bat...