jeffjerwin

Desderius tried the same route - the 'Poor Wife's Son' method (p.52, Fortunate Succession) when challenging the rule of Takenegi in c111,260 (1260). We know, therefore that a challenge where the forfeit is the heart and eyes is part of this heroquest. Thus living as the husband of a weaving woman in Doblian was not entirely out of a desire to escape Sheng, but (like the playing of board games - ravenkaaz in the Fourth Wane, and enznestu in the 9th century) part of the process of mustering the 'Every Man a Sun' magic and formal challenge against the Dara Happan Emperor. Despite his unnamed status in the Fortunate Succession, this means that someone indeed passed the Ten Tests and disolodged the Emperor from the status of ruler of Dara Happa. Note this from the Redline History: 'The citizens of the city were sent away and the Emperor began a game of ravenkaaz with the bastard child of the Blue Moon, patiently awaiting the arrival of the barbarians. The Blue Moon Daughter found that she was losing in her game with the Emperor and enlisted the aid of Aronius Jaranthir to finish it for her. The Emperor could have easily completed his win over his old friend, but instead he conceded the game and granted this prince of the Citizen Foreigners special rights and privileges for his victory.' The Bastard Child/Blue Moon Daughter is Great Sister, who seems to testing or opposing the claims of the 'Doblian' emperor. She may have tried to become Empress. Jaranthir (and Carmania?) is her ally. Now in the story of Karvanyar, he emerged as the son of a blind carpenter, Urvanyar, son of the earlier Dara Happan emperor. Urvanyar had been blinded after challenging the Sun Dragon (at Zeranos, which I suspect is a result of a Draconic perversion of the Hill of Gold quest). Similarly, Takenegi had been maimed by stealing his sovereignty over Kostaddi and by massacring the Egi on the Moon. 'Blindness' is the loss of the Sight Portion of the Soul (typified by Antirius, or justice) - created by Yelm and thus the critical part of sovereignty over Dara Happa. By slaying the Sight Egi, Sheng could rightly claim that the Lunar Emperor was no longer Emperor. The Karvanyar workaround is for the blind prince to father a son who can see. In this case, we see Hon-Eel born in 1445 to the 'emperor' and a common woman; there may be some sort of conflation of Magnificus with his father, who might be an Egi (and ex-Satrap of Doblian?). Or perhaps Hon-Eel was the child of the Emperor of the Karvanyar method - note she was 13 when she freed Doblian, meaning she was very precocious. Is it possible that her 'brother' was 11 when he became Emperor? The 'weaver woman' is a known metonym for 'Earth Goddess', and Doblian belongs to a sacrificial Earth Cult, typified by Naveria and Hon-Eel herself. The 'Red King' ritually sacrificed. Not being Emperor of Dara Happa, the resurrection of the status of 'Red King' for a time provides a magical resource against the horsemen. The 'Wise Son' who is Naveria's son by the Red King is a clearly magically precocious child, which may suggest a process of 'expedited adulthood' sufficient to create a proper Solar hero quick enough to harness the power of the coming Wane. I think an Egi was sacrificed (or blinded and castrated) to the Earth to father a son and daughter (Magnificus and Hon-Eel). This may reflect the same method that brought about Yara Aranis. (And resembles Belintar's constant 'taming' of the Earth and Volcano by sacrificing his mortal shell).

Depending on where you set your game Babeester Gor is a similar yet not quite so monstrous figure. Both are defenders of the Earth and innocents, and avengers of the harmed Earth and innocents. In Gorgorma's case, that applies to any abused woman or girl; in Babeester's case, any child or woman. They are specifically gods of justice against patriarchal violence. Any Earth goddess has a connection to her, but Gorgorma does not abide men. (Even Vinga has an avenging aspect) Gorgorma is a goddess that demands much of her worshippers - they lose their capacity to bear children. This is because they gain biting teeth in sensitive places, at least while hero forming. She is a Lodrilli peasant deity, worshipped only by women, and her priestesses are the survivors of sexual violence; the Lodrilli celebrate male sexual prowess, and that probably leads to social problems. Gorgorma's existence helps keep men in line. Dendara is her sister and she comes by to spend time together, like sisters do. She is also the mother (paradoxically) of Yara Aranis, who was born from her through a hero quest of the Lunar Emperor in the Third Wane to avenge the murder of millions of Pelorian women (and potentially, the Moon) under the hooves of Sheng Seleris' horde.

Just realised: the model for the Red Emperor's life as a peasant in Doblian is obviously (in part) the story of Karvanyar, the DH Emperor who defeated the Golden Dragon of the EWF, including the curious importance of playing a board game and the alliance with the Westerners (Carmanians).

