"Other" Weapon Skills: am I doing it right?

[Luca Cherstich]

It's about weapons for which a PK does not have a skill value.

I do not want to over-change the basic rules in KAP 5.2, but this is cleary a "void" in the rules.

OK, I know it: this has been asked and discussed repeatedly in the history of KAP and everybody has his own house rules about it....therefore, sorry if I bother resurecting something which has been so often discussed.

Before posting this thread, I went through all this forums and the whole Nocturnal Media Forum archives and found so many suggestions, homebrew options, etc.

I'm frankly lost among the so many, possible options.

Therefore, I write this post, since I'm just trying to understand the possible consequences of any choice that I make.

 

My premises:

- I want to keep on using basic KAP 5.2 rules, so that the stats of existing PCs are not changed.

- I also want to keep the basic skill values of the different cultures in BK&L (on the assumption that they are "somehow" balanced ... at least in theory).

- I'm sceptic about using "default" values for weapon skills (since if based on a skill they favour one-skill over-specialization or, if based upon a stat, they may give too high basic values compared to basic stats).

- I like the Weapon Groups kinds of skills...but not for KAP, since it may mean to change the stats of all PKs.

 

Consequently, I'm thinking about doing the following:

1)  Make all the PCs to roll some dice for the weapon skill that they do not have (2d6 for melee, 1d6 for ranged) = the results will be their basic value

2) In alternative make the above-suggested rolls during the character creation of all the future  PKs for ALL weapon skills (including Sword, Spear Expertise & Dagger or whatever is given for the specific culture) and, if results are lower than "normal" basic values given for the specific culture, I'll keep the basic values (I know: everybody will be more skillfull with daggers!).

3) I've seen quite often the suggestion of allowing weapon skill to cost 1/2 cost until they get to "10"....what are the advantages of this system?

 

Thank you  in advance!

 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Luca Cherstich

[Al.]

This might not be a direct answer or solution to your question; but I liked it the first time I met it in a con game.

Limit the weapon skills in play to those listed on the character sheet:

'Sword' covers all weapons used in melee

'Lance' covers all weapons used from horseback

'Dagger' covers all weapons used hand-to-hand, knee-to-groin, up-close and personal

'Spear' covers all weapons used in formation and shieldwall

 

Of course any player who wants their character to be all unchivalrous will also need 'Bow' but that's only one additional skill to add

[fulk]

My feeling is that weapon skills for knights should all just start at 10.  Think of it as general training. Mace 10 seems reasonable. Remember that dropping from Sword 15 to Mace 10 is a pretty big drop.  Even if it makes buying up weapon skills to 15 fairly easy, those are points that could have been used elsewhere. 

I just wouldn't stress over complicated details in a game that has a fairly simple combat system.

 

NT

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

By RAW any weapon skill a character doesn't possess starts off at 0.

Also by RAW a character who ends up wielding a weapon that they lack skill in can opt to fight defensively, make an all-out attack, or even attempt to become inspired to gain some sort of skill. All with various restrictions and complications.

That said, something like DEX/4 would be similar to what RQ does, and Morien's idea of starting combat skills off at DEX/2 has merit.

 

[Morien]

3 hours ago, fulk said:

My feeling is that weapon skills for knights should all just start at 10. 

That's what we are doing in our current campaign. Works like a treat, let me tell you. Most people still focus on a single weapon (although if it is a non-sword, then Sword is quickly raised to 15 as a secondary backup, especially since some challenges are sword-only), but it ensures that the knights are not total fumble-fingers if they pick up a mace or a great sword.

Plus, it is very easy to implement, even in mid-campaign.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Morien's idea of starting combat skills off at DEX/2 has merit.

This is probably what I would do if I were to start a new campaign. Go full in on the attribute defaults for all skills and be done with it.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

OK, I got it.

Everybody has its own approach to this and there's not a single, one solution to solve it.

 

Regarding the starting all weapon skills at "10": It seems like a good solution and very easy fix, but it seems somehow to conflict with base values of in BoK&L.

