jeffjerwin

Well there is the Solar Storm revelation, the god with the blinded third eye from Chen Durel. He becomes enlightened and calms down, of course. I wonder if Sheng's Pain Star in the sky was meant to become a 'fixed sun', an anti-Sun or reborn Yelm, with Yelm himself trapped in Hell forever? Or does Sheng's star move? I suspect Sheng descends into Hell every Sacred Time.

scott-martin, I'd like your post but I've used up all my likes too. It's clear to me that Sheng Seleris' 'standing on the Moon' is 'riding on the Moon' - he is a Pentan, after all. The Moon would become his mare, his consort, by castrating/maiming the Red Emperor, her lover and son. The female horse is of course a vehicle of sovereignty. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha) As pointed out by many others, the dead mare of the horse sacrifice is in fact the sexual partner (ritual or symbolic) of the king, as she remains in the Irish kingship ritual. Thus the Shadow Moon empire. The Moon is still there, but she is suffering, a prisoner. She is not Empress but slave. I think the 'crippled man' who helps Sheng Seleris to escape in that puzzling image in the Fortunate Succession must be connected to the maimed father, the beggar. He may be the Red Gardener in Kralorela. In fact, the Red Emperor would have sacrificed his fertility to father Yara Aranis. This may be the missing 'part' of the Emperor that rendered him unfit to rule Kostaddi, the land of the goat. Compare Osiris, also a man who came back from the land of the dead, missing his genitalia. The Emperor gets sick, is imprisoned in Pentan Hell, and perversely, becomes the lover of Gorgorma. Why does the 'cripple' help Sheng? Is the Pentan Hell connected to the Zolath 'oven' - the 'tapas', internal fire, (to use the Sanskrit) of Sheng's Un-Order? To use the internal fire model, perhaps the body is the Hell that traps the Sun (the burning heart and mind)... In the Karvanyar story there's hostility between the blind father and his perfect son, who becomes emperor even after he restores his father's missing eyes and heart. We know nothing of Sheng's father, but his treatment of the mystics in Kralorela shows contempt. Pentan patriarchy is no doubt an endless cycle of violence and hatred.... more visceral than the Dara Happans, who sublimate their unrest into 'duty' and perfectionism: self-hatred. Instead, Sheng hates the world itself. He is, in fact, very similar to Ragnaglar, but instead of ripping the universe apart, he tries to kill everything 'above' him. His end would have been becoming Kargzant, consuming the Sun. He would be the Evil Emperor. In this aim, he is no innovator: his ends are a matter of scale. Every Pentan man wants to be a khan, or is supposed to want that. His Zolathi slaves are his sons, but sons as automatons and extensions of his will, not sons that are meant to eclipse him. When the future Emperor chooses the Widow's Son path - and by widow there is a neglect or erasure of the fallen, wounded father - he identifies Sheng with the Sun Dragon - which works, I suppose because of the parallels of mysticism, draconic insight, and tyranny - he is probably reviving the Red King rite, the hidden Darsenite, Darjiin path of parricide, husband-killing, that the Moon remembers.

Well, every father has to die. The trouble with immortal ones is they don't, so there is no inheritance. Patriarchs tend to hoard power, wives, daughters. The children have to challenge him to find their place. When Orlanth was among the strange gods, he met the Moon, the rebel daughter of the Sun, driven out of her father's home; a part of her, or a child of her's, Mahaquata, the death-bat, helped Orlanth to kill the Sun... You know who those two old friends of Orlanth are?

Yes, I think Karvanyar's quest's outcome, 'Every Man a Sun' is probably somehow related to the emergence of Tharkantus, and Monrogh's 'Many Suns'. Though not long after Karvanyar, the Yelm priests 'proved' that Yelm was 'not a/every Man' that innovation took hold amongst the proto-Yelmalions. Even Baboons can be the Little Sun.