I can see we are simply going to disagree, but... 1. No one is forcing Sheng to engage in brutal conquest. That's on him. The Lunars are unlikely to have bothered with him if he had stayed in Pent. In fact, I suspect no empire wants Pent. Peloria, on the other hand, has a reasonable claim to needing defensive acts of conquest if you want to sustain an urban polity - particularly one that others fear for its ideology. 2. Similarly, there are two chief victims of the Lunar Way: barbarians and rebels fed to the Bat; and people who end up taking a wrong turn on the way towards Illumination. The first is more problematic than the second; despite the lack of guard-rails, mystic striving is still mainly a consensual choice. The chief victims of Sheng's Empire are: random peasants who happen to occupy grasslands and oases, and have no stake either way in the fates of empires, and Sheng's own Zolathi and the people around them, who are forced into a mind-bending journey of pain and lose their own free will. That the actual intent of Sheng's 'cooked' almost-illuminates. The Lunar way really does want to liberate people. 3. There are more rational leaders in the Empire relative to SS because so far as I can tell, the only leaders Sheng's empire had was him, his Pentan warlords, and a bunch of Yelmic chauvistists in Dara Happa and maybe bandits and Ignorance mandarins in Kralorela. Oh, and some Tolat and Shargash cultists. 4. Lunar strategy did involve trying to keep the population semi-safe. The Emperor even withdrew into seclusion because direct battle with Sheng was self-defeating and wasteful. I doubt Gorgorma would have trysted with the Emperor if the result wasn't an act of vengeance against oppressors. 5. Finally, some of the darkness of the Fifth and later Wane Empire is a result of learning bad lessons from the who Seleran War. The Arrolians seem to preserve the pre-Fourth Wane idealism a bit better. I don't think the Lunars are clear-cut heroes. But the Pentans are clear-cut villains under Sheng, and I don't see any way around that. Maybe we can move on from this. I don't feel like budging from my view, and I can see that you are steadfast in seeing the Lunars as sinister and chaotic (at least in this context). I'm mostly interested in the following more practical discussions: A. Do you think there was a Dara Happan pretender? If so, I could imagine a slightly more nuanced view of the Celestial Empire. (Though I'm not fond of the DH patriarchal crap, at least they're not a malevolent form of despotism)... B. Sylila is the largest coherent part of the Empire that escaped Seleran conquest. I'm trying to figure out how they were so central to the survival of the Lunar Way yet we know almost notion of that period, who was ruling them, and why they got semi-sidelined after. Carmania became much more dominant instead (I know that's where the Battle of Kitor occurred, but... well, you mention Spolite witchery. I suspect that's a Fifth Wane+ phenomenon in the Heartlands, not earlier. C. The nature of Magnificus interests me. He is said to have been a weaver-woman's husband in Doblian for 11 years before 1460, but that story seems vaguely incomplete. How did he 'realize' he was the Emperor. Did he somehow gain a severed portion of Takenagi's soul? It's not a straightforward reincarnation, as Takenegi was slain either on the Moon or by the Mad Sultanate in 1449, and he was clearly a grown man in 1460.

It doesn't strike you as peculiar that these sufferings seem to be visited on everyone around the mystic? Sheng's path of outward rather than inward power inevitable leads not to the suffering of one disciple, but of everyone else, who may be discarded even more ruthlessly than the ecstatic sacrifices at the altar of Hon-Eel. At least the latter see some measure of bliss instead of nightmare at their deaths.

Speaking on a purely utilitarian basis, there are a lot more spaces for survival and prosperity in the Lunar Empire (or even the Dara Happan empire) than there are among the Pentans, who are both fewer and ruled by fewer. You speak of tens of thousands of dead barbarians, but Sheng's empire embraces a purposeless death for many millions. Also, liberation through suffering offers a path out of suffering. Sheng's worldly dream of empire extends one's suffering infinitely.

Really? Under whose rule would you rather be living? The Red Emperor's or Sheng Seleris? There is a core part - albeit a contradictory part - but such is her perogative - of the Lunar Way that is rooted in compassion. Ask Gerra about it. It may be more exemplified by Great Sister than Moonson, but she has a definite moral role. There is no such balance in the empire of the Pain Star, whose bureaucracy only exists to feed his host and support their ruler's ambition.

Or since Arkat is Nysalor's other and double, ingesting his shadow/light self as a process of self-destruction and synthesis. Alchemy, like the alchemy Sheng used against the gates of Yuthuppa. But what emerged was the Monster Empire and Wakboth...