If I create, for example, an Irish Knight from Estregales or a Pict one from Jagent or a Saxon from Berroc, why the "Other weapons" should start at "10" , when most of the "normal weapons skills" are set much lower?

 

Looking just at Uther Period (but at later periods is almost the same, with only minor changes).

Cymric: Dagger 5

Irish: Dagger 3, Spear 5, Lance 5

Pict: Sword 8, Lance 1, Spear 7, Great Spear 8, Dagger 1, Javelin 4, Great Axe 6

Roman: Spear 2, Dagger 5

Saxon: Sword 2, Lance 2, Spear 2, Dagger 1

Aquitanian: Spear 2

 

  

 

[Morien]

37 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

If I create, for example, an Irish Knight from Estregales or a Pict one from Jagent or a Saxon from Berroc, why the "Other weapons" should start at "10" , when most of the "normal weapons skills" are set much lower?

ALL weapons should start at 10. Not just 'other weapons'.

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

OK, I got it.

Everybody has its own approach to this and there's not a single, one solution to solve it.

Well there is but many people houserule it instead.

By RAW, a 0 Combat skill is just a 0, and a character has to rely on inspiration and/ or combat tactics to have an effective skill. THis actually works just fine and makes some sense. Someone unskilled with a an axe doing an "all-out attack", which leaves him vulnerable, sort of makes sense.

7 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

 

Regarding the starting all weapon skills at "10": It seems like a good solution and very easy fix, but it seems somehow to conflict with base values of in BoK&L. 

 

That's why I prefer Morien's idea of DEX/2 instead. It give an typical starting score of 5, which is on par with most starting values, and makes a high DEX somewhat useful for the greater depth and breadth or weapon skills. A Roman PK with DEX 20 can literally pick up any weapon and start with a 10 skill, which greatly speeds up his maxing out any weapon at 15, and could lead to him being very good with lots of weapons, without losing focus on his main combat skills. 

BTW, the original concept also had APP/2 as the default for many Courtly skills, with an eye to make APP and DEX more useful than they are now. But some people strongly objected to the idea so we mostly dropped it. The only reason why we haven't dropped it completely is that is is still one of the good solution to several things, such as the 0 weapon skill problem.

[fulk]

I have nothing against DEX/2.  I've done that too. Nevertheless, is seems low to me.  If you're 15 Sword, I can't see being Mace 5 (assuming DEX 10).  Nevertheless, YPMV.  Whatever you like. 

[Atgxtg]

On 3/29/2020 at 5:59 PM, fulk said:

  If you're 15 Sword, I can't see being Mace 5 (assuming DEX 10).  Nevertheless, YPMV.  Whatever you like. 

I can. The weight and balance are very different, and the weapons wielded in different ways. 

[fulk]

This is an endless argument that is not really worth pursuing here. It comes down to how big a modifier you chose to impose. No one is saying that they are exactly the same (hence not just having 1h weapon & shield as a skill).  I just can't see a fully trained knight being essentially incompetent with other contemporary weapons.  One thing that a lot of historical manuals do show is how the principles of use of one weapon (longsword) are can be applied to another (poleaxe).  But again YPMV.  

[Atgxtg]

31 minutes ago, fulk said:

This is an endless argument that is not really worth pursuing here. It comes down to how big a modifier you chose to impose. No one is saying that they are exactly the same (hence not just having 1h weapon & shield as a skill).  I just can't see a fully trained knight being essentially incompetent with other contemporary weapons.  One thing that a lot of historical manuals do show is how the principles of use of one weapon (longsword) are can be applied to another (poleaxe).  But again YPMV.  

Yes, that is something that is even mentioned back in old RuneQuest. Some aspects of combat are universal and would apply to any weapon. Especially since much of weapon use depends on knowing what the opponent can do with his weapon.  RQ used to have a bunch of similar weapon rules where skill with weapon A typically resulted in half that ability with weapons B, C, and D.

Something like any melee skill defaulting to half any other weapon skill probably works, up to a limit (say the 15 training limit). So that would bump the Sword 15 guy up to 8 with Mace. 

