French Desperate WindChild

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

and Death provide change *within the system*.

It is fun that I totaly agree with you with the only exception that Death provides stasis (aka once dead you cannot change anymore, you cannot travel anymore)) and Life provides change (you move, you learn, you create, you build, you destroy, etc...)

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Seems to me that the Lunars killing Orlanth and Ernakda. however temporary it may be, is proof that a god CAN be killed in Time and not just in the Godtime. 

not a proof at all 🙂 just what some gloranthan mortals conclude based on the facts they experiment (no more wind, no more plant, no more magic, etc...)

Or maybe even not a mortals conclusion, just a dramatic name describing the desperate period

what "really" (really from glorantha perspective of course) happend is not known.

Maybe it was just the use of some magic reinforcing the  power of the net, blocking even more what the gods (these gods) can normaly interact

Maybe it was another effect, a power "miroring" the compromise : now not only the gods cannot interact by themselves with the mundane world but the mundane world (the worshippers and the physical domain - earth and air -) was unable to interact with the other world.

Maybe something focusing their attention elsewhere, so strongly that they forgot the dragon pass for seasons, some magical drugs (same with sleeping more than dead)

etc

22 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

the gods can die like mortals can

I know at least 4 "states" of dead gods :

those who were lost in oblivion (are they totally ... "off ?" or just in another dimension ? who knows ?)

those who are "dead" like Genert. What it means for them, except mortals cannot join them.. I don't know. Maybe what is called "Death" is just "We remember but we can't interact"

those who are "dead" like Umath. What it means for them I don't know. Maybe what is called "Death" is just "We remember, we can't interact, but we can interact with what is clearly part of them"

those who were "dead" like Yelm, and a lot of others gods. Probably not dead like Genert or Umath, as they were able to come back.

In all cases, I would not say that gods can like mortas can

It is probably different. Orlanth did not kill Yelm with a sword but with the death itself. What does it mean ? Don't know. Is it possible to understand what it means ? Godlearners don't seem to have totally understood anything

Is their a irl canon explanation ? I don't think so. So answers are just what each of us understand and interpret the texts. Now answering about a god death without answering about the time and its impact, the pre-time and its rules, the differences between runes and gods etc.... seems a bottom less pit where you can only find questions and distractions. And maybe... if you are lucky enough to survive and continue your travel... In other words if your powerful and fool enough to follow Eurmal path you may find at the end a formless thing, bring back to us and ... just push the "end world" button

On 4/23/2024 at 9:45 AM, Mameluco said:

I must confess, I'm a bit disappointed the Lunar Magic is just a reprint of the 3e rules. I was expecting a new perspective like what Chaosium did for the sorcery rules in RQG. I'm going to buy the book, of course, but it seems like a missing opportunity to me.

I have not any issue with that. I had an issue with the previous version, where lunar magic was "just" sorcery technics applied on spirit magic. Now, at least there is a difference 🙂

However something always disturbs me : there are specific rules or content on very specific characters (lunar initiate ... already illuminate, already priest / runelord; but also path of immanent mastery, comb and braid, etc...)

Rules or content means efforts for very specific cases. And there is one case... one case which is the promise of the games names and period. Runequest, Herowar

So I m happy that there was no change, no effort, with the lunar magic. At least, it saves time/workload on something I expect for more than 3 decades !

Note than deeper work on dragon pass, sorcery etc... is a good thing in my opinion. Just the big issue with the game is (imo) there are too many scopes to cover properly and satisfy every gloranthomaniac.

So if the strategy becomes "less efforts on very specific cases, more efforts on the heart of the concept (we play hero) and the heart of the world (DP + peloria) " I can only applause.

Just let JC makes a lot of exceptional work on strange and far lands, weird monsters and very local (sub)cults instead of fixing the missing part of the heart

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

If you have free will but no mechanism to act upon it, do you have free will at all?

you have, but you are in a jail 🙂 

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I've been mulling around how to operationalise that approach in game contexts, but I think having to justify how each spell you use further's Orlanth's cause* would get tiresome pretty quickly. Perhaps saving that for BIG MAGIC would work well.

oh for me (as gm) I don't ask a reason every time. The point is more when the request seems to me bad "how do you explain that Orlanth will give you his power to kill your brother, breaking a taboo ?"  If the anwser is reasonable, I let it do. If the answer is questionable, I ask a roll and let the dices decide. If the answer is obviously ridiculous, it doesn't work. An other impact is the character devotion: if the god refuses, automatic loss, if the character lies to convince the god, a devotion roll, to check if there is a loss (no possible gain then)

I don't know how far from canon (maybe it is canon, or part are canon 😛 )my answer is, but it is what I understand, or want to understand, and in all cases what I play:

Gods are not machine or computer programme, gods decide and are sentient. The compromise does not change it.

