Squaredeal Sten

In My Glorantha, which i do try to keep close to canon. 1. What do the other Lightbringer cults know about sorcery and the LM.... They probably don't distinguish between Lhankor Mhy rune magic and sorcery, it's all "LM stuff" to anyone outside the cult. What do the other Lightbringer cults know about sorcery at all? Not much other than that the Malkioni do it, that it is slow but powerful and that it is not rune magic. and, of course, that some Bad People used it in the past. 2. What social roles do LM sorcerors fit ? ...... a look at the LM sorcery spells in RQiG shows that all or most fit the "Knowing God" archetype. It's all the scholar / knowing things cult, that's the social role. it seems unlikely that a sorceror would pursue the other LM role of bureaucrat. 3. How do LM sorcerors think their magic fits the Western, Arkati and Lunar/Carmanian traditions of sorcery ? Or do they see it as something completely different ?..... They regard it as one more set of techniques for Knowing. And of course Lhankor Mhy wants to know everything. What good LM, wanting to imitate his god, wouldn't want to know more about those traditions? Yes the god learner stuff is incredibly dangerous, and that's why the LM cult won't give the god learner knowledge to outsiders IF they get it, and are very picky about the LM they would tell if, just speaking theoretically of course, they were to gain any of it. But the god learner history is not just pr even mostly about sorcery, it's mostly about heroquesting to change the myths. Do any of the LM know god learner sorcery? That's classified and you have no need to know. But a small set of people know that in 1621ST Minyarth Purple received this scroll sealed with lead seals, opened it very carefully.... and isn't talking about it. Never repeat our conversation and don't write it down! Now that you know these things you are forbidden to travel inside the Glowline. The Lunars would arrest you for spitting on the sidewalk and torture you until you tell them what you don't know. Then they would feed you to the Crimson Bat. 4. What do non-sorceror LM think about LM who use sorcery ? ..... that all depends on which non-sorceror. Most don't even know that the LM cult dabbles in sorcery. The Malkioni, of course, think there is nothing wrong with the wise knowing and using sorcery but they have doubts about the LM level of wisdom: How wise can they be if they don't recognize the obvious, inescapable, logical conclusion that there is an Invisible God and that Malkion is / was his / her / its prophet, and LM is a mere emanation? But a more practical question is: Can the non-sorcerors tell the difference between sorcery and other magic in the field in real time? IMHO probably not. We have not been told that the "sensory manifestations" are qualitatively different than for rune or spirit magic, and those are subject to wide variations by spell and by cult. Maybe if you were a Rune level member of all cults you could tell by elimination of all other possibilities, IF a sorcery spell's manifestations were different.

Actually not so. The track record of results from asking it directly is not good. People pose and lie and mislead and exaggerate and flip into bargaining mode when asked such things directly. Especially when price is one of the considerations. (And the difference between print and PDF prices is definitely important.) I can give you a RW war story..... but that's getting pretty far from Runequest as a topic. That's why marketing researchers developed conjoint analysis, asking about combinations of characteristics indirectly but methodically to get derived preference; and also why people analyze sales figures, looking at demonstrated preferences. And also why we do qualitative research. Yes we do ask those direct questions - but it's sensible to doubt the answers, and they should just be starting points.

Yeah, but this player has been successfully teased by Jeff Richard & co., and so I as GM have to have a decent answer to the basic questions in 2021-2022, not in 2027 when a book comes out with more on sorcery, perhaps a book on the various Malkioni sects.

Oh, at this point I think i have enough to run on. The Adventurer in question is really not in a position to take off right now and do two seasons (or more) in the Jonstown Library, or alternatively to visit Nochet for the purpose of studying sorcery. I have to designate or create a potential instructor - and the player has to figure out how to meet that instructor, how to get the time for the instruction, etc.. What will it take to get that sorcerous LM to accept the PC as a student? What would it take for the Adventurer to convince the whole party to divert to Nochet? Will the Adventurer make Rune level first? Which might be easier - Or to join the Esvulari? This last might be the hardest path of all, since as I understand it the Esvulari assign roles by inheritance and if you're not born into the ethnic group it may be cold day in hell before they instruct you. Yes I know, this is Runequest, there is a variety of hells, and you can heroquest to them.

