Rodney Dangerduck

I am less sure that RQG is an unqualified improvement over RQ2.  However, it is, IMO, better, certainly not worse, one can use it (with mods) with old material, and there is a lot of new material for RQG.

New players should start with RQG.  No reason for them to start with "classic". 

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

RQ is heavily based on community

True.  But, with a tiny group, that might be a stretch to achieve.  Possible, but...

Maybe your two players are the rare offbeat types with little community bond?  That Leika / Argrath uses for tricky special missions?

As when James Bond meets Vesper Lynd on the train: "MI6 looks for maladjusted young men..."

Before this discussion goes even more off the rails, please remember what @Nick Brooke wrote several pages back.  Which is spot on IMO:

"...that’s the disaster that will happen unless your player characters get involved..."

Depending on the mores and sensibilities of your group, your players, in your Glorantha, are supposed to mitigate the worst aspects of Argrath.

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

Lunars have always been the bad guys.

One of the good features of Argrath is that he is pretty tolerant of Lunar civilians.  Much more so than many Heortlings.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Why wouldn't Air be useful in resisting having it sucked out of your body

If you use that logic then Air can be used to augment most anything.

My arrow flies through the air.

My singing is heard through the air.

I jump through the air.

We prefer to be fairly strict on element runes.  Your GM may vary.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

I understand that a single rune can only be used once, not that you can only use one rune. Maybe I am wrong.

The rules are a bit scattered and challenging to gather together - (hint to Chaosium) it could be useful to collate them into a single sheet or so.  Using a Rune or Passion is "inspiration", and has the advantage of lasting longer than a "mere" skill augment.  But, there are restrictions as well: page 229

"Only one attempt at inspiration can be made in a situation—such as the duration of a combat, battle, assembly
meeting, magical ritual, etc.
....
If the adventurer has already rolled to be inspired by a Rune or Passion during the situation at hand, they cannot
try to be inspired again, even by a different Rune or Passion."

So one could use Moon to resist the evil tapper in the first encounter.  If you then meet his evil twin in a second encounter that session, you cannot use Moon again (see below), but could use Earth or Hate Vile Tapper or whatever.

page 229:

"Finally, once a Rune is successfully used for inspiration, it cannot be used again that session"

Note, many GMs are more relaxed on this, YGMV.

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Victims will use their Air rune to augment their POW vs POW roll, and use their Earth rune to augment their CONx5 roll

They can't do both.  At least how we understand the rules.  Can only use one Rune or Passion per "scene".  Nor is it clear that Air is useful in POW vs. POW, that would be Moon.  (Or Sing, Dance, etc...)

Still, the idea that opponents would try extra hard againt "that evil tapper" is true.

4 hours ago, Eff said:

The most straightforward explanation is that Argrath had no more desire to annihilate the Lunar Empire than Oedipus had to have sex with his own mother

Oedipus, while trying to avoid his fate, unknowingly killed his father and slept with his mother.  When he discovered his sins, he gouged his eyes out.

Argrath, as I read things, embraces his fate, does his stuff deliberately, and shows little regret.  It would be a much better story if I am wrong!

As for Jeff's position that this is just how Glorantha Ages end, yes, there's some  A Canticle for Leibowitz recurrent history in Glorantha.  I'm just hoping that third time is the charm and it ends better   🙂

1. Out of all the Tricksters in the world, he doesn't pick "Rudolf with the Jolly Red Nose", he picks Elusu the Murderess.
2. Nor does he pal around with the Dread Pirate Roberts or Harry the Pissed.  It's Harrek the Berserk.
3. As @John Bilesbrilliantly writes, "Argrath unleashes Sheng Seleris, who is Genghis Khan's flaws and none of Genghis' better qualities"
4. He's a superstar Mary Sue.  Boring.
5. But, most of all for me:  Why?  Why this desperate urge to do absolutely anything to destroy the Lunars?  "Boo hoo, those mean Lunars killed my parents"?  Trite.  When we rolled up Family History for our Colymar PCs, it was extremely rare for any parent or grandparent to still be alive.  Many were devoured by The Bat.  I was so shocked that my granny had survived all those disastrous battles that she is nicknamed "The Survivor".  Some of our PCs have a very high "Hate Lunar", but none, I hope, are monomaniacal psychopaths.
   (edit added) We have had many many past PCs with far far darker backstories than Argrath.
   (another edit added)  The Lunars do horrible things, but they have a philosophy, a vision, that could be used as motivation for True Believers.  I'm not seeing that for Argrath, but maybe I'm missing it?

That said, Argrath does have a lot of interesting and positive qualities, (see the previous thread reference by OP) and hopefully most campaigns will be able to roll with him in some form.

