Kingdom of Beasts (Dawn Age Fronela)

[Sir_Godspeed]

50 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Altinelans are an elusive people. I don't recall them ever having sorcerous magic but perhaps once upon a time they (or now estranged cousins) devoted themselves to logic, came south and left marks on the world's white quarter. Maybe Umath's concurrent fall taught them their mistake. Thinking a little deeper I would not be surprised if this is the tale of how they were sundered from the Luathans, who persisted in the cruelties of sorcery and went west red and screaming to the fifth hell, there to maintain their enmity against their frosty and nominally unfallen counterparts. I had never been able to figure that out before.

The division of sorcery, theism and animism feels a bit odd before Time.

[Sir_Godspeed]

45 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The setting of the 4 Camps of the Golden Age (and also the 4 triangular "worlds" that sort of crash together in Revealed Mythology maps) suggests that these folk were originally separate, each with their own magical viewpoint, and their discovery of each other led to some of the subsequent conflicts perhaps over which magico-philosophical approach was correct. 

 

That's almost outright explicit in Book of Heortling Mythology, where Lhankor Mhy basically states that there are other worlds with other Lhankor Mhys and Orlanths, but they work differently. They meet at the Spike. 

According to @Joerg's comments, if I remember correctly, this approach has been either retconned or just kinda abandoned. I mean, it's there, but it doesn't seem to be brought up in newer publications.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That sounds like one of the Chaos armies though.

And as it says in the note on p.70: "Scourge. If I am not mistaken, this is the same horde which melted the pass through the mountains in modern Tork"  (oddly despite knowing that Chaos had melted the pass, I had not seen that note before!)

The Entekosiad is a haunted place, the words seem to realign on the page when we're not watching them carefully, like the type in most people's dreams. I am Green Pages Edition, for example, so that note has been moved to my p. 84 . . . my p. 70 is Hunter Tales. This is profoundly useful however because this is a story of how King Bear made people, which could have been additional evidence for a broader cultural band stretching from far Erigia across to Arir if not for the fact that "we know" these cults were strangers before being introduced in the Khornazelm era, coincidentally enough. Two bears came together, then one male and one female.

A deeper look at incompleteness in the Entekosiad adds up to a somewhat more nuanced understanding of how the term was used. The Gods' First Error suggests a degeneration that starts with alienation (VogTest) to selfishness to logic to incompleteness (mockery) to ravaging. These last three are distinct classes. The Veltornians then sidestep both Logic and Incompleteness. Finally, Voragat "calls his companions" to destroy the world. The Incompletes are singled out as first of these diabolical invasions. In this story, any and all of these bad ways of life may be conflated with each other and what the heortlings call chaos. 

The Incompletes come to Pelanda from the north and then the Scourge appears to move southeast . . . so it would punch through Tork in that direction before getting dragged into their ravine. If I were trying to push I'd think this is one of Greg's scattered compass confusions and the "west" of Destarkos (what a word, right?) is in the east where the Crack is. It would be nice to explain the Crack.

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As far as the White Goddess goes, I have yet to shake the feeling that the modern cult is a syncretism between a grieving mother and a dying god, Chalana + Arroi(n). The dying god appears in mythology absent from mom and probably vice versa. He might have first met her in one of those elf forests that no longer exist, while surviving forests maintain their own stories. 

Thanks to all weighing in here. More always welcome!

 

 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

the modern cult is a syncretism between a grieving mother and a dying god, Chalana + Arroi(n).

I agree with that.

[Joerg]

On 5/6/2020 at 4:01 PM, scott-martin said:

Not a Serpent Beast system. A separate solution to the existential problems. A different covenant or survivor pact of sorts that then develops within time. Storm totems. Maybe an entire storm ecology where now only the storm bull and occasional storm ram, storm tiger and so on persist elsewhere.

The Hsunchen catalogue beast totems are usually mammals, with a few exceptions (owls, turtles). But then, the beasts associated with Storm include a few outliers, too, like the Thunder Bird, a subset of raptor birds (storm hawks, as opposed to Vrok hawks).

Most Storm beasts are herd animals that enable the pastoralist lifestyle, but then there are the hunter deities with their carnivore associates (including Humakt with Raven and Wolf), and there are Orlanthi with a Hykimi backstory like Greymane of Basmoli or Pendali ancestry.

