Manirian Scratchpad V: Kaxtor & Kaxtorplose

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, Nevermet said:

How does Entruli mythology differ from Heortling / Sartarite mythology?

Yes, those original differences have been lessened since time began (the Theyalan promotion of Lightbringer mythology, Arkat's brand of Orlanthi, various cultural imports from Esrolia over the centuries)... but the land of Maniria will remember different experiences than Kirofinela and the Holy Country.  If fact, maybe that will be my next scratchpad: mythical Maniria and how the land has a different mythical trajectory than, say, the Holy COuntry, Dragon Pass, or Prax.

The Entruli are an older group of Orlanthi than the Vingkotlings who turned into Heortlings. I am not quite clear whether Entru was a Storm Rune leader or an older Earth Rune (or maybe Fire Rune) leader, an Earth Walker, a minor version of Tada.

Another difference is their early contact with the Seshnegi during the reign of the Serpent Kings, which had one of the heirs sailing east on a Waertagi ship and bringing back a wife (presumably an Earth Priestess) and a serpent-legged son. There aren't that many people eligible for that contact. I don't think that the people of Tanisor would have been eligible, as they were in close contact, allied with or even ruled by Pendali lion lords. The next place where there would have been humans would be the Entruli, who we know had Waertagi contacts at least somewhat later in the Dawn Age when some were transported to Jrustela and possibly directly to Umathela.

While Lalmor of the Vathmai brought Heortling (or rather Hantrafali) methods of sacrifice to the Entruli, contact with the Pralori (as per Jeff) and with the Seshnegi and Waertagi would have been a strong influence to make them different.

Later on, they also integrated Basmoli/Pendali heirs as (Orlanthi) nobility - the lineage Greymane stems from.

 

I was about to ask you since when there were Malkioni in Kaxtorplose - after all the Archduchy of Slontos was formed only after the start of the Return to Rightness Crusade. Missing Lands mentions the inclusion of the Archduchy into the Middle Sea Empire.

20 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder if Maniria overlapped with mythical Envorela. In that case, the same wood-working, Earth-centric gods (though not necessary Earth gods themselves, elemntally) that we find among the Vingkotlings may have had some influences there: Durev, Orane, Orstan, (Barntar?) etc. The Durevings did have a prior existance as an independent people prior to being assimilated into the Vingkotling confederation, or so we are led to believe at least. There's perhaps something to be said for an interaction between the Dureving Mini-Pantheon and the Aldryami as well. (Durev was carved from wood and magically turned alive by his woodcarver father, amongst other things). Nevermind the whole Mraloti complex tied into all of this and the native Cthonic/Earth powers.

To me, the Dureving Downland Migration would have been in the Golden Age, probably just after the initiation of Orlanth. Things start with Orlanth the Wild taking the measure of the land, and getting distracted by fishing.

 

20 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Also there are the Diroti, who arrived after the Flooding of Envorela, iirc, and so would have added something, but you've probably taken that into account already. It would be interesting to see if there's some interplay here with the myth of Heler and Aroka. Sovereign Heler raided the Air and such. The Diroti were Air gods who raided by boat. There's a weird parallel/contrast there, I don't know. It just intuitively feels like they would've interacted at some point, but maybe I'm seeing ties where there are none. 

I wonder how much difference there is between the Diroti and the Helerings. These Diroti are obviously not heirs of the western Sofala, as those had been killed by the Seabird Army. (Making the Seabird Army the least likely ally for the Diroti of Choralinthor Bay, in my book)

 

20 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The two above are things Maniria would at least partially share with Kethaeal/Kerofinela, though, and it would probably be hard to distinguish exactly what were native beliefs at the Dawn (or pre-Dawn mythic events, same difference) and what were later Lightbringer imports.

 

 

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

My current thesis, which I have not elaborated at all, let alone post here, is that Entrulings were a group of Orlanthi lead by a very different son of Orlanth than Vingkot.