Now that makes sense to me. it's not part of the LM initiation, it's something taught "upon" initiation, that is as an option after initiation you can register for Sorcery 101 but LM initiation is a prerequisite and there is an INT test for the class (or maybe those with INT<13 just flunk the course and are steered to another field of study.) All this usually happens in the pre-game character generation background, the five years between coming of age and entering play at age 21. So for those of us GMs running Six Seasons in Sartar like campaigns and starting with 16 year old adventurers, our players have to take sorcery 101 during play. In this case the adventurer is about age 19 or 20, and - to draw a simile with the Real World - has been pursuing one academic program (spirit magic etc.) and this desire to start sorcery is like deciding to change your college major from pre-med to engineering; He is going to have to take a whole new set of low level classes. OK, that's a good simile to use in talking to the player. Now how about those actions and mechanics?

Speaking of that +30%, what is the base chance ? I don't see any reference for it. Because of the "bonus" sentence I infer that it is a chance, not a sure thing. Aha! it is on page 384 of RQiG; INT+POW roll on D100, augmentable, success involves sacrificing 1 POW, and this implies that for my player to learn basic sorcery he needs to spend a minimum of two seasons studying it: one for the rune and one for the technique, because there is only one attempt per season. That's my answer. ;And it is unlike a cult initiation ritual in that regard, since as I understand it the chance to be accepted for cult initiation is a pre initiation interview and Divination thing, while the actual cult initiation ritual is a sure thing. At least unless the GM chooses to roleplay it and the player somehow blows it.

How exactly, in game mechanics and character action terms, does a character master a rune, for sorcery purposes? How does that character master a new technique? RQiG p.384 does have a paragraph on his, which says there is an INT threshold and then there is an INT+POW roll, augmentable, to ‘achieve intellectual union”. Then sacrifice 1 POW. These attempts can be made at a rate of one per season. But can the character just make that roll at the end of every season no matter that he has no instructor nor book on this, nor has he devoted any specific share of his time to researching it? Does it make any difference that he is a Lhankor Mhy initiate, or by profession a Philosopher, or an Aeolian, or on the other extreme can he be an Orlanth lay member who has spent his season herding sheep and looking at the stars at night and is illiterate, or a slave hoeing corn on a Lunar plantation? Same INT+POW roll in all cases? This is a live question because in one of my campaigns a Lhankor Mhy initiate has expressed interest in learning sorcery. IAW RQiG p.389 every Lhankor Mhy initiate is taught to master the Truth rune and the Command technique “upon” initiation, (not as part of it?) so we can start with the assumption that he mastered these even though right now he doesn’t know boo about sorcery. But what if he wants to master a second rune and / or a second technique? I am pretty certain that this has nothing to do with having a rune affinity. You can’t argue that a very high rune affinity might mean mastery because RQiG p.381 says “A sorceror’s understanding of a rune is not based on their affinity with that rune, nor is it a skill.” And RQiG p.383 says that sorcery techniques are also not-skills. Pp.117-118 of the new Runequest Weapons and Equipment book only explain costs of learning a sorcery spell, and do not enlighten me much about the process of mastering a rune. It does say that “ A mentor can also reduce the amount of time spent attempting to learn a Rune. A sorcerous mentor with a proper library provides a bonus of +30% to a ritual for learning a Rune or… “ but there is no indication of what that base time or cost is, that the 30% bonus would be applied to, or how long such a ritual might take. It appears to me that the process under the “rune magic training” section (RQ W&E p.117) for learning a new rune is only for learning a new rune affinity, which starts at 0% and gives a gain of about 2% per season. This is not the same as gaining mastery of a rune which is needed in sorcery. Mastery of runes and of techniques is explained as a yes-no thing, not a skill to be learned in increments.

Yes indeed. That makes Horse Trainer a livable occupation. Even if that's training time doing it one horse at a time - then eight horses per season can be trained to the "riding" standard and price.

Congratulations on exceeding sales projections. It's a good problem to have.

Very nice artwork. Nice document on Malkionism.

Reasonable point. Some of those are at or near the one year mark. But yes, Black Spear is one to look at.

