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Shadowdragon

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On page 26 of the core BRP book it says "Values for SIZ characteristics higher than 25 can be found in Chapter Eight: Equipment on page 237." I looked on page 237 and there's no table on that page. I skimmed the entire book and I couldn't spot a table for SIZ values over 25. Is there supposed to be such a table in the core book? Are SIZ values over 25 simply +2 inches equals +1 SIZ?

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On page 26 of the core BRP book it says "Values for SIZ characteristics higher than 25 can be found in Chapter Eight: Equipment on page 237." I looked on page 237 and there's no table on that page. I skimmed the entire book and I couldn't spot a table for SIZ values over 25. Is there supposed to be such a table in the core book? Are SIZ values over 25 simply +2 inches equals +1 SIZ?

Try page 296 (from memory).

My understanding about SIZ is that is primarily indicates mass, not height, which may be causing you some confusion.

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Well, you just made my day. :D

It is only fair to give credit where credit is due.

I've spent heaps of time looking at the EQ3 SIZ table and the only conclusion I could come up with was that it was "odd".

Once you told me about the SIZ + 8 equals double the mass, it made sense.

There are still errors in the official table (as you have pointed out), and it is debatable how well the SIZ ranges given for various real creatures actually represent the weights of those creatures, but that is not the fault of the table itself.

I had created my own modification of the official table, but have dropped it in favour of yours.

When are you going to put it into the downloads section?

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I'm usually better at figuring out how tall or long something is. Is there a way to figure out a creature's average weight based on it's height or length? Say I've got a 4 foot tall goblin, or a 20 foot tall giant, or a 40 foot long dragon, etc. how do I figure out how much their average weight is?

Edited by Shadowdragon
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I'm usually better at figuring out how tall or long something is. Is there a way to figure out a creature's average weight based on it's height or length? Say I've got a 4 foot tall goblin, or a 20 foot tall giant, or a 40 foot long dragon, etc. how do I figure out how much their average weight is?

By a bit of guesstimation.

SIZ in BRP is explicitly a measure of mass (the author of BRP's predecessor RuneQuest slapped me down - politely - in a playtest forum and told me so straight)

One problem is that SIZ progression is non-linear (I confess I don't quite understand why but wiser people than I have said that otherwise it would just explode out all control) so any equation will be either fairly complex OR only valid for a small range of SIZ values.

The other is that density is going to have a BIG impact. For animals no doubt one COULD draw up a chart of SIZ - mass - estimated height/length. 'Simply' (hmmm) plugging in the length of a real world animal with a mass similar to that in the mass column.

Al the not very helpful

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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What would be some benchmarks for SIZ then? I'm just trying to figure out how big SIZ 30 actually is and how it compares to SIZ 300, for example. Some examples using common real world animals/objects/terrain features would be really helpful. If a T-Rex was SIZ whatever then a dragon of about equal size would be about the same SIZ. If a 1 inch long spider is SIZ whatever then a spider 10 feet long would be SIZ whatever. Stuff like that.

Edited by Shadowdragon
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I think the problem with height/length is that it just isnt straight forward. Sure, for humanoids you could probably compare, but how to you compare the height of a human to that of a horse. How do you compare a horse to a giraffe, or the length of a python to an elephant? Mass, by contrast, is easy to compare. Furthermore, mass makes more sense forming part of the calculation for determining HP and Damage bonus that height does. Tall people aren't necessarily more swarthy, nor do they hit harder.

But I see where your coming from - I've run into this issue in my games, too. Just how tall is a SIZ 25 giant ape, and can it fit through the door?

What's probably needed is something to compare size to height for average humanoids (as opposed to short, fat humanoids, or tall thin ones). And from there, basically each creature description could use a line stating that 'this creature ranges in height from X to Y'. But that's a lot of work and I'm not up to it, so I just wing it.

Thalaba

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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For me it's more the other way, I'm statting out a bunch of creatures and I have no idea what SIZ to give them. Should a 10 foot long spider be SIZ 20, 30, 40, 100? Are 4 foot tall goblins SIZ 4, 6, 8? In other games size is split into very few levels (D&D only has 9, Savage Worlds has 12 I think). It's difficult to go from them to a system like BRP that breaks size down into hundreds of teeny-tiny levels. If SIZ weren't so important in BRP I'd just get rid of it or exchange it for something a lot easier and simpler.

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For me it's more the other way, I'm statting out a bunch of creatures and I have no idea what SIZ to give them. Should a 10 foot long spider be SIZ 20, 30, 40, 100? Are 4 foot tall goblins SIZ 4, 6, 8?

I've done a fair bit of work on this type of thing. In my campaign I created stats for a whole lot of real prehistoric Australian animals (Carnifex, Diprotodon, Megalania, Demon Duck of Doom etc).