Nysalor was destroyed by cutting him into seven parts and hiding them. It isn't necessary to 'eat' the Emperor unless you want to ingest and become the Emperor - merely to taking of the soul's seven parts and destroying or isolating them. Sheng desires power, not liberation, so that, clearly, reflects that. I think ritual cannibalism is an innovation of his that shows both contempt for the victim and the god-like ness of the consumer, as the Gods also take human sacrifices.

There's that odd story about the willing sacrifice of the Red King of Karantos by Naveria, the mother-goddess, gustiest of Dara Happa... That is, the reddening sun, setting behind Mount Jernotius, dying...

In my game, he has cut out his own heart so he feels neither compassion nor pity. There's only one other parallel in Glorantha since Time: the razing of Dorastor by Arkat. This is no coincidence.

Sheng does embrace ritual cannibalism as King of Sartar reveals: "[One day the king got a request for help from Sheng Seleris. Argrath, always a man of honor, answered the call and went with an army to Molarisor City. At the subsequent battle, Argrath was at the front of the fight always, and led the attack which cut its way through the Red Emperor’s vampire bodyguard. King Argrath then struck down the Red Emperor. King Argrath would have buried the body, or burned it, with honor, but Sheng Seleris insisted on taking it and cooking it. He then served a great feast to his chieftains, who devoured their eternal foe. After that, although there was a Red Emperor, it was never again the same Red Emperor. Unable to support it own perversity, the evil and corrupt empire fell to its own hunger and devoured itself.]

I believe one did, and he became Jenarong Emperor of Dara Happa (and vassal of Sheng), but his name and images were excised from the temples and scrolls in the mid-1460s. In the Guide: (p.298): 'Sheng Seleris imported forces from the farthest reaches of his empire to pacify Dara Happa. Among these were foreign priesthoods which he tried to transplant into Peloria... this brought about another War of the Suns..." The Guide goes on to say that these heresies were excised after Sheng's defeat. A lot of knowledge was lost and from the Fortunate Succession we know the post-Sheng Yelmic literature was reconstructed based on Alkothian manuscripts that were not tampered with by Sheng. Or so the story goes. I suspect the Sun-Horse tradition was obliterated by the Lunars in the 1460s-70s, and ancient temples dating to the Kargzant and Jenarong periods were destroyed or altered, and were retroactively renamed.

I was rereading my copy of ToRM #16. There's an article on Chariot Gods by Greg in it. It states that Yelm's Chariot was drawn by six horses. Presumably therefore there were six (white) horse gods in Golden Age, who may have also possessed wings, etc. The chariot was damaged multiple times, and perhaps the axle was shortened... (my gloss). In any case, I'd guess Hyalor's Hippoi/Gamari is only one of the mares mated to Kargzant, which one would assume was the lead horse in the herd.

The banner disappeared after the attack on the EWF's capital by the True Golden Horde, which did... include a lot of Pelorians. So it could be mouldering in a Pelorian temple somewhere, awaiting its discovery by SS. However, I suspect it should be associated with Argrath more than AgartuSay. They approached the Arkat Way differently. AgartuSay's relationship to dragons is apparently hostile (viz. Godunya) and Argrath's more positive.

Trolls love elves! Particularly tasty. Seriously, they're delighted to meet them. A nibble here and there probably won't hurt - those leaves grow back.

I'm sure that many cows and personal charisma is more relevant to kingship than piles of gold... There's a reason why Issaries is not a chiefdom cult, like Orlanth, Elmal, or Ernalda...

Or a clever fake was foisted on them by the Colymar while the real thing was hidden away... (Just throwing out a story hook). Of course, no walls would rebuild under those conditions...

I'd also allow it also, in a sense: a Kolating could easily end up with an alynx or wild cat spirit. But they would still be a shaman.

More on Verithurusa, goddess of the Elder Wilds. She is perhaps identifiable with Natha, who was imprisoned in the Fourth Hell/Strange Gods Pit alongside Orlanth and others. This is the Darsenite Miringite or Mingarite Cave. Note the doubling of Orlanth's captivity in Hell, based on Umath's descent into the Underworld. Mahaquata, the Dara Happan goddess of bats and Death, was born from the Hall of Verithurus[a]. She is of course the child of Lesilla/the Blue Moon, the adult Verithurusa. Mahaquata/Death distracted Yelm when Orlanth came to kill him, armed with Humakt. Is Homura the Gem in fact the child Humakt-Mahaquata? *QTA = death, cutting, severing? Homura-QTA + Huma-kt. Also note the probable equation of the Battle of Stormfall with the breaking of the Ice of Devkoruski. This may be the same event that saw the escape of the Hyalorings from the Dome, given that the Elf Sea is water in Six Ages. The problem of chronology here, however, is pretty enormous. It may also be the moment when Hippogriff was maimed, with Galani ending up among the Hyalorings and Kargzant among the Northern Wheels.