True. Though I mistrust what the Yelmic orthodox say about such things; this may well be a part of folk history, not 'official histories'. "The Poor Widow's Son" is probably a thing, it's just hidden. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the secret was discovered by Karvanyar from the myths of the Little Sun or Lightfore. After all, Karvanyar is the son of a blinded and maimed father who should be the Emperor. He doesn't know his heritage, but finds it out. He triumphs over an usurper (in Karvanyar's case, the Sun Dragon) using 'Every Man a Sun' (which is similar to Elmal's discovery 'I am the Sun'). His act at the marriage negotiations with the Dragon's Daughter is to get his father's eyes and heart as a price for the match, then rejecting the marriage. This is what the Fortunate Succession says about Desdarius: "Desderius 111,260? During this time period this relative of Yelmgatha attempted to perform a variant of the "Poor Wife's Son" ritual, replacing the dragon with the Red Emperor. He was caught, and not found guilty of treason. But for Conspiracy, he had other parts taken by the Hungry Goddess besides his heart and eyes." "Poor Wife's Son' ritual" can hardly be anything but a hero quest, so either it's from the Godtime or it's a Mythic Part of Time - like the Red Moon's Ascension or the Night of Horrors.

I only got to know Greg this year and he was a lovely person. Of course, his worlds had brightened my own for decades before that. Arkat has gone to his star.

"Deneskerva the Great Sister is the demi-god daughter of the Red Goddess. Some say She was born when the island of Mernita rose during the Great Flood. Others say She was born when She emerged from the Cavern of Flowers in Darsen in the Zero Wane and was at the Goddess’ side during the battle of Castle of Blue. Great Sister was there when her twin Takenegi the Red Emperor was first revealed by the Goddess. Like Takenegi, she is thought to have worn several Masks, although she discards them less readily than her twin. The current Mask is thought to be 125 years old." (...) "Before, when she was called Verithurusa, Lesilla had founded the land of Mernita, and thousands of her descendants lived in it. Mother Lesilla sat overhead, worshipped by her descendants add simultaneously appearing among them as Queen Cerullia. When the Great Flood destroyed the world, Lesilla drew her land upward, higher than the rushing waters. Deneskerva was a daughter of Lesilla, who was loved by Lesilla above all others. Lesilla showed Deneskerva the invisible light of Sedenya the Turner that permeates the material world. When Deneskerva’s own twin brother demanded that the people of Mernita reject Sedenya, Deneskerva was given her mother’s mirror and taken to the God Caves in the care of Natha. Because of this, Deneskerva did not die but remained hidden until Our Goddess revealed her again." (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/deneskerva-the-great-sister/) The Cavern of Flowers is the Miringite Cave, which is clearly related not only to Natha's Cave in Hell but also to the Cave where Zaytenera/Verithurusa lost her innocence and became a mother: Lesilla, the Blue Moon. That Cave may well be the same as the Cave of the Strange Gods. Her associations are clearly with the Blue Moon over the Red Moon, though she is obviously also a child of Sedenya by the Third Age. Since the Blue Moon is the Moon of Motherhood, in a sense both of her children are born of the 'Blue Moon'. However, by saying 'bastard daughter of the Blue Moon' the author can sidestep the question of whether she's a rightful Empress.

I don't disagree. However, the methods Illaro used - conquest and amassing sovereignty magic - backfired, or had inconvenient consequences, over the next 150 years. The Sartar dynasty, despite the Lunar period, established a state model that depended more on justice and peacemaking (or the reputation thereof) - a novel and I think successful way to get around the whole problem of entanglement in the designs and troubles of one's clan and tribe - the pitfall of almost every Orlanthi state, including Tarsh. Illaro did have a notable failure: he failed to conquer the Quivini or convince them to submit. The Hendarli/Illaro dynasty suffered from a never-solved problem with alternate sources of legitimacy. There was no rival to Sartar's family anywhere near as trusted by the tribes. In certain ways Sartar more closely resembles Belintar than a traditional Heortling king.