The difference is that you have an indication of how much light there is at the end of the tunnel.

No, just a different way of looking at the data. We have a natural experiment here, two different states, hard copy available = yes and =no. When you add hard copy availability what happens? Now we know. It's not the first time that a change in a product's features made a difference.

Well it may not be MGF for that particular player, but for the rest of the party it may be a great exciting quest. For the player this may be an important episode of character development: Ideally he or she would be a little less cocky next time around. Perhaps a return to the master shaman for some training after the exorcism? If you want to speed things up a little the possessing scorpion man ghost may come and find THEM. Note that it may be a little disoriented in the new body, perhaps will try to sting with its non existent tail. It ought not to have the PC's skills - and you can define what the scorpion ghost's skills were. And the episode will underline the high-stakes nature of spirit combat for future adventures.

Congratulations to Andrew Logan Montgomery.

So when the print version is available the median of our three data points shows about 2:1 print vs. PDF sales. This indicates to me that print is the preferred medium for the usual Runequester. Not to deny that PDF can fit on your phone or tablet, can be printed out if you want to use the ink and then bind it, and is cheaper and price makes a difference. Nevertheless given all those conditions, 2:1 preference for hard copy.

A rough guide to Glamour, Six Seasons in Sartar, and Tales of the Sun County Militia, please. Those have large numbers of sales, the top 3 of hardcovers as far as I can see, so you'll be looking at the largest samples available.

It would be very Bronze Age for great kings to invest in very-long-distance trade as financiers, whether as lenders or as shareholders or as principals for whom the merchants work. Also to support trade by suppressing banditry in his own territory, and by suppressing neighbors if they rob his merchants too much. I am not claiming those are canon for Glorantha. But they might provide someone with a starting hook for a campaign. Has anyone fleshed out Pamaltela? If not trade to Pamaltela then to the West. It would also be very Bronze Age for great kings to make a profit out of enslaving folks they conquer. This would seem to be canon for the Lunars, at least. Not for the prince of Sartar? Well the princes of Sartar seem to have occasionally granted that privilege to others in return for service, even if they didn't exercise it directly: See King Tarkalor Trollkiller.

Nick, You wrote, " On average, print sales make up 32% of total sales for those books with a print-on-demand edition. ". Is that 32% of all sales from day one? If so, what percentage of sales after going into hard copy, have been hard copy? I'd think that statistic would be illuminating as to customer preference.

Yes it does. But i have never trained a horse. They do have a reputation as stupid animals. So do cattle - but people want their horses to do more complex things, so for all i know it may take that long. Maybe we should research horse training some more: for instance, This person in the RW is selling horse training, https://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/horsetraining-timeframe.htm and the 21st century round world cost is $1,000 a month. And this person does not reveal how many horses he or she can train at the same time. He claims " with four months of training, the horse will be working pretty darn good and he’ll have a good foundation on him but he sure won’t be solid or ready to compete in a reining or cutting horse class. To have a horse ready for tough competition, usually takes 12 to 16 months or more." So that's four months for, essentially, a riding horse. Now if you want a working (cow herding) horse, "It takes about three months on cattle to get an idea of the horse’s aptitude as a cutting or cow horse. It takes six to eight months to know if he’s a definite cutting prospect. With most horses, six to eight months on cattle is enough for them to do a decent job at team penning, sorting and ranch cutting." OK, that's a sales talk from someone who is a pro horse trainer. NOT a cavalry horse trainer, not a trainer of Lippizans. But it does indicate the step from riding horse to cow horse is about a two to one ratio of time. Is a cow horse's job as complex as a cavalry horse's? I don't know. i do know they train for different skills: I've met a fair number of American Civil War reenactors who do cavalry, and I know they have to train their horses not to throw the rider and gallop away when the cannon and muskets begin to shoot, also when the rider fires a pistol. Also train them to maneuver together in line abreast. I never asked how long that takes, and I am doubtful of how that relates to Bronze Age battle, which would be much quieter. i do know that most don't train their horse to stand still while the rider 'takes a hit', therefore the low realism of ACW cav reenacting in which the cav hardly ever take hits. But I judge that the reenactors are NOT training their horses full time: They are normal people who have day jobs. Anyway, this would indicate that the training time for a riding horse is more like 4-6 months, and for a cavalry horse is about another 8 - 12 months. For a warhorse - a Lippizaner ???? do we have anyone from Austria on line who could research it locally? I thought not. So I'll just have to rely on the wikipedia article - which says that starting with an already- trained riding horse (after 'the first year of training"),, Campaign school, Campagneschule or Campagne, is where the horse learns collection and balance through all gaits, turns, and maneuvers. The horse learns to shorten and lengthen his stride and perform lateral movements to the side, and is introduced to the more complex double bridle. This is the longest training phase and may take several years.[19] High-school dressage, the haute école or Hohe Schule, includes riding the horse with greater collection with increased use of the hindquarters, developing increased regularity, skill, and finesse in all natural gaits. In this period, the horse learns the most advanced movements such as the half-pass, counter-canter, flying change, pirouette, passage, and piaffe. This is also when the horse may be taught the "airs above the ground." This level emphasizes performance with a high degree of perfection.[ Hm. "Several years" before the horse even starts to learn dressage, the warhorse activities. "