 

The transition from hunting/gathering to pastoralism with some "tame" or partner beasts out of the herds one follows and hunts is not that easy to pinpoint. Why are stag-riding Pralori counted among the Hsunchen rather than among the pastoralist storm tribes like those of Prax? Herding meat animals while riding some of them (or using them as beasts of burden/draught beasts) sounds a lot like the way of the Beast Riders. Yes, Waha created a covenant, yadda yadda. Look at the Andam Horde, then. Not a covenant, herded their own totemic beasts, may have herded others too... the only difference to the Praxians is the different terrain and lack of Waha. About their humans not being fully sapient yet - many Pelorians might be inclined to agree to that.

Pure Horse Folk ride a fire-associated beast. Otherwise, they are not that different from Praxians. Their dietary dictum is sterner than that of Praxians - no meat from domesticated beasts but horses, althouh hunted (non-domesticated) beasts may provide meat. And Praxian herd beasts without riders can be hunted without breaking that taboo, I suppose. Just not herded, possibly milked, and then butchered.

Galanini are nomadic hunter-gatherers herding horses mainly as remounts. Hardly different from Pralori when they hunt other beasts (e.g. wild pigs).

 

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People like the Telmorites and early Ygg would have interacted with that ecology, making their various historical choices. 

Of course the Bear played a huge role, it got cold up there in the ice age. 

Bears exposed to cold climate usually hibernate. Rathor used to be worshiped for not having to hibernate...

 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Chalana Arroy's name is unusual. 

Is it a (southern) Spike name? The Dara Happan Celestial Court is somewhat different form the God Learner court of runes, which Chalana Arroy appearst to be related to. Her name is semi-rhyming to that of her main mother Harana Ilor. Linguistically, Chalana and Harana aren't that far apart.

 

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The "CH" sound is not native to DH, as noted in FS p.93: "Ch(a) is the most alien letter. It is the only one which does not have a deity associated with it. In fact, it is used almost exclusively within words, such as in Asharthcha."

That main figure is referenced in GRoY where Asharthcha, per the notes, literally “North-Overseer-White.”  "Cha - lana" likely meaning "White Lady" or "White Goddess".  The northern association suggests a tie-in with Zenfel and the White/Alabaster Camp that is crushed by Umath (which is then filled by water).  Personally, I think Chalana Arroy might originally be an Altinae deity or demi-god who found or inherited Harana Ilor's Harp of Harmony.  And that would add to the northern/White Sea/White Camp associations.

The four camps are a weirdness, as they appea to be iterative - there are four camps around the Spike, associated with the four directional rulers, and then the northern directional ruler (deluding himself as being the Emperor of the Universe) has four such camps delineating the outline of his realm.

The respective camps don't map consistently. The southern camp is the Bronze Camp in Plentonius, associated with Strength. Afidisa's southern camp (and the God Learner One) is the camp of Innocence.

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The Altinelans are an elusive people. I don't recall them ever having sorcerous magic

In the "three separate worlds" model, they are firmly in the Theist camp, and their description in Anaxial's Roster reflects that.

 

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but perhaps once upon a time they (or now estranged cousins) devoted themselves to logic, came south and left marks on the world's white quarter.

Are you trying to shoe-horn Chalana Arroy's acceptance of sorcery and shamanism into this? Why?

 

 

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Maybe Umath's concurrent fall taught them their mistake.

One possible source story here may be how the White God was kept from healing Umath, and the White Goddess leaving in protest. The protest being going about healing everyone.

 

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Thinking a little deeper I would not be surprised if this is the tale of how they were sundered from the Luathans, who persisted in the cruelties of sorcery and went west red and screaming to the fifth hell, there to maintain their enmity against their frosty and nominally unfallen counterparts. I had never been able to figure that out before.

Not just red but crimson. The sequence of the colors of the camp is reciproking the sequence of Tyndall effect misting up suspensions - from white via yellow and reddish to very dark (purple). The number of rays in the Gods War is almost like their transmission spectrum.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Plentonius notes in the Gods Wall reference: "The Healing Goddess. She is also called Our White Goddess."  So there's definitely the "White" association.  I don't know the derivation of "Erissa" though.  Perhaps it's her actual name rather than the Title, which is certainly the case for "Chalana".

