Conspicuous by its absence: Egypt

[Darius West]

On 3/23/2020 at 8:18 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yet, aside from merely the title of "Pharaoh", not retconned away, there is not really any input from that most long-lived of ancient civilizations: Egypt. 

The logical place for an Egypt-like place is in Prax on the Zola Fel river.  It is distinctly likely that during God Time the society of the region was Egypt-like all across Prax and the Wastes.  Perhaps no pyramids per-se (unless you count Tada's High Tumulus), but plenty of big statues and unusual ruins.  Consider that Gorilla City may have been effectively a settlement worshiping Babi (Egyptian god of Baboons, not the "how is babi formed" meme).  In many ways the Praxians are now nomads living in the ruins of those civilizations, in much the same way that Bedouins occupied the ruins of Egypt and brought their way of life to the region after the Byzantine/Roman occupation of the area.  In Glorantha we have the Lunar Empire acting as the occupation, but at the limit of its expansion and logistical capabilities.  I am seeing parallels here.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Darius West

[Joerg]

Genert's Garden was not a grain-growing agricultural society The land was a lush savannah with garden-like places, of which the oases are a weak reflection. I doubt that the Tada-Shi had plows.

The fruits of the oases appear to be legumes and fruits and nuts from bushes and trees. Maybe some pseudo-cereals from flowering plants, like e.g, buckwheat.

Any harvest looking like plains grass will likely have been used as pasture by whatever visiting nomad clan took temporary possession of the oasis.

 

Tada was the God-King of Genert's Garden, a figure pretty similar to Pamalt in the Agimori myths. There would have been temple cities in Tada's realm, perhaps with the monkeys being one of the leading civilizations. We know the remnants of Monkey and Tada-shi architecture - step pyramids like Pimper's Block.

If I had to suggest a terrestrial culture for the Tada-shi, I might be tending towards the Maya. With a much easier access to harvest and fertile earth than the elaborate measures the Maya took to use their sub-optimal lands. Probably without maize, but given that some of the original allies of Genert were the Elf Lords (mentioned as combatants in the Eternal Battle), not impossible - HonEel brought a forgotten cereal back, and Earthfall caused a lot of deities and their associated beasts and plants and cultures to be totally or almost forgotten.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Joerg

[Sir_Godspeed]

23 hours ago, Exubae said:

Does Glorantha need overtly real world cultures, I seem to spent more time trying to pull Kralorela away from the Chinese sterotypes. And having Gloranthan Egypt just sounds a step backward... Nice to have elements, but not wholesale import of RW cultures.

 

I'm not sure if you read more than the opening post, but I think the issue was discussed well and broadly answered through various responses.

[davecake]

On 3/24/2020 at 5:44 AM, M Helsdon said:

There may not be a great river surrounded by desert, but in many ways, Fonrit is a bit Egyptian.

I think Fonrit sees itself more or less like Kush to a broader Pamaltelan Egypt, but long after the fall of the New Kingdom. The Agimori of Fonrit see themselves as the true heirs to the great ancient Doraddi civilisation of Tishamto to the South (only they have kept its civilization alive thanks to its rediscovery by the Glorious ones, none of this Doraddi 'progress backwards' stuff), and see themselves as sort of worshipping the same deities in a new, better, way, a natural continuation. 

They are, of course, mostly wrong about almost all of that. Garangordos justified conquest of the Vendang by claiming he was restoring the ancient Pamalt ruling magic, with Glorious Ones recreating Pamalts Necklace, but the Agimori of Fonrit are mostly descended from the Gendara people. Garangordos ignores the whole Thinobutu myth cycle in favour of associating himself with Pamalt and his defeat of Chaos with the Firefall, and rulership of the Earth (rather than the Thinobutu myth cycle of getting kicked around by the sea and Chaos, and continually having to migrate away due to other powers). And Fonrit was never part of Tishamto, what Agimori were there were probably mostly subjects of the Artmali then the Vadeli. 

 Of course, the Veldang of Fonrit see it differently - they see themselves as the heirs to the real Empire, the Artmali Empire. They first freed Fonrit from the elves, and troublesome barbarians from the North killed Artmal, then they got conquered by the Vadeli, and the Agimori were never anything but subject peoples until Garagordos came. Their version of history is probably a vast oversimplication, if not an outright lie too - but they too still see Fonrit as originally a branch of the great ancient Empire to the South, they just have a different idea whose empire it was. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

I think Fonrit sees itself more or less like Kush to a broader Pamaltelan Egypt, but long after the fall of the New Kingdom. The Agimori of Fonrit see themselves as the true heirs to the great ancient Doraddi civilisation of Tishamto to the South (only they have kept its civilization alive thanks to its rediscovery by the Glorious ones, none of this Doraddi 'progress backwards' stuff), and see themselves as sort of worshipping the same deities in a new, better, way, a natural continuation. 

The Barueli river and Laskal had cities before the Garangordites went to awaken Ompalam. Yes, the lands north of the Fense did not join that weird backward evolution trend of the Veldt.

There is even a city in Laskal that has men-and-a-half.

I am not quite sure what to make of the Ia Rathwi (Fortress People) and the (slave-holding) Exigers south of Laskal, described for Fonrit. They appear to be Doraddi similar to those of Laskal.

8 hours ago, davecake said:

They are, of course, mostly wrong about almost all of that. Garangordos justified conquest of the Vendang by claiming he was restoring the ancient Pamalt ruling magic, with Glorious Ones recreating Pamalts Necklace, but the Agimori of Fonrit are mostly descended from the Gendara people.

I don't think so. The Thinokans are clearly outrigger people, but they are phenotypically different from the master lineages. Same for the Kumankans, Kimotans, Masloi, and the lost Loral population. The Outrigger people descended from Thinobutu are named Agimori, but are a different sub-type.

That "inaccuracy" leaves us without information whether the people of Teleos have forgotten that they followed Pamalt north to fight Vovisibor, or whether they have forgotten that they fled from Thinobutu.

They used to be pirates who harassed the Middle Sea Empire, but we don't know anything about the type of ships or boats they used.

As far as I can make out, the people of the Barueli river valley and Banamba are of Doraddi origin, followers of Pamalt, or a Pamaltelan hero who led them beyond the Fense to fight Vovisibor or his leftover minions (such as the Vadeli). I remember discussing one such hero out of Tishamto.

8 hours ago, davecake said:

Garangordos ignores the whole Thinobutu myth cycle in favour of associating himself with Pamalt and his defeat of Chaos with the Firefall, and rulership of the Earth (rather than the Thinobutu myth cycle of getting kicked around by the sea and Chaos, and continually having to migrate away due to other powers). And Fonrit was never part of Tishamto, what Agimori were there were probably mostly subjects of the Artmali then the Vadeli. 

The only parts of Fonrit that were inhabited by descendants of the Doraddi are the Barueli river valley and Banamba. Afadjann, Kareeshtu, Tarahorn were Artmali lands before the Garangordites invaded.

The Garangordites were so successful that they even enslaved their own people in Banamba and Barueli. They failed to do so with the Exigers, who appear to be a collection of strange martial cults in their mountain fastnesses - almost like various kung fu or sword art sects in China, in a steady state of conflict to hone their respective special combat modes.

 

8 hours ago, davecake said:

 Of course, the Veldang of Fonrit see it differently - they see themselves as the heirs to the real Empire, the Artmali Empire. They first freed Fonrit from the elves, and troublesome barbarians from the North killed Artmal, then they got conquered by the Vadeli, and the Agimori were never anything but subject peoples until Garagordos came. Their version of history is probably a vast oversimplication, if not an outright lie too - but they too still see Fonrit as originally a branch of the great ancient Empire to the South, they just have a different idea whose empire it was. 

The Fonritian branch of the Artmali Empire appears to have been an expansion, at a time when the Vadeli of Chir and Poto may have been under pressure by the Brithini (prior to the Nidan uprising which turned the tables and established Endernef as the Churkenos Sea dried up when the Neliomi current had been tapped of all its energy by Brithini and Vadeli alike?).

The extent of the Seas south of the Spike in the Gods Age is something that the God Learner maps don't seem to have gotten right. While I find it believable that the Churkenos Sea never cut through eastwards to make contact with the Sshorg seas, there is the current which ultimately sank Thinobutu and which established the Marthino Sea. The positions of Ulrana etc. that far from the modern coast of Pamaltela doesn't make any sense if you look at the history of the Thinokans, and doesn't explain the Kumankans at all.

 

But back to Tishamto - how much like Egypt would those Doraddi cities have been?

We have little to no idea how centralized the rulership was in urban Doraddi society. Was there a demigod Emperor like the Artmali had? Were there many temple cities, each with their own ruler (more like the Mesopotamian model)? Were there any palaces or other outstanding buildings, or were their cities as strangely egalitarian as the Mohenjo Daro/Harappa culture appears to have been?