I have also created quite a few fictitious beasties too.

I still work off mass. In game terms, mass affects HP and SR. Physical size is a description.

How much do you think your giant spider will weigh?

As much as a deer, horse, a hippo, an elephant?

Use a resource (perhaps wiki) to determine the weight of your real, similar mass creature) and then use the SIZ table to get some idea of the value for SIZ.

Even for humanoids, the same thing applies. How heavy is your goblin? Use that to work out SIZ. Height is just a description.

As an example, in games where I’ve used elves and dwarves, I’ve messed with the SIZ values. In the BRP manual, elves have a SIZ of 2D4+4, while dwarves have 1D4+4. That is not how I think of these two races. My elves are lithe and shorter than humans, so 2D4+4 is reasonable, but my dwarves are shorter than elves but very stocky. I find 1D4+4 to be way too low. I actually use 2D4+6 for their SIZ.

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Isn't weight just as bad at determining SIZ as height is? I mean something could be really small but really dense, making it a lot heavier than it looks. The ghost of a giant wouldn't weigh anything at all, so does that make it SIZ 0? Also, I read somewhere that the value of a characteristic doubles for every +10 added to it. Doesn't that mean that SIZ 20 is supposed to be twice the mass as SIZ 10, and SIZ 30 is supposed to be twice the mass of SIZ 20?

Sigh, I don't think I'll ever get the hang of SIZ in BRP. I can think of weight and height in very general terms, but not in the level of detail required in BRP. I mean I know that a hobgoblin is slightly larger than a human, but I don't know if that makes it's average weight 170lbs, 190 lbs, 210lbs, etc.

Maybe I should just post up a bunch of creatures and get some help from those of you who are a little more experienced at figuring out the SIZ of creatures.

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This might help.

There is something known as the "square-cube" law. What it states is that if you double the Length, Width and Height of an object or by extension, a creature) you cube it's mass. So if you have some idea as to the size of a typical specimen, you can make a good guess as to how much larger something is using SIZ.

For instance if you know a average ant is 6 mm long an has a mass of 3 miligrams, then a giant ant 60cm long should have a mass or around 3000 kg (100 times as long, cubed, times mass)! That's about SIZ 55, and kind of explains why ants don't grow that big. Each of its spindly, hollow legs would need to be able to support half a ton, and would need to be stronger than steel. Even if it were made out of some strong stuff, the legs would probably stick into the ground and make it tough for the thing to walk.

Another helpful bit is that most creatures are comprised mostly of water, and tend to have a mass something like 80% that of a similar volume of water. There is some variation, but it's a good rule of thumb for most creatures. So if you caqn get an idea of how big a suitcase it would take to fold the thing up, you can get a reasonable guesstimate of it weight (and SIZ).

BTW, I once gave a group a SIZ 16 statue made of gold as treasure and worked out just how much the damn thing weighed (2.3 metric tons). At 100 coins /kg and with 1 gold con =240 RQ pennies, this meant the thing was worth over 55 million pennies, but was very difficult for the party to transport.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Hm, I think I may be doing this square-cube thing wrong. A large tarantula is about 10cm long and weighs 150g. For a 244cm long spider (about 8 feet) I got a weight of 2179kg (SIZ 51). That doesn't seem right for something that's only 2 feet longer than an average human is tall. But then, SIZ 55 for something only 60cm long also seems way too high.

Edited by Shadowdragon
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Hm, I think I may be doing this square-cube thing wrong. A large tarantula is about 10cm long and weighs 150g. For a 244cm long spider (about 8 feet) I got a weight of 2179kg (SIZ 51). That doesn't seem right for something that's only 2 feet longer than an average human is tall. But then, SIZ 55 for something only 60cm long also seems way too high.

Our scuttly friends carry their skeletons around on the outside and have molasses-like pseudo-blood. So I'm happy to wear them being signiciantly denser than dull old mammals. Add in the extra legs and something not much longer than a human is tall and I can see it being MUCH more massive. But not THAT MUCH more massive.

However tbh I don't quite get the worked example of square-cube

Assumption: double length = cube mass

Exhibit A length = 6mm, mass = 0.000003kg

Exhibit B length = 600mm

therefore approx. massb = massa x (lengthb/lengtha)^3

approx = 0.000003 x (600/6)^3

approx = 0.000003 x (100)^3

approx =3 kg

3kg ain't SIZ 55!

Where am I going wrong?

Al

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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I mean I know that a hobgoblin is slightly larger than a human, but I don't know if that makes it's average weight 170lbs, 190 lbs, 210lbs, etc.

As I see it you have three choices:

Go out, catch a bunch of hobgoblins and weigh them.

Refer to someone else's work who has determined/decided how much they weigh.

Make it up. It is your game. I'm sure there aren't many players who will storm out of your game ranting that you are an idiot because your hobgoblins weigh 190lbs instead of 210lbs.

Seriously though, for hobgoblins, I could suggest two ideas.

You want them bigger than humans. Does that mean:

Simply slightly bigger

or

On average bigger, but with the same maximum (i.e the biggest humans are the same as the biggest hobgoblins).

For option A, why don't you simply give them a SIZ of 2D6+8 or 2D6+9. You could also do something similar for STR (3D6+2 or 3D6+3)

For option B, you could try 2D4+10 and perhaps also adjust STR (perhaps 2D6+6)

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I must admit I find the SIZ stat to be the most frustrating in BRP. I've always felt that you needed three tables: Height, Length, Weight and your final SIZ would be an average of the three.

As an old Squad Leader and then Advanced Squad Leader player, I can confirm that there is a point where trying to make things too realistic becomes too much trouble.

I, like many other people have experimented with breaking SIZ down into multiple stats. Like most other people I know that have tried it, I eventually decided it wasn’t worth the trouble.

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I've been looking at some other books for examples of SIZ and I don't think that's going to work. Leng Spiders average 1.5 metric tons and 10 feet in body length (about the size I want for my giant spider), but it's listed with an average SIZ of 35 in the CoC book. According to Atgxtg's table and the Comparative Sizes table in the BRP book, that weight should be SIZ 47. Sigh, I dislike games with ambiguous size ratings.

Unfortunately, since SIZ effects db and hit points a few points too high, or too low, can make a big difference. Well, at least I assume it will since my only experience with BRP is with Call of Cthulhu and there isn't much combat in CoC. I'm expecting a lot more combat in my high fantasy campaign.

Edited by Shadowdragon
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Unfortunately, since SIZ effects db and hit points a few points too high, or too low, can make a big difference. Well, at least I assume it will since my only experience with BRP is with Call of Cthulhu and there isn't much combat in CoC. I'm expecting a lot more combat in my high fantasy campaign.

When it comes to creating creatures, I follow two policies:

For creatures that exist or did once exist, I generally try to make them as accurate as possible.

For fantasy creatures, such as your giant spiders, I decide how tough I want them to be. Approximately how many HP and how much damage they will do. How fast and intelligent etc.

I will then mess about with STR, SIZ and CON to get it to around my desired figure. To me, gameplay is the important thing.

As I've written before, the dimensions of the creature are generally just descriptions - though obviously common sense prevails.

If you are interested in gaint spiders, I have created a couple of "species" that I can post if you want. They are not just normal gaint spiders, but have some special abilities.

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I must admit I find the SIZ stat to be the most frustrating in BRP. I've always felt that you needed three tables: Height, Length, Weight and your final SIZ would be an average of the three.

Other Suns (Niall Shapero's BRP-like SF game) had two rolled stats - Length (length of body along longest axis) and Build (mass of body), and figured a third stat, Size, from the two.

It's one of the details from Other Suns I've always liked.

Cheers,

Nick

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If you are interested in gaint spiders, I have created a couple of "species" that I can post if you want. They are not just normal gaint spiders, but have some special abilities.

The first adventure I want to run has some giant spiders in it. I've been able to stat out the rest of the creatures, but the spiders are proving to be difficult. Besides, I'm always interested in checking out monster stats. The selection of monsters in the core BRP book is pretty small. I've been thinking of getting the Basic Bestiary book but it looks like it has exactly the same monsters as the core BRP book. Once I get a bit more used to BRP (and when/if I get used to this SIZ thing) I'm going to be statting out a ton of new monsters.

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As an old Squad Leader and then Advanced Squad Leader player, I can confirm that there is a point where trying to make things too realistic becomes too much trouble.

I, like many other people have experimented with breaking SIZ down into multiple stats. Like most other people I know that have tried it, I eventually decided it wasn’t worth the trouble.

As you say,there comes a point when it simply is too much hassle. But with the SIZ stat I don't think it's at that point yet. if you had all three tables ( height, length, weight ) on the same page it'd be the work of moments to figure out the final SIZ stat. To be honest it's the only stat that really bugs me. You can argue back and forth on some of the others but they all do the job pretty well. SIZ on the other hand fails ( to my mind ) pretty soon after you look at it.

Still, it is what it is, and I'll just have to put up with it :D

As an afterthought if SIZ is a measurement of weight, would we all have different SIZ stats in low gravity or no gravity settings, or am I getting weight mixed up with mass there ? ( physics was never my strong point.... )

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Other Suns (Niall Shapero's BRP-like SF game) had two rolled stats - Length (length of body along longest axis) and Build (mass of body), and figured a third stat, Size, from the two.

It's one of the details from Other Suns I've always liked.

Cheers,

Nick

Sounds like a good idea to me, I really ought to find a copy of Other Suns and look at it, people always seem to speak of it positively.

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