We may have a name - Drorgalar Orlanthsson. Harand Boardick's wife Urgkronika was his daughter. (King of Sartar p.63)

 

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

And here we go

• Entrulings were at least 3 groups:
  • People who followed Entru & Ketha west
  • Former Hsunchen,
    • Explains Manirian tendency to have individual animal associations
    • I strongly suspect that the Enrtulings / Harandings tell a very different 
  • Remnants of the Helerings after Heler was devoured. 
    • The single most important Temple to Heler in Genertela is in Maniria, but there was never a "Helering" people since the Dawn
  • I could believe Durevings too, but I haven't explored that

The Helerings sound like a later arrival than the original migration of Entru and Ketha, which I place as significantly before the Flood. (Harand and the Lawstaff story are significantly after the Flood. It looks like the ancestors of Harand and later Aram ya Udram returned eastward after those lands had been recovered from the Sea covering parts of Halikiv, Arstola, and apparently the lands just east of Skanthiland (unless the Skanthi had to evacuate until the sea had been overcome).

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

• Entrulings built fewer fortresses than, say, the Esrolians
  • They travelled light, hid from the forces of Chaos, and looked for allies where they could.  
    • Hooafting somehow managed to make a network of secret campsites that Chaos could not find.
  • I want to say that Crazy Uncle Kolat was much more relevant in Maniria than in Esrolian & Hoertling lands, but I am unsure how justifiable this is.

If the Entruli have a strong ancestral Earth connection (and Ketha alone would provide that already), having hiding places with cyclopean walls (featuring polygonal blocks that would return to their positions even after an Earthquake shaking them) may be possible.

We know that Gouger destroyed three cities before Aram ya Udram caught up with it. Some of those may have been in Entruli lands. The Caladraland range activity may have done in other such places.

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

• Elder Races
  • The Aldryami had a complicated relationship with the humans, but through Ketha deals could be reached.
  • I have been working off the assumption there was no Trolls in Maniria at the Dawn

None other than spillunder from Halikiv, that would have somehow bypassed the Arstolans, probably through Haranding lands.

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

• • As per the Dragonewt thread, I've become persuaded there was probably an ancient nest in Ryzel that the 1st Age Newts wanted to reconnect with and awaken.

Or some other site of draconic energies.

 

 

[Nevermet]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

We may have a name - Drorgalar Orlanthsson. Harand Boardick's wife Urgkronika was his daughter. (King of Sartar p.63)

 

It never occurred to me to equate Entru with Drorgalar, but that could work!

 

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Helerings sound like a later arrival than the original migration of Entru and Ketha, which I place as significantly before the Flood. (Harand and the Lawstaff story are significantly after the Flood. It looks like the ancestors of Harand and later Aram ya Udram returned eastward after those lands had been recovered from the Sea covering parts of Halikiv, Arstola, and apparently the lands just east of Skanthiland (unless the Skanthi had to evacuate until the sea had been overcome).

I completely agree with this.  I'm not sure, but I think that IMG, Aram is descended from the son Harand gave to the Uz.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was about to ask you since when there were Malkioni in Kaxtorplose - after all the Archduchy of Slontos was formed only after the start of the Return to Rightness Crusade. Missing Lands mentions the inclusion of the Archduchy into the Middle Sea Empire.

That's a good question that I don't think the texts fully answer. Middle Sea Empire states that the fact there is an Archduke of Slontos suggests there were Malkioni Talars in Slontos before its incorporation into the MSE.

IMG, when Veakmal re-conquered the Herlaning Kingdoms, he brought both western sorcery and "Serpent King Hrestolism," something that would be rather compatible a Earth demigod born during time such as Kaxtor. I currently suspect that the Olodo were Slontans fleeing the Gbaji Wars, and the Waertagi were partly willing to help because the Olodo were at least somewhat "Western".

 

I'm honestly unsure if all this holds water, but it is where I currently am.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Nevermet said:

It never occurred to me to equate Entru with Drorgalar, but that could work!

I didn't mean that - I view Entru more as a chthonic guy, a local Tada, or perhaps mildly stormy. No more so than Durev, though.