[Morien]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Something like any melee skill defaulting to half any other weapon skill probably works, up to a limit (say the 15 training limit). So that would bump the Sword 15 guy up to 8 with Mace. 

Only problem with that is that it again makes DEX nigh useless as far as weapon skills are concerned. Pretty much all PKs start with a melee weapon skill at 15, so unless your DEX is over 16, your skill default is better than your DEX/2 default.

I'd be more inclined to go for a straight DEX default, max = best weapon skill, in that case. So if you have DEX 20 and Sword 20, congratulations, you have 20 in all melee weapons. Most knights with DEX 10 would just have a default of 10 in all other weapons.

Or to make it a bit more balanced, maybe the average of DEX and Weapon Skill and then -5? So the God of Dex above would have (20+20)/2-5 = 15, and a normal new knight would have (10+15)/2-5 = 8. A barely qualified newbie would have (10+10)/2-5 = 5, and an older veteran knight would have (10+20)/2-5 = 10.

[Atgxtg]

49 minutes ago, Morien said:

Only problem with that is that it again makes DEX nigh useless as far as weapon skills are concerned. Pretty much all PKs start with a melee weapon skill at 15, so unless your DEX is over 16, your skill default is better than your DEX/2 default.

Yup. Although I think the problme is more with DEX (and APP) than with the skill crossover. As we've mentioned previously DEX is a weak stat in KAP.

49 minutes ago, Morien said:

I'd be more inclined to go for a straight DEX default, max = best weapon skill, in that case. So if you have DEX 20 and Sword 20, congratulations, you have 20 in all melee weapons. Most knights with DEX 10 would just have a default of 10 in all other weapons.

Interesting. I'm not sure it that would be a good thing or not. One the one hand it would definitely put DEX up there with SIZ and CON, on the other hand it could completely revamp chargen. I could see a Roman PK starting with DEX 21 after being knighted, and quickly moving into ultra high skill levels. IMO we'd need an official rule for handling ultra high skills at that point, since it would much more common.

49 minutes ago, Morien said:

Or to make it a bit more balanced, maybe the average of DEX and Weapon Skill and then -5? So the God of Dex above would have (20+20)/2-5 = 15, and a normal new knight would have (10+15)/2-5 = 8. A barely qualified newbie would have (10+10)/2-5 = 5, and an older veteran knight would have (10+20)/2-5 = 10.

I think the average but capped at 15 (the training cap) might be simpler and somewhat better. That way even the God of DEX with DEX 30 and Sword 25 would still be capped at 15 in a weapon that he's never used.

[Luca Cherstich]

I've been reading KAP for long time but, compared to you all, I'm just a newbie, since I've started playing it seriously only recently.

However...why are you saying that DEX is a useless stat which needs to be powered?

Dex is used for avoiding knockdown in combat and for many, many actions...am I misunderstanding anything?

Edited April 2, 2020 by Luca Cherstich

[Tizun Thane]

13 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Dex is used for avoiding knockdown in combat and for many, many actions...am I misunderstanding anything?

Yes, it's useful. But many actions with dex suffer a -10 penalty when you are in heavy armor. So many PKs try do avoid them.

Tai is the best. Then Con. Then For. Then Dex. Then App. Don't tell your players

 

[Morien]

47 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Dex is used for avoiding knockdown in combat and for many, many actions...am I misunderstanding anything?

Like Tizun Thane already said, most of the actions where DEX is used are actions that the PKs will avoid like plague, since the -10 to DEX from armor ensures that they will fail. This leaves the avoiding knockdown as the main use for the DEX, but here is the kicker: SIZ is better than DEX for that, too. And most of us know that, so if one is doing the point-buy method (the standard in KAP 5.2), a more typical PK is SIZ 18, DEX 9 than SIZ 9 and DEX 18.

ONLY looking at knockdown, we have these odds:

Damage less than 9: Neither knight suffers knockdown.

Damage 9-17: DEX 18 knight has to roll and has 10% chance of being knocked down. SIZ 18 does not have to roll, so 0% chance of being knocked down. Advantage: SIZ 18.

