Orlanthi Clans in Esvular?

[10baseT]

Do we know the names of any of the clans? The clans that went up into Sartar from Heortland had to originate from those that stayed behind, who are they? Then the rural areas are more Orlanthi than Aeolian. As the wars in Sartar sent refugees south, i think it's possible some where adopted into those clans instead of going to Refuge... or maybe those clans wanted nothing to do with them (I only say that as the descriptions of Refuge mention it's filled with refugees from the north.)

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

Do we know the names of any of the clans?

My working assumption is that many/most of the Heortling clans have two names:  one associated with a Founder or Hero (e.g. Orshanti), and one associated with their primary village/clan center (e.g. Bullpen, Milran).  In some cases, the village name is that of the Founder/Hero.  Even the Heortling clans that have moved south into Esvular probably maintain this tradition, even if now ruled by an Esvulari talar.  The Esvulari clans likely follow a different pattern as they will have distinct noble clans and wizard clans (which do not intermarry), as well as the commoner clans which may retain Heortling characteristics, or possible adopt/ape the practices of nobles or wizards.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My working assumption is that many/most of the Heortling clans have two names:  one associated with a Founder or Hero (e.g. Orshanti), and one associated with their primary village/clan center (e.g. Bullpen, Milran). 

Well, the Orlanthi of Dorastor are named after their Founders, so that could well be the case elsewhere.

[Joerg]

 

10 hours ago, 10baseT said:

Do we know the names of any of the clans?

I don't think I have seen any clan name for Heortland south of the Marzeel River other than the Orshanti clan from which Colymar hailed in any somewhat official source.

10 hours ago, 10baseT said:

The clans that went up into Sartar from Heortland had to originate from those that stayed behind, who are they?

Heortland has a total population of half a milllion humans, most of them Orlanthi. Those who stayed behind were pretty much the same folk as those who left, except for more tolerance towards the new overlords (Belintar and his governors). The migration into Dragon Pass happened mostly within two generations - afterwards the opportunity to claim previously unclaimed lands or to drive out only weakly established earlier settlers had gone.

There was a wave of immigration of urban folk into the new cities of Sartar between 1470 and 1500, and probably some form of exchange of guild craftspeople between the two regions afterwards, but nothing the size of the initial migrations.

If the Sartarite clans can be classified as Hendriki, Light Orlanthi, Axe Orlanthi, Dark Orlanthi, etc., then so can the clans in Heortland. And that also allows to work out their history with the Foreigner Laws of Aventus, which did find documented application as late as the onset of the Adjustment Wars, half a millennium after they first were formulated after the eviction of the Bright Empire. 

Belintar or some of his governor kings may have attempted to score favor by abolishing these laws, but that would have created some bad will in those who had profited from those laws earlier on. As a good portion of these had already joined the Volsaxi rebels against Belintar, probably not a big deal.

 

10 hours ago, 10baseT said:

Then the rural areas are more Orlanthi than Aeolian. As the wars in Sartar sent refugees south, i think it's possible some where adopted into those clans instead of going to Refuge... or maybe those clans wanted nothing to do with them (I only say that as the descriptions of Refuge mention it's filled with refugees from the north.)

It is unclear when there would have been waves of emigration from Sartar. There certainly were occasions when lots of people were forced into exile, but that probably meant they joined the retinues of local leaders as personal followers rather than regular clan members, at least initially.

Some may have brought some of their family after they had achieved a comfortable position.

The masses in Refuge may have been the result of the wave of conquests in Heortland - starting with the Malkonwal conquest, followed by the Lunar conquest under Fazzur. The Windstop hit Refuge as much as the rest of Heortland, so no refugee movement from that event, but the Chaos eruption from the Footprint bought by the Lunars under Tatius to keep Broyan out of his hair will have caused the most recent wave of refugees.

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My working assumption is that many/most of the Heortling clans have two names:  one associated with a Founder or Hero (e.g. Orshanti), and one associated with their primary village/clan center (e.g. Bullpen, Milran).  In some cases, the village name is that of the Founder/Hero.  Even the Heortling clans that have moved south into Esvular probably maintain this tradition, even if now ruled by an Esvulari talar.  The Esvulari clans likely follow a different pattern as they will have distinct noble clans and wizard clans (which do not intermarry), as well as the commoner clans which may retain Heortling characteristics, or possible adopt/ape the practices of nobles or wizards.

There aren't enough Esvulari Talars or Zzaburi to form more than four or five separate, undersized clans in total. With a total of 50,000 Esvulari, there are at best 3000 each of the Talar and the Zzabur caste each - just enough to form a triaty each, if they form separate clans.

I thought that the llineage problems of the Kohanim would be something of a parallel to the problems of Aeolian talar and zzabur caste families.

 

A different solution would be to allow isolated talar and zzabur bloodlines in all Esvulari clans, with the talar bloodlines providing the chiefs and the zzabur bloodlines the (sorcerous? or also theist?) priesthood. The non-Aeolian clans of those lands would have "commoner chiefs" (strictly Heortling nobility, not caste-dependent) and might be less prestigious or eligible to provide higher ups than the Aeolian clans.

Some traditional Orlanthi clans might have adopted talar and zzabur bloodlines into their clans to fit into the Aeolian network.

 

I can think of cases of personal followers of a chief or noble taking on an office in their host clan for a while, but usually they would be encouraged to join the clan fully (whether by marriage or formal adoption). Getting your chief priests from a temple not controlled by your clan sets an ugly and dangerous precedent which may result in control over your clan wealth redistributed to that temple.