There are other kennings for CA that could make that name. "The Restorer", "the peaceful one", "the merciful one" (important in the Second Age Sun Domer victory over the trolls), ...

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There are references to the White Lady e.g. GRoY p.15: "Not even the White Lady, could change Murharzarm’s fate."  GRoY p.38 "[Antirius] is the Giver of Wisdom, for he rescued the Heart of Oslira and gives it out through the hands of the White Lady to bring back life."

Is there any relationship between the White Lady and the White Queens of yore?

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But it's odd that Plentonius uses the word "CHA" for referencing White, suggesting perhaps that the term/color "white" was brought from outside (i.e. the north/Alabaster camp).

Perhaps that's a different kind f white (or white light) than the original white of Verithurus(a) or the cyclical White Goddess that ruled before Yelm.

Yelm's light is golden, starlight is silver. Moonglow is weirdly tinted. I wouldn't be astonished if the Dara Happan language had a graded, possibly hierarchical color table.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Separately, and perhaps related to either the Altinae or Mernita we have these two references by Plentonius suggesting he mixed up some associations between White/North/Wisdom.

GRoY p. 57: "Asharthcha. White Overseer of the North, Ruler of the Compass, Keeper of Wisdom. He is also called the Long-bearded Measurer."

GRoY p. 58: "Verithurus. Overseer of Mernita. He is one of the Eight Celestial Sons of Yelm. He is also called the Master of Wisdom, the White God."  [Whereas from other sources we know this is Verithurusa, the Goddess of the White Moon.  Here the Mernita/planetary connection seems right, and she is associated with White, but the "Master of Wisdom" seems drawn from Asharthcha.]  She also might be the White Queen from Entekosiad p.12: "White Queen. This is the daughter of Franas."

Wisdom is the northern direction. The cardinals and the corners each have their association. Wisdom, Insight, Strength, Sovereignty for the cardinals N E S W, Action, Serenity, Brilliance and Transformation for NE, SE, SW and NW. GRoY p.8

It may be just me, but the White Queens seem to have ruled in Sovereignty over Mt Jernotius. The northern White God of Mernita is also Jernedeus.

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The setting of the 4 Camps of the Golden Age (and also the 4 triangular "worlds" that sort of crash together in Revealed Mythology maps) suggests that these folk were originally separate, each with their own magical viewpoint, and their discovery of each other led to some of the subsequent conflicts perhaps over which magico-philosophical approach was correct. 

There is the God Learner story about the four tribes of Mountain Peoples, with the western one founding the Kingdom of Logic. These are just inside the Inner World.

Like I said above, the camps appear to be recursive, centered on different Axiis Mundorum.

We know of demigod guardians of the cardinals - Altinelans and Luatha, perhaps Bomonoi. And of immortals originating not far from those places - Agitori and Danmalastans.

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It could be though that the Black Camp/Luathans were involved to some degree in the fall of Umath, though, in an attempt to obliterate the "false" ideas of the Altinae. Consequently, the Altinae withdrew further from the world (or witnessed the rise of Storm and then Chaos from the hole and sought out a place even more remote, or at the border with Chaos that is exposed when the Sky Dome tilts southward).

Are the Altinae immortals like Agitori, Vadeli and Brithini, or are they more like the Luatha? Snodal's interaction with them suggests that they are on a similar level as Malkion and his wives and children.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The division of sorcery, theism and animism feels a bit odd before Time.

Actually, that's from the "Collision of the Four Worlds" model, with a theist north, an animist south, a sorcerous west and a mystical east coming together to form Glorantha, pushing up the Spike in the common center. Possibly like a pyramid.

Not exactly the most canonical concept any more, but that's where the Four Worlds used to come from.

 

29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Incompletes come to Pelanda from the north

Up the Oronin River. This could refer to riverine Waertagi, or westerners following their waterways (Kachisti, Vadeli, Brithini...)

 

 

29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

As far as the White Goddess goes, I have yet to shake the feeling that the modern cult is a syncretism between a grieving mother and a dying god, Chalana + Arroi(n). The dying god appears in mythology absent from mom and probably vice versa. He might have first met her in one of those elf forests that no longer exist, while surviving forests maintain their own stories. 