Damage 18-35: DEX 18 automatically knocked down, since this is double or more his SIZ 9. SIZ 18 gets to roll his DEX 9 and has 55% chance of falling, which is better than 100% chance of falling. Advantage: SIZ 18.

Damage 36 or more: Both automatically knocked down.

As you can see, there is NO damage range in this scenario where DEX 18 is a better build for knockdown than SIZ 18.

If we widen the comparison, SIZ gives HP and DMG, too, both of which are invaluable in combat. Indeed, if the two have, say, STR 11, SIZ 18 has DMG 5d6, which gives about 50% chance of an automatic knockdown on SIZ 9 guy (rendering his DEX 18 useless), while SIZ 9 guy has a puny 3d6 damage, which only has 0.5% chance of even triggering a knockdown roll. Even if the STR is raised to 12 and hence 4d6 damage for SIZ 9, this only gives a 15.9% chance of triggering a knockdown roll on SIZ 18 guy, making that DEX 9 come to play only one sixth of the time. What does DEX bring to the party? The use in climbing, sneaking and such, which have already been noted being something that the PKs avoid like plague anyway, and even DEX 18 guy would have 60% chance of failing in armor. No thanks. There is the movement speed, but given the divisor of 10 and rounding, it is very easy for a SIZ 18 guy to just get enough STR to make his Move 2.5 -> rounds to 3 (STR 15 in this scenario, leaving DEX 18 SIZ 9 guy at Move 3.3 = 3, and DMG 4d6, both suboptimal builds). And this gives SIZ 18 6d6 damage, too, knocking SIZ 9 flat on his back automatically about 80% of the time.

This is why many of us feel that DEX needs some kind of a boost to make it a more worthwhile investment. For example, making physical skills have starting values of DEX/2 in the character generation means that if you invest in DEX in beginning, you will need to invest less in skill points later on, meaning those saved yearly trainings can go towards boosting your STR or CON instead. And hence make DEX less useless. 

[Luca Cherstich]

2 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

Tai is the best. Then Con. Then For. Then Dex. Then App. Don't tell your players

I know...but we have been exploiting Book of Feasts and somebody has been seated in wrong positions and lost some Honour because of failing APP rolls!

[fulk]

I do like the 1/2 dex as a default weapon skill, although I might make it something like 1/2Dex +3, just to give a little bump.  That would give your average knight a default of 8-9 on most weapon skills and gives the DEX 18 knight an advantage (WS12).

Both the benefit and the problem with KAP is that the system is really so simple that it is hard to apply more complex calculations to it. 

That said, I think a lot of other "problems" like fighting without armor or defensively would be better served by applying a negative modifier to your opponent rather than giving a positive modifier to the PK because it would reduce the incidence of critical hits.  Just a thought early, pre-caffe.

 

[Luca Cherstich]

19 minutes ago, fulk said:

I do like the 1/2 dex as a default weapon skill, although I might make it something like 1/2Dex +3, just to give a little bump.  That would give your average knight a default of 8-9 on most weapon skills and gives the DEX 18 knight an advantage (WS12).

What about all those basic weapon skills which in the Core Rules (or in BoK&L's lists of many cultures) are lower?

For example Cymric knights start with Dagger 5 and other cultures start with weapon skill with all different values (e.g. Irish knights with Spear 5 or Picts with Spear 7, etc..) are you suggesting to start ALL of them from something Dex-derived?

So, basically ignoring most of the basic weapon skill values in either BoK&L and Core Rules?

[Morien]

14 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

So, basically ignoring most of the basic weapon skill values in either BoK&L and Core Rules?

Yep, now you got it. 

As for DEX/2 +0 or +3 or even +5, all of those would be fine by me. Even +5 would just get DEX 20 guy to 15, which is still OK.

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I've been reading KAP for long time but, compared to you all, I'm just a newbie, since I've started playing it seriously only recently.

However...why are you saying that DEX is a useless stat which needs to be powered?

Dex is used for avoiding knockdown in combat and for many, many actions...am I misunderstanding anything?

Let me try to elaborate by comparing DEX to the other statistics..

