Hzark10

Thanks, and hope you find a lot of things that will give you more thought as you go through it. In regards to Constans, Greg never gave me clear understanding of what he thought, but he directed me towards certain sources to ensure I had them when writing. You must remember also, the Constantin was not the first choice for Kingship. It was first offered to King Aldronius of Brittany who defered it to his younger brother. So, this may also be in Constantin's thinking - it is not necessarily first born who would make the best king. Mull over that for a few...

Might want to research and see if any pagan stuff made it into Roman Christianity...

I am thinking that if this approach is taken, those skills that are specific to an attribute could be STAT/2, but if it is borderline, then I feel that the stat is not specific enough. I like the idea that as the attribute increases or decreases, it modifies the skill. I know I am not as good as a dancer as I was as my Dex has slipped. And, yes, if I am almost bedridden, my ability in the skill should suffer. Also thinking certain skills maybe are combination of 2 attributes, for example Weapon skills. A stronger individual would be able to do more damage, but a dextrous one would be able to hit more often. Easiest way to track this is to calculate base, and then the number of points put into the skill. That way, if your attributes increase, your skill goes up and vice versa as you know how skilled you are in it.

Assuming we accept PV's rules in that regarding skills, I would accept the following: 1) Rudimentary knowledge Base 3) Normal competence 10 5) mastery 16 6) renowned, virtuoso level 20 Remember that many times, the number of coins you thrown is your base attribute (Brawn or Presence) plus a skill. Like the attributes, skills are limited to 6. So, giving abilites based on stats in Pendragon: I think this is the way to go. It would also help make conversion easier as the base skills are now based on a stat. I think we have the basis for a good start on conversion and a similar working system for a tweak in KAP.

There are discussions regarding this, rest assured.

The other thing that needs to be accounted for is the different timelines. PV is knighted by the High King Arthur in 433, yet in KAP, Arthur pulls the Sword from the Stone in 510.

But if I am trying to track my skills, how much more work is this? And, more importantly, is this a quick way of skill-creep? Part of the frustration I had as a player, and accepted as part of the system, was I could not raise everything as fast as I wanted to. I had to choose. Make it too easy, or quick, and we will all have generic super characters.

True, but he does get the 1/10th of his father's as well. And, if by chance the father was not dead when the original character entered play, any further accumulation would pass onto the brother. KAP is one game where players need to take the longer view. If one is playing out the entire saga, it is a huge undertaking and may involve four or five generations.

Speaking of which, let's look at those who have a 6 in their Personal Characteristics. As you know, Brawn and Presence are the only two in PV. Brawn: zero, nada, none. Lancelot is only a 5, as is Boltor, the viking warrior. Presence: Aleta, Prince Valiant's wife, Merlin, Queen Guenever, and Morgan Le Fey. In KAP, Guenever is so beautiful, she triggers a supernatural test. But, no where do we see Aleta, or Morgan having the same, so Presence is not a direct analogy for APP. It also is used for magic. That explains Merlin and Morgan. Now, creatures can and do have personal characteristics above 6. So, a conversion must take this into account. Skills are the main theme. Can they go above 6?

Remember that 1,000 Fame will give a character an increase of 1 to any skill, or to learn a new skill. In the basic game, that is all you can do with Fame. You cannot increase either Brawn or Presence. In the optional rules, you can allow this to change, but the cost is 5,000. I would be tempted to change a couple of these two stats based on your original culture, but am open to discussion.

Yeah, the ultra high scores do kinda even out in PV. And since there are only two, they would become somewhat identical. Maybe we should put a little thought on how to differentiate the two systems.

Yes and no. The great thing about Prince Valiant is that it shows a campaign can be created without the use of the Great Pendragon Campaign (GPC). Valiant goes to America and elsewhere, so is not tied to Arthur by any means. Another book, "Book of Sires" is set up to give lots of background to stories in areas that are friendly to Ambrosius and Uther and eventually Arthur, but could be used to create your very own campaign using the information contained within that book. Agree that a character conversion sheet would be awesome as well.

By all means, if you have a question or comment regarding Prince Valiant, feel free to post. Atgxtg is very active, and many of us also had a hand in the new version of PV, so will chime in. But as Atgxtg said, the way the game is set up and played, there is less to discuss, but don't feel bad if you don't understand something, or are confused. Ask, away.

Yup, we are now here. Glad to see you make it over.

I also thought we had agreed that Passions can affect STATS and Traits

I will echo here Morien's preference. It doesn't keep it out of one's grasp if one works for it, and gives the bonus if the player spends the points initially.

Oh, methinks the same. Also thinking these could be mini-games that could be added or ignored by the gamemaster. I think many would incorporate them into the rules, but by keeping them optional, the learning curve would not be as steep.

hopefully, those who are in the position of rule making are following this thread...

Might want to have one have a brush with death, and then in passing during a court scene, mention about how poor "Sir BadLucky" died without an heir and so the liege is taking back the land. Yes, holding out might mean a better wife and all, but if the knight dies, then it becomes harder for the dynastic aspect to kick in.

All true. I was referring to beginning Attributes. However, once game starts and the PKs are earning glory, those who do reach these vaulted heights may not get to keep them as Aging rolls and Mortal (3 rolls) and Major (1 roll) wounds tend to keep them from getting that high. No argument, just ensuring we differentiate starting Attributes, the normal limit of them, and Glory bonus points.

It sounds like you are forgetting the cardinal rule about attribute increases: KAP 5.2, p. 133: "No Attribute can be raised higher than its maximum cultural value (see “Character Generation”). A character’s SIZ may not be increased after he reaches age 21; further, a character cannot increase any other Attribute (STR, DEX, CON, or APP) this way after he reaches age 35." One reason why APP for women is important. Evidently, APP is not held to this exact standard.

But, Morgana would then try different tactics as well. But, as you said, it is a lot of book-keeping if one deigns to do it. Personally, I would keep the timeline as close as possible, unless or until the players try to change it and then decide what would change. Depending on the players, I have deviated from the canon timeline on a couple of occasions.

That is what I have been using as well. So far, no one has played a woman who is striving for that lofty goal, but as a completist, I want to see if codified into the rules. Even if it is just YPMV.

At what point would you say the "face of an angel, face to face with a divine being, awe-struck,etc" kick in? What would be your defence against such mechanics? The one point per will be more powerful than the +1 per 2, but what I would be looking for, is how to defend against such, or how to prevent yourself from becoming putty in someone else's hands. The system that would give a bonus to success because of APP, also needs a mechanic on how to override it. IMHO.

I can see this until the knight surpasses the wife (or vice-versa). I can also see a negative aspect in that the wife could be adversely affecting the husband, and while that might give him/her more glory, could further complicate matters. Instances would include Morgana and her various lovers, a wife of a pious knight who, shall we say, is more base in nature and while the cat is away...