There's Eron (as in Erontree, the temperate coastal rainforest of southern Fronela), the water-bringer of the Aldryami, who might be another cognate of Arroin. Loss of his healing waters?

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Hsunchen catalogue beast totems are usually mammals, with a few exceptions (owls, turtles). But then, the beasts associated with Storm include a few outliers, too, like the Thunder Bird, a subset of raptor birds (storm hawks, as opposed to Vrok hawks).

This is great because it suggests differentiated development of the totemic pantheon in Fronela and Ralios. The Kingdom of Beasts as a Storm Beast system that under the right conditions develops into something like conventional "Orlanthi." The Serpent Kings system obviously explores a Dragon Beast direction with their vanished reptile hsunchen shamans and so on. The northern branch is usually organized around beasts we know (but see below). The southern branch coalesces around a hybrid totemic entity that combines natural animal features into something a little more exotic. 

The Rathorites and Pendalites share some level of religious continuity in the old sources so I am inclined to think that system comes first and then the Serpent King approach is an innovation, maybe from something like "Immortality Lost" in the Entekosiad. The Telmorites, however, are mostly on the Ralios side and so are caught up in the Nysalorean gospel when it comes across the pass. They become an accursed people. The Pendalites largely die out before history makes them choose between "chaos" and storm so we don't have to worry about them . . . but in the fullness of Glorantha, it's fun to leave a space open for what they would have become if they could have chosen storm, build out a Storm Lion totem and start recruiting. It's the Hero Wars. 

Having Storm Beast and Dragon Beast on the table is really helpful as a way to explore how totemism evolves like other Gloranthan religions, making Darwin proud in the process. It also helps explain why some totemic nations go to war or make peace even if the underlying ancestors aren't naturally antagonistic or aligned. Wolf people fought on both sides of Talor's wars. While most horse people seem to have been on the "chaos" side undoubtedly there were some traditionalist holdouts. Those are the ones whose children survive. There might have been a "chaos" faction within the bull people that I don't know about. There were probably settled "chaos" bear children in the Fronelan cities who had forgotten their ways. 

Dragon Beast is not necessarily aligned with "chaos" but is open to Nysalor in ways that Storm Beast seems to resist. Again this might be a renegade mystical or proto-lunar influence special to the Ormsland colony and then feeding the dragonewt centers in the southwest. Reptile is cyclical in "Immortality Lost." There are no extant dragon influences in modern Fronela that I am aware of. Maybe there were some once and they didn't survive.

I suspect a Fronelan "dragon" would have had silver feet and been a quest figure for Rathorites trying to achieve unity in the forest so they could better crush their enemies. Snodal's sacrifice eliminates that threat and then Harrek further damages the system's ability to recover. We can search and maybe find new and surprising solutions but no New Bear Empire. 

But the whiteness of the bear, the whiteness of the moon to come (Jonat's people knew a white moon), the whiteness of the problem the Pelorians have with the lady of mercy. Hell, the whiteness of white elves. Don't worry, I have no interest in shoehorning Altinela to fit a rules tweak in the CA cult. But shoehorning CA to explore Altinela might be interesting. There's an elf angle. And I really love the spectral analysis. 

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is gray and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion

And then there's the Kralorelan system.

Edited May 8, 2020 by scott-martin
got to make room for Dragon Sun or "Bird"

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually, that's from the "Collision of the Four Worlds" model, with a theist north, an animist south, a sorcerous west and a mystical east coming together to form Glorantha, pushing up the Spike in the common center. Possibly like a pyramid.

Not exactly the most canonical concept any more, but that's where the Four Worlds used to come from.

That's sort of what I mean. It makes sense in a differentiated origin like the Four World, but in a world where these gods all coexisted, how exactly do you differentiate Orlanth summoning his mighty winds (theism in the God Time), and the Burtae Worlath manipulating his runic power to make winds? (sorcery in the God Time) 

Revealed mythologies seem to imply that even in the God Time sacrifices were a thing, and that lesser gods could sacrifice to greater gods (the gods of the Vithelans appear to have sacrifices to the High Gods, f.ex.), so I guess that system works even in a system where there is not God Time - Middle World separation as there is in Time.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed