Shooting while in close combat.

[4Acrossisemu]

This recently came up with a player that was pinned down, and while i think it is intended that you aren't meant to be using firearms in close combat, it isn't written explicitly like shooting INTO combat.  

My reasoning for not being able to do it are:

you can't attack back with firearms if you are defending from a melee. 

You have an action to escape close combat. 

You would make a lot of melee redundant by allowing it. 

the Point Blank rule states 1/5th DEX for an advantage, i can't see rolling about in the mud giving an advantage. So i don't think the intent behind it was to shoot inside combat. 

 

How do you handle it, and why? (the player is certain there is a handguns can be shot in close combat, but we can't find it too)

Edited June 1, 2020 by 4Acrossisemu

[Mike M]

Ok - on your action in combat, if you have a handgun in hand, you could fire (point-blank), your opponent's reaction is stand and take it, dive for cover, or try a maneuver to wrestle the gun away/grab it.

On your opponent's action in that round - they attack you with a knife or fist etc, you cannot fire back as "fight back" option (as you can only fire on your action) - but you could fight back, using the gun as cosh, or dodge as normal. 

 

 

[4Acrossisemu]

24 minutes ago, Mike M said:

Ok - on your action in combat, if you have a handgun in hand, you could fire (point-blank), your opponent's reaction is stand and take it, dive for cover, or try a maneuver to wrestle the gun away/grab it.

On your opponent's action in that round - they attack you with a knife or fist etc, you cannot fire back as "fight back" option (as you can only fire on your action) - but you could fight back, using the gun as cosh, or dodge as normal. 

 

 

That works. cheers.

[Shawn Carpenter]

2 hours ago, Mike M said:

Ok - on your action in combat, if you have a handgun in hand, you could fire (point-blank), your opponent's reaction is stand and take it, dive for cover, or try a maneuver to wrestle the gun away/grab it.

On your opponent's action in that round - they attack you with a knife or fist etc, you cannot fire back as "fight back" option (as you can only fire on your action) - but you could fight back, using the gun as cosh, or dodge as normal. 

Nice to see such a reasonable treatment of the use of handguns or other close combat firearms!

[4Acrossisemu]

38 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

Nice to see such a reasonable treatment of the use of handguns or other close combat firearms!

Yep, but oh, this opened a can of worms. Questions that have already been ask. 

Is the point blank (1/5th dex) considered the definition of in Close Combat for shooting into it. which is 10-18 feet at 50-90 dex.

Range weapons (bows, other primitive weapons) and throwing attack have this rule pointed out already as they are slow to use, but now it included handguns. Why only handguns, and not all guns. As Rifles/Shotguns are more cumbersome (Point Blank Revisited even gives them no bonus in this range), so why couldn't you grab those within 10-18 feet too.

Walking up to an opponent with a pistol is now more dangerous, as they now can be bum rushed within point blank range where if the PC had a shotgun, the opponent couldn't react with this action.

Yesterday was a simpler time. I'm just going to wing it a bit to gloss over it, and allow this only at touch range. rather than point blank i think clears it up as a house rule.

Edited June 1, 2020 by 4Acrossisemu

[Shawn Carpenter]

30 minutes ago, 4Acrossisemu said:

Yep, but oh, this opened a can of worms. Questions that have already been ask. 

I can't comment on the rules. I don't actually play BRP. I was just attracted to the topic by its title and thought Mike's answer was reasonable within the context of game rules. 

Guns are tough to write RPG rules for, especially if those rules use hit points. I think you're correct in differentiating between "contact" range and "point-blank" range, though. 

 

[Mike M]

You have to apply context - "what is actually happening" - with the Keeper being the arbiter of what is reasonable in the given situation. The rules are meant to be flexible to cope with numerous possibilities. 

[Shawn Carpenter]

17 hours ago, Mike M said:

You have to apply context - "what is actually happening" - with the Keeper being the arbiter of what is reasonable in the given situation.

Rule Number One for Good Game-Mastering (or at least in the top 5)!

[tendentious]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:44 AM, Mike M said:

Ok - on your action in combat, if you have a handgun in hand, you could fire (point-blank), your opponent's reaction is stand and take it, dive for cover, or try a maneuver to wrestle the gun away/grab it.

I didn't think that fighting back was ever an option vs a firearm under the official rules, even in close combat.

