Tizun Thane Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 As I said in another post, the genealogy tree of Britanny in Book of SIres (p67) is good, but incomplete. So I tried to fit the duke Hoel into it. According to the GPC, his sigil is ermine plain like the historical dukes of Britanny. So it makes sense to add Hoel to the family and to link him to Arthur in some way, like in the legends. I tried very hard to respect the chronology in BoS or GPC, so I was forced to tweak the sources. So here is my attempt: Hoel-budec.pdf The war in 536/537 between two brothers is an interesting twist to be sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 This tree will be extended into the Arthurian period in future books (that I worked on). It only illustrates some of the members of the family. Hoel is indeed a grandson of Budec, but was a youth when his grandfather died (his father is also named Hoel, but died fighting for Ambrosius), and Idres 'took him under his protection'... Meliau has a brother and a brother-in-law, Hoel's uncles, who also claim slices of Brittany. Hoel has sons named Ruvalen and Keyhidins, as well as Isolt of the White Hands. He is on his second marriage by the 530s, to the duchess who slanders Graelant. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizun Thane Posted November 20, 2019 Author Share Posted November 20, 2019 It sounds very promising! Thank you. Your erudition is always welcome. 13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: Hoel is indeed a grandson of Budec, In all the sources I readed, Hoel is a son of Budec/Budic/Dubric, not a grandson, but it didn't match up with the KAP chronology. 17 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: Graelant. Like Graelent, in the lai of Marie de France? It's a queen how slanders him, but yeah, a duchess in Britanny made more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said: It sounds very promising! Thank you. Your erudition is always welcome. In all the sources I readed, Hoel is a son of Budec/Budic/Dubric, not a grandson, but it didn't match up with the KAP chronology. Like Graelent, in the lai of Marie de France? It's a queen how slanders him, but yeah, a duchess in Britanny made more sense. Budec has a son Hoel 'the elder' in Breton pseudo-history, who _also_ has a son Hoel the Young. In the chronology of the Breton chronicles, Budec is a hale man in the 460s, the elder Hoel fights for Arthur in the 510s and the younger rules in the 540s. But because that chronology places Camlann in the 530s, we are looking at something that wouldn't work in KAP. However it is the _younger Hoel_ who is the father of Isolt of the White Hands and whom Tristram serves, so we're still good. Originally Tristram was a post-Arthurian hero, and Mark came after Constantine. People wanted a crossover and so Tristram joined the Round Table and we ended up with both Cador (corrupted into Yder) and Mark as kings of Cornwall at the same time. But to keep the general flow of Breton saints and battles orderly I simply made the younger Hoel the one who also allied with Arthur. Hoel is frequently called King of Brittany as well as duke or count. He was probably a king in Breton and some lesser title in Latin and Frankish - If he existed, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Tizun Thane said: It sounds very promising! Thank you. Your erudition is always welcome. In all the sources I readed, Hoel is a son of Budec/Budic/Dubric, not a grandson, but it didn't match up with the KAP chronology. A lot of names are used by multiple characters, and a lot of relationships change between sources. If you check out the Arthrian name dictionary there is a bit on this, with four different Hoels, and a mention of a Welsh source naming him as the son of Emhyr. If he was Budec's son he would be pretty pretty old by the time Arthur becomes king. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizun Thane Posted November 20, 2019 Author Share Posted November 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: If he was Budec's son he would be pretty pretty old by the time Arthur becomes king. I agree. That's why I made him a grandson of Budec in my game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said: I agree. That's why I made him a grandson of Budec in my game Yeah, that's also touches upon something that jeffjerwin mentions in passing, th etimeline. Generally there are two different timelines that historians use to try and piece events together and about a 15-25 year difference in where some events are placed. THis is why the dates for things like Germanus' visit to Brtian is linked to multiple dates, as are many of the events of St. Patrick. This can greatly affect the psudo-historical timeline of Pendragon. A 20 year shift makes a big difference in the age of a character and determines if certain characters are contemporaries or not, or changes their relative ages. or if one is older than the other. For instance there are some sources that make Aurelius about the same age as Vortigern and a rival, and other that have him a boy during the famous Vortigern Tower incident (Aurelius is later replaced/merged into Merlin). Also, therre is some conflcit over how long Uther reigned before his death, and how long before Arthur took over. So there are a lot of characters who will end up a generation or too old or too young, and need to be time-shifted to fit the KAP timeline. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: A lot of names are used by multiple characters, and a lot of relationships change between sources. If you check out the Arthrian name dictionary there is a bit on this, with four different Hoels, and a mention of a Welsh source naming him as the son of Emhyr. If he was Budec's son he would be pretty pretty old by the time Arthur becomes king. Emhyr is one of the Welsh names for Budec, and comes from a word for 'emperor' = emhyr Llydaw = emperor of the Bretons. Budec appears separately as Bwydeg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qizilbashwoman Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: Emhyr is one of the Welsh names for Budec, and comes from a word for 'emperor' = emhyr Llydaw = emperor of the Bretons. Budec appears separately as Bwydeg. FYI llydaw is from the Common Brittonic term litawya that means "continent", and is Latinised as Litavia. It appears as Litavia in some translations, in fact. Emhyr is just a Latin loanword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said: FYI llydaw is from the Common Brittonic term litawya that means "continent", and is Latinised as Litavia. It appears as Litavia in some translations, in fact. Emhyr is just a Latin loanword. Yes, or 'broad lands'. It's cognate to the Irish Letha. It seems to have been the Insular Celts' name for everything south of the Channel, but Brittany/Armorica is the most relevant bit to most of these peoples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizun Thane Posted September 2, 2020 Author Share Posted September 2, 2020 On 11/20/2019 at 3:11 PM, jeffjerwin said: This tree will be extended into the Arthurian period in future books (that I worked on). Do you still work on this future Book about Britanny ? It looks very promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted September 14, 2020 Share Posted September 14, 2020 On 9/2/2020 at 4:27 AM, Tizun Thane said: Do you still work on this future Book about Britanny ? It looks very promising. Yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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