how to become a sartarite iron smith and create an iron sword

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: what's the difference between what the Humakti know of iron, and what Lhankor Mhy knows of it? I presume there are at least a couple of LM smiths out there...

A: Practice, mostly. While there are Sword Sages, men and women whose swords are as sharp as their quills, most LM initiates are less familiar with what makes a sword good. They can read about balance, and draw diagrams, but in the end much of that will remain academic.

Reading material and the floating sparks of a smithy's fire aren't natural cohabitants... reading a metalworking song yourself while pounding away on a piece of metal probably doesn't work. Having an assistent read the words aloud for you to repeat might be an option.

But then, a smith's work"song" may be sung as the pattern of the hammer beats, and written work-songs are a mixture of rhythmic patterning and some useful info to memorize. Real World smiths have a "hammer language" for communication between master and wielder(s) of the sledge hammer at the anvil.

[Jeff]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: what's the difference between what the Humakti know of iron, and what Lhankor Mhy knows of it? I presume there are at least a couple of LM smiths out there...

The Humakti know the secret of working iron - but not as an intellectual thing - as a craft, a process, a tangible metaphor. LM knows it like they know anything - something written down in a book. The number of LM smiths is vanishingly small (Craft is not a Sage Skill, nor something they get from their associates) - the number of LM ironsmiths in all of Glorantha is a tiny fraction of that.

[Shiningbrow]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A: Practice

Let me clarify. Do they actually have basically the same knowledge about the same thing?

Or are they different secrets?

It was mentioned previously that LM would use Mineral Lore (or perhaps a more specific Metallurgy Lore) and/or Alchemy. Humakt and Gustbran just use their smithing skills. So, if an initiate of one joined the other, would they actually learn something new, and thus be pretty awesome? Or basically just have a better understanding of what they already know?

[Shiningbrow]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The number of LM smiths is vanishingly small (Craft is not a Sage Skill, nor something they get from their associates) - the number of LM ironsmiths in all of Glorantha is a tiny fraction of that.

I have no doubt about that!!! Possibly a number you could count on one finger.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Let me clarify. Do they actually have basically the same knowledge about the same thing?

Or are they different secrets?

It was mentioned previously that LM would use Mineral Lore (or perhaps a more specific Metallurgy Lore) and/or Alchemy. Humakt and Gustbran just use their smithing skills. So, if an initiate of one joined the other, would they actually learn something new, and thus be pretty awesome? Or basically just have a better understanding of what they already know?

I'd trust the practical knowledge of Gustbran or Humakt over the theoretical knowledge of LM if my life depended on it. LM might be able to recite lots of stuff about the history of iron-making, who stole iron from the dwarves, etc. But Humakt knows how to make a sword.

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'd trust the practical knowledge of Gustbran or Humakt over the theoretical knowledge of LM if my life depended on it. LM might be able to recite lots of stuff about the history of iron-making, who stole iron from the dwarves, etc. But Humakt knows how to make a sword.

So, you're saying it's two (quite) different pieces of knowledge... 

What about Alchemists? Perhaps swords and armour aren't its only use??? Or they have another way to manipulate the metal? (Or clean it of impurities, if we're considering it to be similar to RW iron).

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Let me clarify. Do they actually have basically the same knowledge about the same thing?

Or are they different secrets?

It was mentioned previously that LM would use Mineral Lore (or perhaps a more specific Metallurgy Lore) and/or Alchemy. Humakt and Gustbran just use their smithing skills. So, if an initiate of one joined the other, would they actually learn something new, and thus be pretty awesome? Or basically just have a better understanding of what they already know?

If you ask the LM sage selling that information, the answer would be an unmitigated yes, it would be something new and thus pretty awesome.

A less intellectual-minded practitioner might regard much of that lore as window-dressing, but he might use certain hints useful for heroquesting.

 

Lhankor Mhy research might find new ways to reduce spoilage aka scale. But then, this is really Gustbran's terrain.

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I'd trust the practical knowledge of Gustbran or Humakt over the theoretical knowledge of LM if my life depended on it. LM might be able to recite lots of stuff about the history of iron-making, who stole iron from the dwarves, etc. But Humakt knows how to make a sword.

Humakt knows how to be a sword, and how to become one. To make a sword, you have to go for that obscure subcult. Which is Humakt, of course, but just one aspect, and it has to work in concert with Gustbran. No fire, no iron sword.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're saying it's two (quite) different pieces of knowledge... 