Don't get me wrong - it makes perfect sense to me to grab an attacker's arm, whether they are holding a knife or a gun, to neutralise their weapon. And I'd certainly allow it in play. But I didn't think that it was an option in the rules as written.

[Mike M]

P113 - yes, we do say you cannot fight back against a firearms attack (Point-Blank Range). 

I was getting ahead of myself in my example - the maneuver can't be used in reaction, but can be done on the opponent's turn against the gun wielder. 

But, as I also say, context. I see no reason why a Keeper can't allow a maneuver reaction to a point-blank shot if it makes narrative sense in the context of the situation, if they feel its warranted and moves the story on. But it would be an exception to the rule. 

[tendentious]

A bit off topic, but just a question about disengaging from close combat, as per the rule on pp 109:

Escaping Close Combat - A character can use their action to flee melee combat on their turn in the order of combat, providing they have an escape route and are not physically restrained.

From the use of the word 'flee' I took this rule to mean that if you want to leave the combat scene or transition from combat to chase, then you spend an action. Or is it intended that if you are in close combat with an opponent you can't just step back without spending an action? So a character can't just attack in close combat and then step away so that their ally with a pistol doesn't suffer the 'firing into melee combat' penalty.

[EricW]

Many decades ago at Jujitsu class we had a visit from a blackbelt from Trinidad, who wanted to show us what to do if someone pulled a weapon on us. Trinidad is a dangerous place, so over the years there were plenty of confrontations between members of his dojo and muggers, rapists and other scum.

He said walk with confidence - muggers tend to target frightened people who they think they can intimidate easily.

But if you are attacked, and there is no opportunity to run away, you have to get control of the weapon. All of his techniques focussed on getting control of the weapon.

His advice about a gun was a gun is an overwhelming advantage, even in close combat, but if someone is really close to you, the moment the gun isn't pointed at you, you try to seize control of the gun - if you do nothing else, grab the gun, and stop it from being pointed at you. He also showed us something which *might* work if someone puts a gun to the back of your head, execution style.

Obviously in a game setting you might want to soften the rules a little, but the reality is if someone points a gun at you, and they aren't a complete imbecile, you're at their mercy.

[Mike M]

23 hours ago, tendentious said:

A bit off topic, but just a question about disengaging from close combat, as per the rule on pp 109:

Escaping Close Combat - A character can use their action to flee melee combat on their turn in the order of combat, providing they have an escape route and are not physically restrained.

From the use of the word 'flee' I took this rule to mean that if you want to leave the combat scene or transition from combat to chase, then you spend an action. Or is it intended that if you are in close combat with an opponent you can't just step back without spending an action? So a character can't just attack in close combat and then step away so that their ally with a pistol doesn't suffer the 'firing into melee combat' penalty.

Flee is meant to mean to leave the combat scene - but again - context! The example you give sounds a bit gamey to me (you go hit him and move away and then I'll shoot), which doesn't take account of what the opponent/s are doing. Combat rolls do not equate to a single 'punch' - each roll is equivalent to a series of blows/parries/feints/positioning. So, in my game, your example probably wouldn't be allowed - however, if the context of the actions seemed to make sense in a particular scene, then I might go with it. But, fleeing combat means that - you flee combat (not take a step out and then step back in next round). 

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

On 6/4/2020 at 10:31 AM, EricW said:

[...] the moment the gun isn't pointed at you, you try to seize control of the gun - if you do nothing else, grab the gun, and stop it from being pointed at you. He also showed us something which *might* work if someone puts a gun to the back of your head, execution style.

Obviously in a game setting you might want to soften the rules a little, but the reality is if someone points a gun at you, and they aren't a complete imbecile, you're at their mercy.

In aikido, one principal of handling an opponent holding a weapon in close combat (and retreat is a poor option) is to move yourself not away from the weapon but position yourself oblique to it.

E.G. you're facing an opponent that's holding a knife, gun etc. in their right hand - and isn't actually firing - then move forward and to the side of the weapon, say the left of the attacker. You present your body sideways ... then do your stuff. The attacker has to aim across their body, you are presenting a slightly smaller target and brings them into your reach. Then you concentrate on which direction the ... ah ... dangerous bit of the weapon is pointing. The point or edge of a knife, or the muzzle of the gun. Then, as EricW says, concentrate on commanding the weapon. The crucial thing with a gun is, it's a distance weapon. So in hand-to-hand, you're at a massive disadvantage. Reduce that disadvantage by making a gun a hand-to-hand object so you can get on an even footing.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis