More quastions about combat

[Killaheadz]

Hello, I am trying to be a keeper in CoC 7ed since start of the august. After few first games I've been caught by thoughts that I am doing something wrong so I came here for clarification.
First of all, how many actions do you have during the combat? Rulebook says that round is flexible unit so you can make significant action. But which action is significant?
For example you can reload gun and move, but you cannot shoot after that, but (as I understand right) you can move, grab the knife, move back and attack, both actions would take a round but are they equal? As I understand movement is a free action, running - MOV x5 is free only for melee, but if you run before shooting you will get penalty die. Will you get penalty die if you grab weapon from the floor for example? 
I've tried to find topics about it but I didn't, so I am sorry if I duplicate quastion.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Killaheadz

[tendentious]

Being an investigation-focused, rather than a combat-focused game, CoC doesn't have an exhaustive list of things that are considered "actions", like some other games do. An attack or casting a spell is an action (depending on casting time); reloading more than a single shell/bullet is an action; everything else is negotiable.

My own inclination is to say "yes" to whatever the player is trying to do., such as drawing a weapon or grabbing a weapon off the floor, unless what they're describing seems like a definite "no." If that same weapon on the floor has been kicked under the couch, and now the character has to lie down and fossick around under the couch to get it, then I'd say that is their action for the round.

But I don't see a problem with adding a penalty die to their action if you're on the fence about whether or not something they're trying to do should affect the outcome. Drawing a gun from a holster? Probably not. Running and grabbing a weapon from the floor before attacking? Penalty die.

[Killaheadz]

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Edited September 16, 2020 by Killaheadz

[Killaheadz]

3 hours ago, tendentious said:

Being an investigation-focused, rather than a combat-focused game, CoC doesn't have an exhaustive list of things that are considered "actions", like some other games do. An attack or casting a spell is an action (depending on casting time); reloading more than a single shell/bullet is an action; everything else is negotiable.

My own inclination is to say "yes" to whatever the player is trying to do., such as drawing a weapon or grabbing a weapon off the floor, unless what they're describing seems like a definite "no." If that same weapon on the floor has been kicked under the couch, and now the character has to lie down and fossick around under the couch to get it, then I'd say that is their action for the round.

But I don't see a problem with adding a penalty die to their action if you're on the fence about whether or not something they're trying to do should affect the outcome. Drawing a gun from a holster? Probably not. Running and grabbing a weapon from the floor before attacking? Penalty die.

That's a little sad, that there is no list of actions. The idea of allowing and not allowing just by common sense is not always great atleast for me. Sometimes I was in situations where 2 situations which looks obviously for "yes" and "no"  lately become unfair for one of the players. It's hard to proof for both sides that their situations are equal, ofc you can say: I am keeper, I am the law here, but loyalty of players will fall down.
But okay, I guess I have to create as home rule kind of classification of actions.
Thank you anyway)

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Killaheadz

[Mike M]

Please see Page 102 of the Keeper Rulebook. There is a list. See The Combat Round.

[Killaheadz]

Well, thanks for answers. I have a lot of thoughts, I guess I would try to make combat more storytelling and then judge about rolls and difficulty. It's just hard to make rules for yourself to make judging fair for every player, so I was trying to find easy formula for it)
Should I close the topic somehow? 

[Mike M]

No need to close the thread - I'm sure there are others who would be happy to give their opinion on what constitutes an action in a combat round. The action rules are meant to elastic - you get to do one meaningful thing - which is meant to help narrative play and storytelling. 

 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Killaheadz said:

Well, thanks for answers. I have a lot of thoughts, I guess I would try to make combat more storytelling and then judge about rolls and difficulty. It's just hard to make rules for yourself to make judging fair for every player, so I was trying to find easy formula for it)
 

There is nothing wrong with making some sort of list, but ultimately it will come down to the Gamemaster's decision as just how much a given character can accomplish in a round. It might help to know that in previous editions of CoC, as well as in most related RPGs, a combat round was approximately twelve seconds in duration. So you could use that to help determine if something constitutes a "significant action". Drawing a knife isn't "significant" in game terms because it's something most people can do in a second of two. Reloading a weapon is, because it would take several seconds to open up and relaod the weapon, or even to release and replace the magazine with another one. Attacking with a weapon would be "significant", either due to the time it would take to maneuver around, or to bring the weapon to bear on a target and fire in the right direction. 

[klecser]

19 hours ago, Killaheadz said:

Well, thanks for answers. I have a lot of thoughts, I guess I would try to make combat more storytelling and then judge about rolls and difficulty. It's just hard to make rules for yourself to make judging fair for every player, so I was trying to find easy formula for it)
Should I close the topic somehow? 

Yep, Keeping is difficult sometimes. That's my response. And I'm not trying to be sardonic there. You have to make choices to adjudicate as fairly as you can. One technique to consider is simply communication with your players. Ideally, before a session in which you know things may come up in the future, talk to your players about how they think particular mechanics should be house-ruled. If something happens that was not discussed in advance, have a debrief and ask what they thought. Better yet, there is nothing wrong with hitting PAUSE and saying: "Hey, let's take a quick break to discuss what we think is fair here, because I'm getting the feeling that there might be a difference in perspective here."

[Killaheadz]

I am really thankfull for all advices, after a day I will run a game. I've made some notes so we will play differently than before, later I can share my thoughts and results. I hope it may help other new keepers)

[ragr]

We had the dropped gun situation in my Masks game on Saturday. A cultist had felled an investigator with a spell and the gun was lying next to their prone body. Another investigator, now in mortal peril, wanted to grab the gun from the floor and desperately shoot the cultist. It didn't feel dramatically significant to just let them grab the gun as an action, but allowing them to pick the gun up and fire felt too pulpy. In the end I offered them the choice to either grab the gun and fire off shots with a penalty die or to grab the gun as an action and then be free to fire next round without the penalty. In the end they took the option of the penalty die, added a further penalty die by shooting three shots but received one bonus die for being at point blank range. This added a lovely range of dramatic choices for both myself and the player. The game doesn't need complex actions listed that cover every eventuality, just a touch of negotiation to go with some relatively simple mechanical risks and benefits.