then if one person can train five horses at one time, Then if a riding horse must be trained 5 years and sells for 75L, then with a cost of 40L@ the trainer of five horses is only gaining 125L over 5 years = 25 L a year. That is still a poor income. Still assuming that the horse doesn't have to be fed - If training five warhorses (the step above cavalry mount) for ten years, standard price for the war-trained Daron is 225L, cost is still 40L@, that's a gain of 925L over 10 years, or 92.5L a year. This is a good Free income, suitable for a skilled crafter.

Suggestion: Play "theater of the mind" just as many people do face to face. You don't need the roll20 graphics nor do you need an electronic die roller. I am having fun GM'ing on Zoom.

That gives us a handle on the horse trainer part of the thread. But can a trainer train more than one horse at the same time? If not simultaneously, then does a trainer work the horse all day, or do one in the morning and one in the afternoon? If we assume a ratio of one trainer per horse: Then if a riding horse must be trained 5 years and sells for 75L, then with a cost of 40L the trainer is only gaining 25L over 5 years = 5 L a year. So unless several can be trained at once it makes no sense to be a trainer of riding horses, the income is only 5L per horse per year. And that assumes that the horse doesn't have to be fed - though in the RW there is a saying "eats like a horse". If training a warhorse (the step above cavalry mount) , standard price for the war-trained Daron is 225L, cost is still 40L, that's a gain of 185L over 10 years, or 18.5L a year. (Training 13 years that's 14.2L a year )That is still not a Free standard of living unless more than one warhorse can be trained at a time. So under those training time assumptions, the Runequest equine economy breaks down. What different assumptions can we make to make horse training a practical occupation?

Since the original question is " how many horses would you reckon it would take to make the 80 Lunars a year ", the amount of land is moot - it's the size of the horse herd that matters. Given the breeding numbers Darius West provided, (though you should also figure lifespan in there when you use the doubling time) the only remaining variables are the breed and the training status of the newly bred horses: 40L for "meat", 75L for a Daron trained to ride, 150L for the same Daron trained as a cavalry mount, 225 trained as a war horse. (RQiG p.410) I would separate the value of the hide in producing horses from the value of the trainer's work training them, and calculate the hide using "meat" value: 40L per horse. So to get 80L profit per year, you need to breed and sell at least 2 horses a year - and often 3, in order to replace your breeding stock as it ages. Make that a constant 3 per year since in a world where children don't necessarily survive to maturity neither will all horses. Assuming a 20% fertility rate, if you are raising Darons then you need 3x5 = 15 mares and one stallion. If you are raising Goldeneyes, you only need 5 mares and one stallion to produce one colt a year and you will still make an above-average income from your hide of horses. Now there is an implied next step: If someone will tell us how long it takes to train a horse as a riding horse, a cav mount etc. we can tell how many horses a year a horse trainer will train to make a Free standard of living. Interestingly, "horse trainer' is not among the occupation listed in RQiG.

Party city ? Can't be, they have to work some time to achieve their high staddard of living and exports.