What about Alchemists? Perhaps swords and armour aren't its only use??? Or they have another way to manipulate the metal? (Or clean it of impurities, if we're considering it to be similar to RW iron).

Humakt doesn't know any peaceful use for iron. For that matter, nor does Mostal.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Humakt doesn't know any peaceful use for iron. For that matter, nor does Mostal.

Mostal wasn't present at the creation of the iron crucible, only the full array of the eight castes of the Mostali he had made. Iron was made when the World Machine had become dysfunctional, without direct input of the World Machine.

The combined eight castes of the True Mostali created the Iron Mostali, a weaker copy of themselves, and the only ones who know how to work iron, and how to wield it in conflicts. They may have been able to create the metal, possibly at the price of Stone's life.

Iron Mostali never were True Mostali, but they still are more magical than Clay Mostali of the iron caste. That means that Iron Mostali are already a lot more single-minded than True Mostali like Isidilian or Angarko. They weren't built for peace.

[Shiningbrow]

Iron-ic (🤣🤣🤣) that the repairers of the World Machine don't understand what tools and cogs and gears are....

[jps]

Echanting iron is not a mere technique like in the modern days turning iron into steel, t’s a magical prowess, jealously guarded by the Mostalli. A Satarite won’t possess it but will have to go unto a quest to search for someone who does. Piku Gastapakis, from Apple Lane, was hiding his ability of him to turn iron into enchanted iron (steel) because he was afraid of Mostali’s reprisals . What I’m trying to say, it’s not just a skill you have to spend points into, it’s more Conan’ Secret of steel.

[Shiningbrow]

@Joerg what sort of stats are you giving to Godsbone Bronze???  And what sort of prices to go with it?

[Joerg]

To be honest, I haven't thought of this in monetary manner.

As to stats, how do you price increased hit points or the ability to create lighter versions of weapons or pieces of armor than you would get from casting them? Because that's basically what I see as the advantages of having a bonesmith work with godsbones rather than with alloyed cast bronze.

Now lighter equipment for the same hit points doesn't work for blades which don't have that fine grading, but might for helmets or cuirasses.

More hit points are easy to implement. The more, the more expensive, I guess. 

[Shiningbrow]

But you could have a blade (Or armour, shield) the same weight as usual with more hit points.

You're not changing AP? Only HP?

Pricing - depends firstly on how easy it is to source the raw materials. Secondly how easy it is to work. And thirdly the improvement. The last... 10%? 25% 50%. Then adjust nicely! (I.e., not merely 1 for 1, but maybe 1.5 for 1)

 

ETA: are you thinking bone-smithing needs to be a different skill to red-smithing?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Joerg]

Yes, AP may or would go up, too. Every "material property" expressed in a game value context can be improved.

 

I don't really like defining yet another thing that player characters cannot do, aka introducing another skill, but I agree that working godsbone should be harder than normal redsmithing. In a way this is a secret knowledge, something that could be expressed as sorcery (something you know), much like alchemy.

Should it be an independent skill? Could it be learned without redsmithing?

Looking at Gadblad, the smith of the trolls, yes, bonesmithing can be applied without redsmithing or flame control, at least for lead. But then, this could simply be a replacement skill, darksmithing rather than redsmithing.

Judging from the Gadblad precedence, you need to have an understanding of the rune of the metal that you are working. RQG offers percentile scores in those runes. These scores are also used in the Enchant Metal spells.

So possibly the bonesmith needs to have undergone some quest to gain the knowledge (acquire the sorcerous element or death rune), but then use the lower of his personal score in that element (or Death) and his smithing ability in his attempts to work godsbone. Or maybe working godsbone only works when inspired by that element.

Maybe there is a ritual inducing a Hammer Trance. Spending a few rune points for creating a lasting effect in an object should be an appropriate cost.

The number of successful crafting rolls may depend on the size (i.e. number) of the pieces of Godsbone the smith uses in the project, plus one for every two or three failures, and a fumble indicates that the godsbone property got lost in the process. Working from a single large piece of godsbone is a lot easier than having to weld smaller pieces together, first.

A smith might take extra rolls to retain more durability from the material, in which case the pieces of godsbone would have to be assigned some potency, with the potency defining the upper limit of extra features normal success can retain in the finished piece.

 

All of this is just shooting ideas into the dark, using existing concepts in the game. Feel free to expand, change, or disregard.