Just saw @AndreJarosch post.  Important advice: don't name your children Argrath yet...

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Sartar is not a typical dry karst environment. There is no evidence for irrigation farming here. (If there was, there would be reservoirs upstream.)

Recent posts by @Jeff imply that Sartar's climate is "like Walnut Creek California".  Which gets quite dry in Summer.  June through September get a total of about half an inch of rain.  Apples and most crops would need some primitive irrigation.  Or magic.

I'm sure you'll get some great ideas from here.

But a good "lazy" solution would be to run, or at least look at,  Pegasus Plateau

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is great fear in the winter of 1626 and 1627.

"Now is the winter of our discontent 
Made glorious summer by this son of Sartar"

Sorry, couldn't resist...

The discussion here has been useful in giving me and my character more ideas on how to better assess Argrath, and how to be more openminded.  Thanks everybody.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Most Sartarites would only know that he helped defeat the Lunars at Pennel Ford

Thanks for pointing this out, valid point.  But his participation was apparently so forgettable that our group, who has been trying to figure out "which PCs have ever met or seen Argrath?" had completely forgotten this.  We all remembered Broyan, Samastina, Harrek, Harrek, or possibly Harrek.  This may help our reaction to him though - several of the PCs "fought with great distinction" at Pennel Ford.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Kallyr's reign ended so badly.

Her life ended badly (or heroically???).  One could argue that her reign ended o.k. - Lunars driven from most of Sartar and in civil war.  If the stupid troglodyte Tribal chiefs had elected the boring, manipulative, but extremely competent Leika, things could be pretty good for Sartar.

Your point that there is some trepidation about the House of Sartar is important, enlightening, and interesting.  Is it time for a "Glorious Revolution"?
 

As I read this, and I could be misreading, there seems to be a belief that Humakti are more willing to "see blood" and deliberately kill rival clansman, say, on a cattle raid.  Is that your concern?

Why?  Assuming the rival clan is acting with reasonable honor, isn't allied with Delecti, etc. I don't see it.  Orlanthi and Storm Bull and Babs Gor can be just as vicious and hot blooded.  Often more so.  IMO, Humakti are typically more dispassionate, so typically calmer in battle.

@Jeff Wonderful answer, thanks.

I think the issue some are facing is that, in the ~1626 timeframe, his wonderful good accomplishments are as yet unknown, awaiting the uncertain future.  And his unsettling aspects are all too apparent in the present.  Most groups and GMs should be able to work through it.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Lie about a geas just plain fails.  Lies about religious dogma are very tricky.

Imagine the target is a Chalana Arroy.  And the Trickster says "Chalana Arroy commands you to kill that sleeping baby".

In any case, it's a horribly broken spell.  It has always been broken.

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

I think that says more about you than the fictional character.

Will there be more material coming out (hopefully soon) describing, and showing, the positive aspects of Argrath as of 1626-1627?  Much of the existing material, e.g., the list of his close companions, is off-putting, and I think some players ~~overreact~~ react negatively to that.

Or, please point me to some of the existing positive material.  Thanks.

I would not punish the Humakti who was lied to about his geas. YGMV.

If a Humakti was captured, placed into metal armor, and force fed cooked vegetables (against those geas), would the God punish him?

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Nice to have as a power base if possible? But everything and anything is ultimately expendable.

If this is truly Argrath's attitude, I sure hope our PCs pick it up **before** we invite him back in glory to be Prince of Sartar.

2 hours ago, Stephen L said:

Yes she wants to liberate Sartar, but witnessing the Dragonrise, she realises that she'd rather there be a Sartar to liberate

I like that take.

Which begs the question: assuming Argrath was behind this, does he care if there is a Sartar to liberate?

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Minimally, raising the dragon resulted in not just Lunar deaths, but deaths of important Sartarites (e.g. Kangharl).  They still have kin, which means they could demand wergild and justice from Kallyr

Maybe that's technically true.  But please, those kin should really grow a pair up.  It's an <bleep bleep bleeping> war! 

How many died in past disasters (or even victories)?  Did they demand weregild from Broyan? 

By ending (for the time being) the Lunar Occupation, how many has Kallyr saved??

39 minutes ago, icebrand said:

I'd completely allow that. Singing bothers spirits, and it should give a bonus because it's happening during the combat.

Page 246 is interesting.  Seem that you want to sing for a couple of rounds.  But not totally clear when this applies. 

13 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Which means it also can't be dispelled.

Nor does Countermagic help.

3 hours ago, Glorion said:

Lie is an Instant spell, so not extendable.

Correct.  The Extension is for "Arouse Passion."

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes sure, my "overpowered" spell is only if there is no "exit condition"

With Extension 5, it could last for a year.  That should be plenty of time to cause havoc.  🙂