The Hendarli are probably identical to the Hendart, so they have a fair bit more written about them (if you include the Unspoken Word stuff, a lot more) than we ever hear of Ernalsar or the Orshanti. Illaro was their king, not a random adventurer. Hon-eel is well documented of course. Anyway, Sartar is very much like a player character who comes from a nondescript background and 'wins' a RQ campaign. Every basis of his subsequent power is based not on descent but his own deeds, and his lack of pedigree serves him well because he doesn't have a conflict of interest - he can solve feuds more easily than the Colymar, who were the most powerful tribe in 1470s Sartar but had a distinct problem with peacemaking. Edit: anyway, Illaro is an Earth-goddess champion, so he fits with the 'Earth Rising' motif. While Sartar seems out of place, his parent's name hints otherwise. His action as a champion of Harmony as a path to kingdom making is Ernalda's 'There is Always Another Way' in practice. He seems to be a pacifist in fact! Though his bodyguard were Humakti... or Telmori.

Well, Illaro was her consort, so she's actually manifest in c.1455.

Arim was a Stravuli with an apparently known descent from him, so not - despite being a 'Pauper' a nobody or 'adopted clansman'. Illaro was a tribal king (Hendarli), so his ancestry is simply not detailed as yet. Sartar, however, was the founder of the dominant dynasty in the center of the most detailed part of Glorantha. Generally, you'd expect a list of ancestors, but all we know is a parent and a clan (Orshanti). Both are obscure. He is in fact mainly known as 'Sartar' or 'Sartar of Bullhill'. Bullhill suggests an area under Styrman influence, which could also mean unknown patrilineal descent, given their attitude towards sex. All this is pretty hypothetical. However, I believe the main point was the ascendency of the Earth rune, and though Sartar is unusual - being a man - in the list, his ancestry hints at some connection to Earth as well (Ernal-).

Yeah, see my edited suggestion of a Vingan mother. *Ernalsar[a]. The Ernaldori name derives directly from Ernalda: 'Because the goddess's temple was on their tula, the clan took the name Ernaldori.' (see Jeff Richards at http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/heroquest-rpg/2005.09/28609.html) Thus the -ori suffix is 'of or appertaining to'... Given that -or- is here referring to a very female figure, it doesn't really indicate gender. I'm aware of Hercules/Herakles, but I'd hold out for a specifically Theyalan example to be convinced. There are lots of men with suffixes like 'Elmal-' but I can't find any women with that suffix, for the converse.

Actually, Hara means 'devoted/beloved'. 'Sar' is obviously the first element in Sartar's own name. We know that female names can end in -r - well, see Kallyr (and -rid, as in Insterid) - both of these being vingans. -a is usually female. However Ernal- only appears in female names or obvious references to Ernalda, such as the Ernaldori. Compare Ernalsulva, Hofstaring's daughter. Given that we are never given Sartar's pedigree, unlike, say, Harmast, Hendrik, or Heort. I propose he may be the son of an Ernalda priestess (or a vingan to explain the absence of the -a?) born from a sacred rite (or a casual encounter for the vingan), without a named father.

Sartar Ernalsarsson. Everyone assumes Ernalsar was a man. Regardless, the root-word in his parent's name is Ernal[da].

Well, Hon-Eel was born in 1445. If anyone is an Earth avatar it's her. The 'Earth Strikes Back!' in other words. This does seem to correspond to the period in the Darkness when the Earth birthed a large number of 'avenger/protectress' gods. Here, of course, the threat is the Burning/Black Sun... Note that Sheng's Zolathi are 'turned into stone' at Kitor. Demi-birth refers to the birth of demi-gods, does it not?

Also, isn't Godunya in Dragon Pass at the time? (Edit: No he wasn't) There's an interesting correlation between the domination of the Earth Rune post 1460, the defeat of Sheng, the appearance of the Feathered Horse Queen (1455) and the crowning of Queen Bruvala in Nochet, too.

Where do you derive the notion that Intagarn attacked Bagnot on behalf of a Zolathi? It's plausible, but there are plenty of other quarrels that could have drawn him there... like the feud between the Tarsh king and the Grazers. Or the feud between Tarsh and Sylila. I notice Jaldon Toothtaker was active till c.1420. Perhaps he was awakened by the Celestial Empire, and used as their figurehead in the Wastes.

