Shiningbrow

As an ESL teacher and (former) English language examiner, I find that really really funny.... My Chinese year 7 students know better than that!

A) yes, but not incredibly relevant in as much as I'd expect most players who love a game to have their copies. What is relevant is the number of books people have to buy (and thus, the additional add-ons to convince the GM their character can/should have... b) "seasoned players".... Seasoned players of BRP (who have already planned their characters) can do CharGen in 15 minutes in most games. "Levelling up" in BRP/RQ is 5 mins for said seasoned players (but, again, something to be said about all games). I do think, however, that having the RQ rules shouldn't really matter, as there's really only the experience and POW-gain rolls to do.

Very interesting to know! Thanks for the info!!!

Yep - fair criticisms/comments! (note, I haven't read through the other 10 posts in response after yours here...) One point I want to look at is the "'roll to hit, if you hit, you do damage" serious under-estimation of what it takes. Sure, once you've figured out that number, that's all you do (which is basically the same as any game). It's what it takes to work out what that number will be that takes a lot more calculation etc. (as I think you were acknowledging in your part 2). One of the features of RQ/BRP is the grittier combat, and thus the meatier combat rolls mechanic. In response to your second - yes, I'm certainly counting the number of times you have to look up books, rules, etc. The claim, was that RQ is more complicated (and the perception that it is too). Is there a point in arguing this on this forum? Unlikely... unless there really are some people here who believe it (and, I have my doubts that there are...)

Knowledge of Runes and Techniques don't use up Free INT, and neither is MP cost of a spell included. So, if you had no spells in memory, you'd still have 15 points of manipulations available. The MP cost will be huge though 😛

While it's high for RQ, it's also very achievable. For that matter, you can just buy the unenchanted iron (700L per ENC), and then have it enchanted. A cuirass will then be 9 pts. Plus 1pt leathers underneath... Failing having the enchanted iron, the bronze cuirass is 6 pts, plus the 1pt leather = 7pts... so, not that amazing to get 3 more.

If there are two Neutralise Magic spells in place, wouldn't the higher powered one just neutralise the lower powered one?? 😛

I totally get what you're saying, Not sure about the "multiple copies of rulebooks" though... they ain't cheap! And having everyone bring their own (if they did) would be (en)cumbersome 😛 Character generation should only be 1 session in RQ. In D&D, it's basically every level up... (yes, I'm exaggerating... but the idea of needing the tables, feats, class abilities, AND multi-classing, and you should get what I mean).

I disagree. Firstly, one simple GM screen takes all of that and puts in in one place if needed. However, the "ability results" is simple maths (and a quick look up if that math is too bothersome or not written down). The A&P and A&D are pretty simple formulae, and there's not really a need to look it up every time. Hit location table - is the same for all humanoids. Other non-humanoid creatures, sure... Resistance table is simple maths, so you only use the table when you CBF. Strike ranks... annoying, but not exactly hard. Not incredibly different to Initiative (depending on how you play it). Granted, the realism of the combat does mean keeping a closer eye on SRs than on Initiative. Now, as I said above, compare all of that with a spell book, or class abilities... you've just mentioned 7 mechanics (not including Specials). These are always the same tables (except HL). How many tables, pages, abilities, spell descriptions, etc do you need handy for D&D? Yeah, we did that too. I agree that's a bit annoying, but it is simulationist... ever looked at Harnmaster??? 😛