SIZ: Factors into Hit Points, and Damage stats and is also the Knockdown (KD) value. KD allone is better than DEX since it is better to not have to make a DEX to to avoid failing down. Probably the most important stat.

CON: Factors into Hit Points, healing rate and is the Major Wound (MW) value. Probably equal to or nearly equal to SIZ in importance.

STR: Factors into Damage, Healing Rate and Move. A nice stat but not as important as SIZ or CON

DEX: Used to avoid knockdown if and when the damage exceeds SIZ and the character is on foot. If a character is mounted DEX is superseded by Horsemanship.. Also used for other agility based things like climbing, jumping or stealth, most of which are either un-knightly (stealth) or not worth attempting while in armor. 

APP: Used to determine the number of distinctive features, and, for those using the Book of Feasts, potential seating. Not other explicit game use at all, other than to suffer loses from aging.. In fact an ugly character with high courtly skills will do better with the opposite sex than a good looking one with low courtly skills. As STATS go APP has reason to be jealous of DEX. 

 

When players created characters using the standard method, the highest stats are always SIZ or CON. The PK who starts off with a 18 SIZ or CON starts off considerably better than one with an 18 DEX.

 

Now, I'm sure someone will chime is to say how much more important DEX in in KAP than in RQ, but it's just not so. In RQ DEX factored into the skill scores and (sometimes) the improvement rolls for multiple skills, and factored into he strike rank when a attack or spell went off. But in KAP melee combat is an opposed roll, and DEX doesn't factor into skill at all. Take two otherwise idential knights on horseback and take 5 points of DEX off of one to give to the other and chances are it won't affect the combat at all. Do the same with SIZ, DEX or even STR and you significantly shift the probabilities as to who will win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

22 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

So, basically ignoring most of the basic weapon skill values in either BoK&L and Core Rules?

Just to add to this a bit, way back when this was first presented (and shot down) the idea was that DEX/2 was the "floor" value. That is if a skill was supposed to start off higher then the higher value would still apply. So if a Saxon had DEX 12, but was supposed to start with 2-H Weapons 9, he'd still start with 2-H Weapons 9, but all his other Combat/DEX skills would start off at 6.

[Morien]

35 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Just to add to this a bit, way back when this was first presented (and shot down) the idea was that DEX/2 was the "floor" value. That is if a skill was supposed to start off higher then the higher value would still apply. So if a Saxon had DEX 12, but was supposed to start with 2-H Weapons 9, he'd still start with 2-H Weapons 9, but all his other Combat/DEX skills would start off at 6.

Thanks for the clarification. I was already a step further which was basically not giving any or very minor cultural skill differences. Let the Player decide what kind of a Saxon he is playing, I say, rather than locking him/her in to be a Great Axe wielding boatsman. Heck, the Berroc Saxons have been living inland (albeit alongside Thames, admittedly) for almost a century by the start of GPC!

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Morien said:

Thanks for the clarification. I was already a step further which was basically not giving any or very minor cultural skill differences. Let the Player decide what kind of a Saxon he is playing, I say, rather than locking him/her in to be a Great Axe wielding boatsman. Heck, the Berroc Saxons have been living inland (albeit alongside Thames, admittedly) for almost a century by the start of GPC!

I can see your point there, I just wanted to go back to the original idea that has been shot down so many times, for reasons that I never quite understood.

I can easily see dropping the cultural weapon skills for a DEX based default. While giving one culture Spear 7,  Dagger 5 and another culture Great Axe 6, Spear 7 might look like some form of cultural diversity, that makes each culture distinct, the reality is no one wants to march into battle relying upon a low combat skill, and everyone bumps whatever weapons they decide to use to to 10+ anyway. Especially so with Player Knights. No PK actually wants to rely upon "Dagger 5" anymore than they want to rely upon "Swim 5."

Since most skills don't vary much between cultures I see the whole culture skills/weapons thing similar to how mook opponents in RQ2 used to get individualized stat sheets. As if a 5% difference in sling skill or a 1 point difference in STR or CON was noticeable by the players. That why latter supplements, and updated versions of those early adventures tended to drop the customized stats for generic ones.