He invaded the Empire for the first time in the 1370s. He became a Star in 1443, of course, after conquering most of Kralorela and stealing the sovereignty of Kostaddi. Now, 'Son of the Morning' may refer to his origins in the East, but it may be his mythic star ancestry as well - Theya is a star. But since that was arrived at by hero questing it only applies to any 'brothers' (who would be quite ancient by this time) by proxy. Kazkurtum is an emperor but he is also the Great Darkness, the Empty Emperor (and possibly both/either Zorak Zoran and Black Sun). He is the complete inversion of lawful rule. The Jenarong Rites of the 'Emperors on Horse' is more effective as a means of legitimacy - 'Kazkurtum' is an observation or insult directed at Sheng Seleris, not really a basis for oppressive power, which was his goal. Sheng Seleris has a blueprint for becoming a God and conquering the Moon, based on austerities/ascetic devotions and a pattern of two defeats and a third victory. The Emperor, meanwhile, is trying to find an effective counter, which he only really accomplishes in 1460. The problem of Yara Aranis (his first really effective strategy) is that fighting fear, suffering and terror with fear, suffering, and terror, is only going to create a stalemate. It also runs counter to the lesson of Gerra, the suffering Moon, which is that Compassion and Hope are the path to escaping oppression. Gerra's discovery is closely akin to Second Son's Star Heart.

Re: Verithurusa The Umath connection is interesting, because of course the Blue Moon rises over next to the White Sea, the grave of Umath. Homura, the Gem, sounds like a Star God. He does not sound like any of Umath's well known sons. (In fact, Gem of Heaven is a title of Yelm's!) Star number 35 in the Perfect Sky is the Jewel Flower, which came to the aid of the 'Empress'. When 'Zator' followed Umath into the Pit, 'Many Stars Came Out'. [GRoY, p.74] Cerulia, the later mortal incarnation of the Blue Moon/Lesilla, 'taught immortality by living on the spiral path' (Entekosiad)

Umath fell upon the White Sea, not the Elf Sea/Sea of Death, however... If this was Verithurusa's lover, then Devkuroski [alias Kuroskus] might be her son. As might be Ragnaglar... However, the Life of Sedenya seems (vaguely) to distinguish between them: "When the new god dipped below the horizon, Zaytenera, now curious beyond thoughts of safety, followed. There She met Him Below, a powerful god to whom She was forcefully attracted, and who She took as Her first lover. She left Her white dress behind, and rose again a vital, bright red. She called Herself Verithurusa, which means either the Wondrous Wanderer or the Changing Truth, or both." The new god is Umath. In The Life of Sedenya, this figure is called 'Big Guy' and is the father of Homura, the gem, the weaver of celestial silk. The Lunar Handbooks gave this consort the name Asyrex, and associate him with the 'healed entity' and nurturing husband, though the Life implies he was unfaithful.

The Gamatae are descended from the horse people among the Starlight Ancestor (Londrili) groups - not the Votanki, but the part ruled by the invading Pentans (apparently Storm-worshipping), who switched to worshipping Kargzant. The Six Ages full map seems to exclude most of their area, as they are clustered before the retreat of the Glacier north of the Elf Sea and the Arcos River, and they appear to be the Naztavlan or Northern Wheels. Has anyone contacted them in-game?

Bijiif is also Bijib, Trickster God of the Starlight Ancestors and Lenshi..: "At first, in the earliest times, both humans and deities walked in this world together. But it could not stay so easily. It was human beings – our own ancestors – who made it bad first. Bijib did it, damn him. We liked Bijib before he was anyone. Then one day he told the ancestors that they should be separate from animals, because all the animals were like humans sometimes. But people couldn’t do it alone, and so Bijib gave fire to the human beings, and none of the animals could use it. Because of this the animals went away from the peoples’ camps, angry and unwilling to help any more. As a result, afterwards people had to hunt and to work for food, instead of being fed. But Bijib wasn’t done yet. He went among the gods and made them think that they wanted to be separate too, even though they didn’t know how to do it. So Bijib gave them Ourphaz, and people could not use it. They thought that this would make the people into their food." (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/ancestors-of-the-lenshi-kings/)