The older character sheets used to have those numbers on it. So, if you roll 17, you can pretty quickly see if it's a S/C/I pretty quickly. D&D had too many potential modifiers (often uniquely to certain classes. It's based on the same concept - Base, +Dex + Armour +shield + other modifiers - roll high (plus plus plus). You may not have needed a table, but have you needed to go back over a few rules to get the right modifiers? D&D was full of rules lawyers, and the excess of such could be quite problematic (read: complicated). Character classes are all tabulated. And it takes up time with (perhaps ineffective) GM's trying to sort out each and every single players' classes' abilities, etc. Wizards have (finally) moved away from "one spell per day" schtick (only took a few decades, not including the option in (Unearthed Arcana ??), but they still need to keep a check on whether they've blown a spell slot, particularly a higher one if MM'ed, or lower. Cleric - which level of Heal are you using this time, and do you have the slot to use it? So, those "level-specific magic points" creates an added layer of complication. Therefore, RQ is still by far a simpler system. (read: less complicated) Added complication - durations, ranges, damage (fixed or level-dependant? And is that spell level, or character level, or class level???) Elemental damage, and does the creature have a resistance? In RQ, most spells are the same for duration and range. Since there's no levels, there's not a level-dependant damage. I disagree with your last point... all the current base classes are in the PHB... the thing about D&D is that they kept bringing out new (and not necessarily improved) classes, and I expect no less for 5E (they've already done so!). RGQ currently has a 445 page main rule book, a tiny 204 page Bestiary, about half a dozen pages in the Adventurer's book for rules (the rest is scenario and setting) and an upcoming GoG (which will be extremely useful, but not incredibly necessary). If you really want to get deeply into all the Gloranthan lore, there's obviously a whole host of material - much of which has been around for decades, and some newer stuff that adds flavour (more like scenarios and settings - not rules additions). The D&D 5E PHB is 316 pages alone. The GM's book is another 320 (granted, a large chunk of that is magic items...), and the MM is 350.. so, close to 1000 pages. So, merely the basic rulesets are double the size of RQ. Should we start adding in the add-ons that have been published? Again, to me, that equals "complicated". So, back to my original question which I obviously need to clarify - why is RQ more "complicated" than D&D, and what definition of "complication" are you using?

Yep, I know all that. However, how many tables, references, screens etc does one need to look up in order to figure out the full effects of said combat? While D&D has 1 THACO roll basically, the sheer number of adjustments (add a few here, remove a few there) and the reasons for them can be staggering (conditional effect to add + to hit 😛). In RQ, sure you have more base rolls, but very rarely will you need to do much adjusting. What there is is pretty simple - -40% to hit because X, type thing. Wizard and cleric - which spells have you prepared today, and have you cast them yet? Vs - well, I sacrificed 2 RP last holy day, and the local priest taught me Bladesharp 4. I have 15 MPs. Also, while I get that character creation in RQ has a few more steps, after that, everything is extremely straightforward. I don't need to consult any books (and do you have the right one for your specialist class on hand?) Obviously for D&D, there's table after table after table. So, for my money, I think D&D is a lot more complicated. As evidenced by the number of books that should be purchased (calling them "supplements", but are needed to get away from base classes). Sure, RQ has a few books out there as well, but those tend to be modules. Once you've got the first couple (and, with RQG, you really only want the main book, bestiary, and soon to be GoG

I'm now quite confused by the Moonfire spell... (and, wondering where this Moonburn that @David Scott is talking about...) Firstly, Moonfire has 4 Runes - and thus, you should probably know all 4 before you go casting, or it's going to get very expensive (unless, of course, I've missed something that says otherwise!) Secondly, it's temporal, meaning it lasts a few minutes. Yet, RAW, there's no indication to how many hits a person should take... especially across that area. Is it only once? Or, is it every round? If it's the latter, then this spell would be nasty on the battlefield, especially against Yelmalians, who just love formation fighting. Sure, they're going to start running away, but it's going to hurt while they do. And, in all probability, they'll be incapacitated before they can get out. The standard hit location seems odd... especially compared to the 1D10+10 for mounted combat rolls... this would also make sense for a rain of moonfire...

Would someone please explain why RQ is considered more complicated than D&D? (in terms of mechanics)

Have you tried White Wolf? Vampire, Scion, Exalted etc. All rolls are basically stat + skill. It's impossible (well, should be) to have a roll that doesn't include a stat.

A random hit location. Armour protects as usual. (For Twyyll)

🤣🤣

2) but with a caveat. The Gods are entities (powerful, of course), but still just spirits - manifestations of the Runes - which are primordial forces in the world - not overly different to Malkionism (of at least 1 sect.. I don't recall the name). However, there is no Invisible God behind it all... that part was just made up . So, sure, the gods are real in teh same way that magic and spirits are real... but their existence isn't as intrinsic to the world as assumed. I don't see any reason why a person in Glorantha couldn't take this perspective - especially a sorcerer who's been using their magic for years, and finally coming to that conclusion (hubris/arrogance).