When the world started, the first thing who was was a rune. A rune is not sentient, a rune is a mechanism.

Then, call it evolution, luck, or new thing, the god appears as a combination of runes and sentience.

Maybe some gods appears before some runes but in all cases, a god cannot appear before its own runes.

Then here are my gods : a combination of runes and sentience

When you are a sorcerer you don't need gods, you need runes. you learn how to manipulate the runes.

When you are not sorcerer, you can have effect magic in two ways :

1) you are powerful enough to create yourself the effect. That's spirit spell, heroic spell or heroic/shaman ability you know

2) you are not powerful enough to create yourself the effect. You need the power of someone else. That's rune spell. You need to call a god power (from a standard cult) or a great spirit/entity power (from a spirit cult)

18 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

So as far as I during history gods have no free will and are limited to doing whatever they did during the godtime, but there's various points in history whe the gods do something different

then based on "my" god definition :

Since the compromise, gods are still sentient. So they have free will...or semi free will ^^

What they sacrifice is not (in my opinion) their will, but what they can do in the mundane world:

they can't act by themselves in the time world.

Of course there are exceptions, for me in two ways:

When the god time merges with the mundane world (like the Holy country for example when Belintar led it)

When the compromise is broken by another god (or a new god as Nick just said before).

The other point they sacrificed (but maybe they did not imagine it when they "signed") is the capacity to change and create new power. They cannot anymore discover new powers, new manners. They have to follow patterns they created before the compromise. For example Uleria or Chalana will never find a way to kill someone. Then even are not able to imagine that killing someone could be an option to solve an issue they are facing (If there is no myth where they killed someone, of course; but I don't know any of them)

But they can communicate (dream or other ways if they decide to tell you something when you don't ask them, divination or divine intervention if you ask them)

And of course they can act through yourself (when you cast a rune spell, your energy and pray is used to open the gate, ask your god, then the god uses its power to have the effect)

And of course (for me, for other this of course is not of course at all, it is the opposite 😛 ) even if you succeed to cast your rune spell (or divine intervention), they can decide to not answer your request if they decide ("free will") that's what you demand is "wrong" (see the sun county supplement describing how Yelmalio refused to save a lot of his rune lords who tried a divine intervention to save themselves from the dragons)

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I guess — I don’t claim to be any kind of expert — that you do it with proxies, with someone “identifying as” Wakboth, as W his bad self is out of commission. The question then is, who is the proxy if a Wakboth cult is not currently viable? Who plays the rôle of a god besides their cultists? I freely confess that the answer is above my pay grade. (I imagine one meta-reason for a cult of Wakboth being declared impossible is to prevent PC diabolists.)

Argrath’s LBQ — like its prototype — is different because at that point the Devil is loose.

Maybe see the thing with another perspective :

a) when you heroquest you meet the god. or a proxy but for you it should be the god because if you start to doubt that’s not the god, you are in a path where at the end you will remember you are not wearing your god’s aspect but just a wood mask (or tattoo or … any mundane gear) and your quest may fail only because this.

b) when you meet the god, you may learn things (for example how to cast runespell) so why not you learn a wakboth runespell 

c) then you come back and now you are in the mundane world and you know how to cast Wakboth spell

d) so as any « good evil », you cast the spell… the only issue is there is no one who will answer (no Wakboth) because now he is not here. Then no one answer, you are  the gate , fine but the god’s energy will not use the gate just because there is no energy now

e) no energy no spell effect

f) no spell effect = no need to worship no one

g) of course meeting a chaos god may give you some chaotic feature because even if Wakboth is not any more, chaos is still here.

Imo

if the blow is instant death you can’t heal them (chest head etc with enough negative hp) except very heroic power you cannot heal your friend when the head is far from the rest of the body

in other cases, as we are not with action points but SR I would rule like this :

round 1

our guy is wound at sr 12 (or any) and no one is able to heal/save his life 

round 2

Ask who does what (intent)

if someone says « heal the guy as soon as possible » 

fine that’s possible

if anyone has other priority… well our guy is dead

The point for me is not the SR in the next round, it must be the first thing the healer does. It is a question of priority

At the end of the day it is the same logic when someone is dying at SR 3 and others decide to not heal the victim because they want to hit at SR 6

At the end of the round the victim is dead as no one saved her/him when they had the opportunity 

On 4/10/2024 at 6:50 PM, Demishadow23 said:

this middle ground would allow people to have access to the books even when we have boats taking four month trips. Everybody is happy. 

everybody... everybody...

At least not me, I'm still waiting English-speaker custormers* to have access to the books even if I buy only the pdf version.

Following your proposal, that means, even if I "need" less than other customers, I would have to wait more than them to access to the book ? No there would be at least one guy not happy  / more frustrated than today / maybe angry  with this strategy.

* because non English speakers will wait a lot of months / years / lives... to read this fabulous content in their own languages, don't forget these poor guys 🙂 

53 minutes ago, radmonger said:

But you do specifically need 20 thanes.

yes of course, but once you have 20, and one of them disappear, you don't need to hire more than one

and even you already have 20, and some of them are not rune lord, will the community decide to "fire" one of them to give the position to a better candidate ? sometimes yes sometimes no.

What I say is that being a runelord is not just a test (minimum level) but a contest (a minimum ranking)

48 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd think any candidate would have already proven themselves in such a way before they get the promotion...

I can't agree 😛 because it means you get more runelords than you need.

It is like any community (clan ring in glorantha, mayor irl and glorantha, CEO of irl company, etc...). You need one boss not twenty, even if you have twenty good proven candidates. I agree that sometimes, you may decide to have two runelords and not one, but that means you can "offer" them (standard of living, gear, supports, etc...)

On 4/5/2024 at 9:43 AM, Darius West said:

non-spirit deities

by the way, is this notion still relevant  :  gods (like Orlanth or Yinkin) are different than great spirits (like Kolat or Fralar) ?

I have deliberately opted for Yinkin because I have a memory of a war between gods and spirits with Yinkin "betraying" the beasts spirits, choosing  Orlanth's side.

both "no" and "yes" make sense for me, with the only issue with "yes" is there is a question to answer "what is the difference then ?"

there are, for me, different things to keep in mind to have a new  rune lord.

1) there must be a need of a new runelord.

the community/temple/clan/tribe/kingdom/empire opens a new position and is able (and wants) to support a runelord, or a previous one left the position (death, retirement, ....)

And the cult agrees to appoint a new runelord. Of course this agreement is often obvious but sometimes... if the community is a band of mercenaries, or if the mundane leader who wants a runelord has... some disagreement with the temple leader.. Argh politics !

2) there must be a good candidate

enough abilities, enough power, enough probity (from the cult perspective of course).

I see the rules requirements (90% in ..., x rune pool, ....) as a guideline, not a rule personaly. At least from the mundane position. If you need a holy warrior, you choose the best qualified and that's done. Of course if all candidates are unable to run more than 2 minutes well... you may wait and hire someone else 😛 

Saying that... I imagine there is a ritual when a candidate can prove he/she has the capacity (morale, physical, magical) to become a runelord

that may be an heroquest or maybe just a "mundane" heroquest reenacting the god(dess) activities.

If there are several candidates and one position, it should be a tournament (same principle, the difference being that only the best is appointed, succeding the ritual is not enough).

In fact I imagine something like the Melisandre tournament but more difficult, more dangerous. A kind of rare festivity (I would not say that all cults have new runelords every year)

so initiates, priests, runelords, lay members, friends, families, clans, ... may participate in some ceremonies, games, etc... After a lot of more or less dangerous tests, the last step/station the candidate(s) is(are) expected to leave the community as initiate, and come back after days as a successful runelord once a heroic issue is solved :

find a cult artefact, destroy a chaotic nest, save some community member trapped by a powerful monster/cult or community ennemy, etc...

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is Yelmalio going to have a full write-up of the different versions? So that, Kargzant will include different skills/spells?

How many people who can cast fire magic would like to join Yelmalio (so lose these powers)  ?

I don't know how different is PHP -yelmalio, but in all cases he would have at least the core (no)power : no fire.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Illuminated Yelm has no time for curiosity? Nysalor’s is the cult of asking questions, and on one way of looking at it, Nysalor is the sun (or a fragment or aspect of the sun). Perhaps before finding himself on the sharp end of Death, Yelm lacked curiosity, but now? (And perhaps Orlanth is more changer than changed or changing — a catalyst, rather than a subject of chemical change. Locked outside of Time, indeed.)