Drorgalar sounds like a later by-blow of Orlanth, possibly around the time Vingkot was conceived, too, or during his self-imposed exile after being unable to solve his kinstrife case.

 

9 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I completely agree with this.  I'm not sure, but I think that IMG, Aram is descended from the son Harand gave to the Uz.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was from a different branch of the Entruli than Harand. Perhaps a descendant of Drorgalar through another child than Urgkronika.

 

[Nevermet]

More on Second Age Kaxtorplose

First, a timeline:

Quote

• 740: The Autarchy in Ralios is destroyed. (GtG: 374)
• 740: Beginning of the Clanking City in God Forgot (GtG: 236)
• 758: Middle Sea Aliance joins the war against the Lopers (GtG: 352)
  • This is Post-Abiding Book, post-"Real Reassessment" Middle Sea Empire (MSE: 19)
  • This is 3 years into the reign of Orvansfal (MSE: 20)
  • Immanent Mastery School takes off (MSE: 20)
• 780: Scholar Riots against the Malkioni in Nochet (GtG: 236)
• 795 - 842: Middle Sea wars with Esrolia
• 800: Davaka the Dealer begins the GL practice of forcibly taking over pagan sacred sites for research (MSE: 44)
• 805: Lopers fully defeated, Slontos fully absorbed into the Middle Sea Empire (GtG: 352)
• 813: "Valastos with Seven Pens issues Warnings about Spirit Plane Ecology" (MSE: 39)
• 813: Zistorites founded (MSE: 48)
• Circa 815: Zistorites make ornithopters based on the Iron vrok (MSE: 48)
• 818: The Hurricane Year (MSE 23)
• 821: 5th Ecclesiastical Council (MSE: 23)
  • Brithos sinks a massive fleet
• 823: The Reformed Sorcerers Alliance (THE Godlearners) support Suilmant as Emperor (MSE: 23)
• 842: Krajlki War, failed invasion of the Shadowlands (MSE: 24)
  • Leads to the rise of the Villbaine of Wesluk as the hereditary ruler of a centrally controlled Slontos (GtG: 351)
• 845: Founding of the God Learner Collective (MSE: 24)
• 849: Goddess Switch (GtG: 352)
• 850: Heroquesters begin bringing unique items back from heroquests (MSE: 43)
• circa 860: Zistorism spreads (MSE: 25)
• circa 890: Slag Movement tries to weaponize earth against Krjalki (MSE: 890)
• Circa 905: Consquering of Ralios (MSE: 27)
• 907: 2-year Winter (GtG: 237)
• 917: Fall of Clanking CIty (MSE: 27)
• 925: Ice Summer of Ralios 9MSE: 28)
• Circa 934: The Book of Secrets leaves Jrustela for Slontos, ending at the Trickster College of Thanor (MSE: 46)
• 935: The Closing (GtG: 352)
  • Increasing independence of Slontos from Seshnela due to difficulty getting there (MSE: 28)
• Late 900s: Secrets Riots break out as various "heretics" demand the Book of Secrets is opened to save the people (MSE: 46)
• Circa 950: Makanists vs. Malkioneranists (MSE: 29)
• Circa 990: Archduke of Slontos considered by political elite of Slontos to be the "de facto" Emperor of Land & Sea "after the wizards had determined that the Seshnelan dynasty had abdicated the title (MSE: 46)
• Circa 1000: Ralios unites against MSE Rule (MSE: 30)
• Early 1000s: Presence of the Book of Secrets is sufficient to end the Ramalian Peasant Rebellion, the Siege of Eenlor, and defend Jadnor (MSE: 46)
• Circa 1000: Yomili creates old-style Makanist New Church of the Book with Emperor's support (MSE: 31)
• 1049: The Reversal of God World, Spirit Plane, & Hero Planes (MSE: 45)
• 1040: Archduke of Slontos, against wishes of his Bishops - orders the Book of Secrets is opened
• 1050: "The Goddess of Slontos rolled over." (GtG: 352) / Devastation of the Vent (GtG: 237)
  • Alternative: Book of Secrets is opened after 10 years, seen to be empty, and then the earthquake begins