So, no atheistic sorcery? (or are they just fooling themselves?)

Awesome! As you can see above, I had envisaged such an Earth, life, sex cult to be inclusive of men... although perhaps not allowing them to the top ranks. Is the rule for Goddess-Speaker remaining (ie, no need to have given birth)? I presume there will be sub-cults that are decidedly female only? And sub-cults that very definitely reflect the "Don't even think of messing with us" aspect of protecting life, earth, etc?

That would be my take.. but previous versions of RQ were quite specific that various cults required initiates to forget all sorcery spells. Now, I would presume that once you've learnt a Technique or mastered a Rune you wouldn't be allowed into Orlanth.. unless you took an Oath not to use any sorcery again (with the consequence being a visit by your non-friendly spirit of reprisal)

What's a "Big spell"? And, obviously, there are sorcery spells that do things that Sprit and Rune magic currently can't do. (just saying!) So, you're actually suggesting that Lhankor Mhy sages are unifying their minds with the Invisible God (that, I presume, they believe doesn't exist) ??? You're actually supporting an argument I was making above that there are actually different types of sorcery, but have essentially the same effects. One is theistic, the other not. Clearly, I think, Mostali sorcery is not exactly the same. My view would be more that Orlanth and others feel that (as per current sorcery rules), sorcerers are "messing" with their runes. And, if you can mess with the big boys' and girls' runes, then you're messing with all of them. LM, CA, Issaries, etc don't feel so protective or worried.

"...learned 10+ spells,... " - if the GM takes sorcery spells to be skills (and personally, I do), then your starting sorcery can have that... Summary - Philosopher gets one Rune and one Technique - plus 3 spells of varying skill. Lhankor Mhy gets Command Technique and Truth Rune Malkioni get 3 Runes and 2 Techniques at start (no specifics). Aeolians get 2 Runes and one Technique. Lunars are unspecified. So, I'm at a loss as to why you'd go the LM way at character creation. Malkioni would be way better (as it currently stands), unless you're really desperate for the Trickster stuff.And, I'm sure there will be versions of Malkionism that will allow initiations into theistic cults (as the Aeolians do). But, we shall see... Why POW over INT? Power is much easier to get than INT... unless you're desperately hoping the GM will allow for unlimited upgrades of Enhance INT. And, don't forget... INT-12 worth of Techniques and Runes.... so, realistically, minimum INT of 14 or 15 starting. So, you're possibly better off going Fire/Sky first, then Moon (those 2 points in INT are invaluable, while the 2 points to POW are only a couple of seasons away... unless you're smart! A smart sorcerer can get that POWer in 3 days!) " Given the Flight discussion earlier, I figure you can get that effect by casting Hallucinate " I can't see a single GM allowing that, considering the "The hallucination is perceived only by the spell’s caster ...is completely undetectable to anyone else". (my emphasis) RE: cult options.... RAW, you could join Eurmal, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy (and also Chalana Arroy... but pacificism... meh), as they're all part of the Lightbringer gang. BTW, Humakt was illuminated, so having sorcery may not be an issue...

One area which looks decidedly not C&P. Isn't that called a sociopath? So, as per my (facetious) comment above - what's the distinction between "apprentice" and "journeyman" in sorcery? Will there be one? Or doesn't it matter? (or, is the actual distinction between basic student and apprentice who, I presume, will be apprentice-bonded? We shall see...) Is Orlanth's issue with sorcery, or sorcerers? (in the same way that there are spirit magicians and shamans... which is hugely different. And lay members and initiates) By the looks of things, the issue is the type of magic itself, rather than the person casting it.

Just thinking about this on the way into town... Of the seven Lightbringers... two are somewhat unknown or not worshipped now (Ginna Jar and Mortal Flesh), leaving 5. Of those 5 Lightbringers (who were major characters), only 1 has a problem with sorcery! And, ironically enough, it's the dude who tells us "No-one can tell you what to do" 😛

The munchkin response would then be "but, I'm not a full sorcerer.. As an assistant shaman hasn't got a fetch yet, and so could join, my sorcery student doesn't have a familiar yet. Thus..."