As for whether Yelm is interested in shamans:

• I find the incorporation of shamanism into the Yelm cult (the Golden Bow) particularly fascinating. We have a great celestial entity (the Sun God) who has several sons and messengers who are charged with watching and helping mortal beings. The shaman is an initiate who specializes in dealing with the spirit world … The Golden Bow is a path for a Yelm initiate who becomes a shaman.
  — Jeff Richard, Notes on Shamans

Maybe we can consider the Golden Bow to be a son of the sun in the same way as we (in these dark days) consider Vinga to be a daughter of the wind. And I concede that this says nothing about independent or “Horned God” shamans and the sun/Yelm.

Another way of looking at it is to see a god as a collection of short tape loops of musical clichés which can be mixed and amplified — edited if you are an experimental heroquester (otherwise read only) — to produce magical effects, with more sacrificed POW getting you a bigger PA. To that way of thinking, the gods have no interests — no mental states of any kind — and shamanism is just one approach to working in the studio.

well I was speaking about the 'traditionalist' Yelm, the one who ruled the world before this !$$* wind disturbed the perfect and endless world

Of course when I spoke about shaman vs Yelm, it was about shaman who were not initiate of Yelm. Would Yelm be curious by this weirdos hunshen shaman who just want to say to his clan "hey have you seen that ? now I can let the sun blink with my hand !"

That doesn't mean a hunshen shaman will always be "ejected", just that is not because a shaman is able to meet a god, a foreign god (I like @Eff's words), that of course the god will accept to discuss. it must be hard, it needs preparation. Hard like a heroquest. Preparation like a heroquest.

30 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think you forget - curious!

Using the same analogy, many adventurous spirits (people) were able to get into the courts of the elite because they were different, interesting, etc,. and even often came to prominence in such courts.

an interesting point I hadn't in mind. However it may depends on both the shaman and the god.

Not sure Yelm will agree with you -or even to consider curiosity as a divine value, but Ernalda why not yes.

the danger then is to consider (imo) that any shaman is by default "a curiosity". I would in that case ask why the god (or its guards) may accept to meet the character. In all case that should be a challenge

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Although Cults of Prax (ClassicPDF, p. 71) seems to set this up as rank hypocrisy:

• Enemies of the cult who defy the pacifistic and healing ways of the cult
  will find themselves unable to resist infection with disease …
  and never recover from it without the appropriate Cure Disease spell
  from the cult.

If your cult’s spirit of reprisal is called “Infection”, just how opposed to death, disease, and suffering are you? She is all sweetness and light until you oppose her and then the gloves are off. “Now I am become Chalana Arroy, the destroyer of immune systems.”

CA is a dangerous lunatic. I can think of two ways to end death, disease, and suffering: retcon the universe, so the World Machine was never set in motion; chuck everything into the memory hole that is Kajabor. The truly pious CA cultist is always working on some mad scheme or other. Don’t let them catch you looking at them funny or you may find yourself with a nasty cough that just won’t shift and … 😉

I think the point is not CA send an infection, she just doesn't care that now you have one.

1 hour ago, Jens said:

Chaotic beings are explicitly excluded from CA vows to never harm an intelligent being, and they are under no obligation to heal them. That doesn't mean an individual Healer will attack Chaotic beings on sight, or chose not to heal a chaotic individual, just that they are not compelled by their usual vows.

Oh I agree

i was talking about the goddess herself who tried (or not) to heal chaos 

In my view she had no enemy (aka no one she wants and tries to wound/kill)

See the gods as emperors or great kings. Forget that they are different in nature, just keep in mind that they have more powers and a court (their priests)

So, now imagine that an unknown (a shaman) wants to talk to this emperor.

I would say it is difficult. In some case, due to the culture (the pantheon), the emperor himself (the god), and the period (the cult) the access may be more or less difficult.

For example it is very easy to speak with the actual french temporary king (yes we use the nickname "president" but it is the same)

And I m pretty sure it was impossible to speak with the previous emperor of China.

But in all cases, once our "noone" meet the emperor.. What could think the emperor ? Who is this guy who disturbs me ? Why should I hear him ?

Now remember that our emperor is in fact a god. With all the dimensions, will all the divine powers.  What will happen ?

So impossible is not french shamanic but imo, it would be hard and in all cases the god reactions will probably be between neutral and hostile

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Chalana Arroy is a mortal enemy of Malia, and eliminating her children is what she does. If these happen to become tangible, then they can be eliminated - possibly by fire rather than weaponry, but removed from Life.

oh I was convinced that CA try to heal everyone even chaos. But you're one of the lore master, I will not challenge you 😛 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

with Chalana Arroy fighters able to beat the manifest diseases to death?

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

Here we move into grey area. Chalana Arroy can fight spirits, but will likely have a moral dilemma when in the Dead Place, they are no longer spirits or diseases,

it depends on what did @Joerg mean by "beat".

Of course if Joerg have in mind to "kill" these physical entities, we can conclude that he is an illuminate agent of Nysalor, Sedenya or Chaos trying to convince "pure" white ladies to lose their faith for something more ambiguous.

But if the CA "fighters" do what they can to heal these physical entities the fight is a non violent fight, just huge efforts. After all CA try to heal Malia, I think ?

how does their disease nature appear in the dead place ?

- If it is physical, they can offer first aid, surgery or alchemy heal.

- If it is more some kind of behavior, we may see disease spirits as spirit experiencings mental illness (after all if they propagate voluntary suffering, that's a kind of mental pathology) , then they may use fast talk, orate, sing etc.. to "confort" them and maybe "transform" them to "just spirit", no more disease spirits (if one day they live the dead place)

12 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

So first aid is your only hope to heal a wound and stop bleeding. Maybe a crit or special cleans the slime out as part of the healing.

cut the limb ! quickly !

Another option would be that the dust itself may clean the wound. In the same way that the dust causes damage to your body, the dust may damage the slime.

something like cauterization.

On 3/24/2024 at 2:48 AM, Ali the Helering said:

Since Broos can breed with anything, I should imagine he is linked with whatever animal is locally derided.

I agree

Imo, Thed is the mother of the broos in the same way that Stormbull is the father of herds.

There is no reason to see "previous" Thed as the mother of only goats in the same way that Stormbull is not the father of only cows

the simple way I see is there was a couple of herds ancestors. The father is Stormbull, the mother is Thed.

Then Thed was a victim of Ragnaglar or voluntary join her husband's brother in evil acts. Curse is not based on intention but on acts , and she was cursed.

That may explain why Stormbull reacts as he reacts.

Another option is there is no "previous" Thed, but only one herds storm parent. Maybe this parent was abused by Ragnaglar and "split"

one part reacted to this evil act by developping a terrible hate of chaos. And this part used the most brutal form of herd : the bull. This part is Storm bull who wants to destroy his tormentor

the second part reacted to this evil act by developping a terrible perversion to seduce (then to protect herself against) her tormentor. This part used a perverted form of herd: the broos. This part is Thed who wants to "fix" the injustice she lived by sharing her experience to any innocent people, like she was before she met the mad god.

15 minutes ago, svensson said:

the Non-Covenant heretics

I m not sure they are seen as heretics. I mean they (or their  ancestors) where not here, not included in the covenant. They are outsiders. Of course {any pejorative word of your choice} not because they don't worship Waha ( why should they ? they are nothing for him) but because they are nothing, they are prey or danger, strangers, barbarians, etc.... Of course individuals may change the view, but more as an individual exception confirming the rule.

In the same way that a Rathori would say that a Malkioni is a stranger, a barbarian, nothing for his god-spirit-ancestor so a prey or a danger

1 hour ago, svensson said:

b] When you guys are generating a Praxian brave, what skill-level of mount do you give them, 'cavalry or 'war'?

rune lord or priest, very very good warrior (included mounted weapon) > 100% (I imagine the only way to be rich enough to buy or get it from the clan chief)  ==> war

noble (occupation) ==> 50% war, 50% cavalry

others ==> cavalry

imo praxians tribes are not rich enough to provide war "machine" at will. A war mount needs a lot of season, it is a big investment.

then only those who are so effective that they are praised (and have collected enough slaves) could hope to obtain the best mounts of the clan

of course... when your dad is the clan chief and your not too bad, you may expect it after your first exploit..

1 hour ago, svensson said:

a] Mounts of all sorts are a lot cheaper if you're breeding them and not paying with cash. One would suppose that Pol Joni Eiritha-women can keep the costs manageable and increase breeding of war-zebra sized mounts to a reasonable level.

more a question than an answer : is it so easy to bread mounts from another tribes (magically, mundane secret, ...) ? Is there even any taboo to ride them (from a praxian perspective) and worst to breed them ?

I imagine that when a bison (or other) warrior get a sable (or other), he see it more as food than as mount (well maybe as a pack animal if there is a lot to carry)