OK, what about Prax? The c.1450 map in the Guide shows Prax under the dominion of the Celestial Empire, but I can find little to nothing about how that functioned. Does this mean a Pentan tribe is occupying the Zola Fel valley (perhaps with the aid of the Sun Dome people) or does it mean they paid tribute to Pent at an encampment along the Snow Line? Or something else?

They belong to different pantheons. Yelmalio is a southern Pelorian cult, and Gorgorma is a Naverian-Dara Happan-Pentan cult, worshipped by women who have been assaulted by someone in their patriarchal society. The Earth cult around Mo Baustra is Ernaldan - Theyalan (and southern Pelorian) where the closest equivalent is Babeester Gor, but she's a lot more easy going. Babeester Gor is the 'avenger of the Earth': women, children, and the defender of sacred temples. She likes beer and distrusts men. Gorgorma is faced with an far more patriarchal and hierarchical situation than among Heortlings (even Pelorianized ones like the Mo Baustra - there's a Light Son who's a woman, after all!), and also protects peasants against an uncaring elite. The two goddesses are obviously related but Babeester Gor is more axe-murderess/biker and Gorgorma is more sinister crone.

Different regions have different levels of initiation. Many lay members, however, of a cult, are actually initiates of a different one. Everyone participating in the harvest festival, for instance, in Sartar, is a lay member of Barntar/Ernalda, except for the Barntar and Ernalda initiates proper and higher, adding up to 99% of the village (that one Humakti is probably sitting it out...)

Though it gets to be a sort of Rapunzel in the Tower situation pretty quick. Gorgorma kills all suitors, and even inadvertent suitors, if she's given the leeway.

The 'Weaver Women' are the Earth Tribe among the Theyalans. Seems to be straightforward to me.

No, you're not alone. Making an Emperor involves many (well, seven) Egi Yes. Or being a peasant and 'losing one's peasant-ness' - the path of becoming the Emperor involves turning one's back on anything but aristocratic family mythology. Technically, however, Lodril, the Carrot God, Teelo Norri, and Valare Addi are all either plebeian city people or dirty peasants. I can think of more.

The Pentans moved away or were expelled by peasant/urban rebellions. The Lodrilli have as much or greater claim to be native to Peloria, and a right to life and survival. The Pentan claim to pasture their horses on the ruins of cities and in fallow fields is a right that is profoundly elitist ('We are Yelm') and without empathy ('Farmers/City peoples are Dirt'). I'm on the side of the peasants.

Re. the Hill of Gold - I've come to the conclusion that Sheng adopted the persona of the Cruel God (Kazkurtum-Zorak Zoran) to steal authority and the 'soul' from the Antirius part of the Emperor. He proved to the Dara Happans that the Black Sun is a equal or greater manifestation of Yelm than the Red Moon. The fact that this entity shared attributes with the troll god of pain and terror is probably not made obvious except to initiates of his cult/association. The revelation of 'Every Man a Sun' used to expel the inhuman Sun Dragon comes from the use of the 'Man Rune' with the Sky Rune. This interferes with the Dragon Rune from being paired with the Sun if the revelation takes root. Desderius presumably tried to use a similar method to fight the equation or equal footing of Moon with Sky. Sheng probably had a mystic pain/suffering rune he promoted as integral to Solar Heat and burning fire, possibly related to Daga, drought, and the wasting of land (the body of the universe is itself subjected to torment). To Dara Happa on a Horse, the endless grassland is the 'pure land', the 'land without distraction'. Compare the Skyburn. Naturally, Life-Earth and Benevolent Light have an issue with this ritual desolation. Thus the 'Weaver Woman' weds the maimed Emperor. Against rule without mercy, the magical response is to re-erect the loving family (the basis of Lodrilli resistance), but with the defunct father dying to make way for the vital son/Sun. I think it interesting also that there's a quiet set of references in Pelandan (and presumably Naverian) legend to the Moon's rebellion against the Tyrant Father, and to a parallel matriarchy of the hearth that Yelmic cultures always overlook.