It seems we can break Slontos' experience with the Middle Sea Alliance & Empire Second Age history into 4 phases:

1. The Loper Wars with the Middle Sea Alliance (758-805)
2. Early Archduchy (805 - 850) 
3. "Godlearner" Archduchy (850 - 935)
4. Decline of the Archduchy (935 - 1050)

 

Middle Sea Alliance Period

I would argue Kaxtorplose was at its most influential during the Loper Wars, before Slontos was fully absorbed into the Middle Sea Empire.  It was a long standing polity that was well defended.  The Lopers may have attacked trade to and from Kaxtorplose, but I feel they would have preferred to attack cities that did not have divine walls.  

 

Early Archudchy Period

Kaxtorplose, with its Ylream-like history, would not have gotten along with the various Godlearner sects.  While bringing Slontos into the Middle Sea Empire and the eradication of the Lopers in Slontos coincides with the rise of the Emanationists, it seems that Slontos was primarily a playground for the Reconstructionists and Zistorites.  The defeat of the Lopers comes just before the founding of the Zistorites, who also were instrumental in the attacks on the Esrolia & EEWF. 

 

Godlearner Period

During this span, Slontos sees the Goddess Switch, the founding of the Trickster College, and the Book of Secrets was taken to Slontos rather than Seshnela.  As I think about it more, Kaxtorplose was likely mined for arcana knowledge constantly, with any traditionalists who resisted such efforts bluntly removed, possibly while being accused of various heresies (Stygianism and Inflamerism come to mind as possibilities).

There was likely a triumphalist attitude throughout this period, until the fall of Zistorela in 917.  That would have been demoralizing for the dominant ideologies of Slontos.  And then 20 years later, the Closing comes to Slontos.

 

Decline of the Archduchy

Its clear that things just get uglier and weirder for a century until Slontos sinks.  Riots, rebellions, heresies... things are falling apart.  IMG the Archduchy at this point is increasingly militaristic and brutal.  I find it interesting that during this Period, the Archduke is viewed as the heir to the Emperor of Land and Sea.  The rulers of Slontos did not experience regret the same way the rulers of Seshnela did.

I also find it interesting that there are both riots by people who want the Book of Secrets to be used, and then evidence that the Book of Secrets is used.  Also, regarding the story of the Book of Secrets in MSE, I suspect the Book of Secrets really did exist.  However, a great deal of that story is allegorical, making the Book of Secrets a physical symbol of the hubris of the Godlearners.  The story culminates with the Book being used to save Slontos, only to be revealed as "form without substance", leading to the Flood of Slontos and the Devastation of the Vent.  Trying to use Godlearner sorcery after the Great Reversal of the planes was apparently a bad, bad idea.

During this period, I suspect that Kaxtorplose became a hotbed of opposition to the religion of Malkioneranism.  The city-Temple of Kaxtorplose, with its history and library, would have been a natural rallying point for non-Godlearner Malkioni religion.

 

 

This post was mostly vanity, an excuse for me to construct the Slontan timeline.  It helps me appreciate just how broken Godlearner ideology became, and Slontos paid for it dearly.  But the Temple-City of Kaxtor, Earthson and Builder, managed to survive.  

[Nevermet]

I began to worry I was running out of Manirian rants, but looking at my to do list for future Scratchpads, that is not the case:

1. Ramalia & the Mraloti
2. Entru and Maniria Before the Dawn
3. Caratan
4. Handra
5. The Trader Princes: Now vs. their height before the Opening
6. The Caladrans
7. Campaign & adventure hooks
8. And... though I dread it.... the legacy of the Zaranistangi and the Blue Moon in Maniria

Edited March 27, 2021 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

Last post for Kaxtorplose for a while.

 

While I like the idea of taking brutalism to be the expression of the more fantastical elements of Kaxtorplose, my current visual inspiration for Kaxtorplose in a more historical form is the bronze age Nuragic civilization, especially  the ruins of Su Nuraxi: