Manirian Scratchpad V: Kaxtor & Kaxtorplose

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

when do the Lopers show up in Prax for the first time

They've been right next door in Teshnos since the Storm Age. I think the first historical contact with the Praxians was in the Dawn Age.

[Nevermet]

Work has got me crushed until the end of the weekend, so I haven't been writing as much as I would like.

This post: The general Area of Kaxtorplose

The western New Coast, sometimes called the Ryzel coast is a narrow stretch of land between the Mournsea to the south and Ryzel hills to the North.  Vestiges of its once gently rolling hills can still be seen in the landscape, though it is not scarred with abrupt gorges and cliffs that emerge when Slontos sank.  While the vegetation and fauna here are abundant in the western New Coast, it lacks the deep forests that inland Maniria is famous for.

 

Cliffs of Ryzel (Wiki Commons pic of Étretat cliffs)

 

Part of it is claimed and fanatically guarded by the Dragonewts, ranging from the ruins of Gualal west to the ruins of Hermat, until the beginning of the New Fens. Adventurers of various stripes have attempted to plunder the Godlearner ruins of the Ryzel coast for lost magic.  Most never return.  Some are killed by the Dragonewts, and some are killed by other, darker things that inhabit the ruins.

 

The eastern half of the Ryzel coast goes to the Tigrionor River.  The Dragonewts have allowed humans to live here as long as they do not enter the hills.  These lands are occupied by the Uliover tribe.  A strongly Helering tribe, they were some of the first Kotori to explore west and south after the drowning of the Godlearners.  They also discovered a single city, fully intact, named Kaxtorplose.  It took a generation or two, but eventually the Uliover and Kaxtorplose forged a cautious agreement.  By the middle of the 3^rd Age, the Uliover relationship with Kaxtorplose has become similar to the way other Manirian tribes relate to Trader Prince cities: The “Malkioni”of the city serve as arbiters in tribal politics and offer artisan goods.  In exchange, the Uliover offer raw materials, food, and military support.  Unlike the Jubali up the Tigrionor River, the Uliover live in constant fear of the Dragonewts, who they occasionally called “Arokans,” associating them with the myths of Heler.  The Temple Citizens of Kaxtorplose likewise fear and respect the Newts of Ryzel.

 

Since the Opening, Kaxtorplose has found itself a minor port in the Mournsea, receiving less traffic than either Fay Jee or Handra.  The Kaxtori are frankly fine with this as they tend toward isolationism, and they have outsourced much of the port activity to the Uliover, who operate the Harborcliff Docks a short distance from Kaxtoplose.

 

The Temple City of Kaxtorplose

A marvel of engineering, Kaxtorplose is an intricate walled temple complex.  Windows are placed for both defense and light, there is a complex plumbing / irrigation system throughout the complex, and there are multiple gardens on the rooftops.  A visitor will almost feel guided to the core locations such as the Gate of Welcome, and the Gallery of the Mica Altar.  Trying to find other fables locations within the Temple-City such as the Hostage Tree or the Deep Tomb tends to end in people being hopelessly lost. There are tales of especially unworthy foreigners starving to death as the wander the endless halls.  Such tales, to be sure, are exaggerations, though more than a few people have noted that, at the least, one’s spatial awareness is somehow impaired in parts of Kaxtorplose.

 

3^rd Age Kaxtorplose is a deeply insular, traditionalist place.  Its citizenry is absolutely convinced that the heroic works of Kaxtor have allowed Kaxtorplose to endure Palangio, the Dragonewts, the Godlearners, and the Flood.  They are not sure what the Hero Wars will bring, and they are worried as all are for dark times.  However, it is almost assumed that the Holy City will endure.  

 

The Deep Tomb of Kaxtorplose.  Note the Serpent iconography and the Law Run (Credit: an early design illustration for "Alien")

 

Gallery of the Mica Altar (Credit: Brutalist church 'St. Rita' by Leon Stynen and Paul de Meyer in Harelbeke, Belgium (1966)
[My visual understanding of Kaxtorplose is very much "fantasy brutalism." I have not seen a picture worthy of the walls that can resist the Iron Vrok yet. Such walls, built by the demigod son of Esrola, should not really look like walls built by mortals. IMG, the holy structures of Kaxtorplose are alien things.  the walls and inner sanctum are solid, seamless rock, creating an effect similar to the poured concrete of brutalist architecture.]

[Nevermet]

What did Kaxtor do?  How did he die?

I don't have a lot of time to expound on this, but I view Kaxtor as a powerful hero or demigod.  He is Earthson and he is The Builder.

Using knowledge, rune magic, and wizardry, he became a master architect and urban planner.  Sculpting the earth to allow prosperity.  His notions of ethics and social structure were organized around building according to "Right Structure", an applied understanding of matter and energy.

He used magic to erect massive walls to protect his home from Palangio.  During the siege and before Arkat landed, Palangio almost breached the walls and took the temple.  To prevent this from happening, Kaxtor sacrificed himself by imbuing his very essence into the walls of the city (possible parallels with Ylream being absorbed by the earth).  

There are stories of the walls and halls of Kaxtorplose still being haunted to this day by Kaxtor, though these are usually discounted as highly unlikely./

[Nevermet]

Also, sorry I'm being a bad community member... I will be more active elsewhere on the forum by the end of the weekend

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Nevermet said:

He used magic to erect massive walls to protect his home from Palangio.  During the siege and before Arkat landed, Palangio almost breached the walls and took the temple.  To prevent this from happening, Kaxtor sacrificed himself by imbuing his very essence into the walls of the city (possible parallels with Ylream being absorbed by the earth).  

 

Ooooohhh... Regenerating walls, anyone?

[Nevermet]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ooooohhh... Regenerating walls, anyone?

City walls with the Earth Rune and Life Rune.

I need to think through more about exactly how much Kaxtor's consciousness remained imbued in the walls. My current thinking is something remained, but most of it was consumed while protecting the city from the Flood.  Also, whatever remained is explicitly not Kaxtor himself, but rather an echo or copy.  

Edited March 19, 2021 by Nevermet

[Joerg]

Perhaps his passion remained, rather than his consciousness?

[scott-martin]

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

He is Earthson and he is The Builder.

This is a great line. Reminds me of the people who knew how to work with Stone when Stone was alive . . . or of the Stonepipe Hollow culture. 

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Perhaps his passion remained, rather than his consciousness?

Top concept of the season!

[Nevermet]

The walls have memory and emotion, but not consciousness.

 

I'm now imagining the walls "liking" it when people play Kaxtor's favourite music, and a few times a year large raptors are found dead just out of the city walls.

 

This also creates a constant Pagan offering opportunity that a lot of Malkioni are gonna haaaaaaate

[Nevermet]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is a great line. Reminds me of the people who knew how to work with Stone when Stone was alive . . . or of the Stonepipe Hollow culture

Thanks

And I know snakepipe hollow, but not Stonepipe Hollow.  Help a guy out?

[scott-martin]

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

And I know snakepipe hollow, but not Stonepipe Hollow.  Help a guy out?

Freudian slip with all the talk about the Hollow being associated with the Hard Earth / Skyfall culture. 

Maybe a fertile one though!!

[Nevermet]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Freudian slip with all the talk about the Hollow being associated with the Hard Earth / Skyfall culture. 

Maybe a fertile one though!!

Now I need to read up on that.... darn you for giving me work I want to do! 😉 

 

Also, I really need to sit down at some point and try to argue a horrible question: 

How does Entruli mythology differ from Heortling / Sartarite mythology?

Yes, those original differences have been lessened since time began (the Theyalan promotion of Lightbringer mythology, Arkat's brand of Orlanthi, various cultural imports from Esrolia over the centuries)... but the land of Maniria will remember different experiences than Kirofinela and the Holy Country.  If fact, maybe that will be my next scratchpad: mythical Maniria and how the land has a different mythical trajectory than, say, the Holy COuntry, Dragon Pass, or Prax.

[Nevermet]

Life in Third Age Kaxtorplose

I need to read a lot, mostly outside of gaming books, before I'm happy with this section, but here we go.

 

Unlike most of Maniria, the society within the Holy City maintains all four castes of Malkion. 

 

Talars

The head Talar of Kaxtorplose is known as The Advocate of Kaxtorplose.  Originally a title from the Middle Sea Empire's civilian bureaucracy, the Advocate is the final authority, though they are bound by the Law of Kaxtor and are not a tyrant.  Other Talars are the Officers of the Advocate.  Officers are usuallygranted authority over a location: a wing of the temple complex, the gardens, the walls, etc.  The High Officers are in charge of the military, the land, and diplomacy with the outside world.  The Advocate is technically the High Officer of the People of Kaxtor.  Together, the four Officers are the sides of the Earth Rune.

 

Zzaburi

The Zzaburi of Kaxtorplose are known as builders.  They are the ceremonial keepers of knowledge of Kaxtorplose, and they control the Library of the Root and the other sacred rooms within Kaxtorplose.  The hallmark of their philosophy is reinforcement: correct knowledge of the cosmos will reinforce correct social struture, ethics, and so on.  Tension between knowledges or aspects of life suggest error that must be rooted out.  Truth , life, justice, and law are like four walls of a house that shall endure for all time.  They are aware of illumination and oppose it on theological grounds: though individuals like Arkat may thrive beyond truth, a society cannot be built upon illumination and survive.  The fact that Arkat fell, Nysalor died, and the EWF was annihilated is proof of their view.  In principle, the Builders are willing to acknowledge they do not know the full truth, but illuminated notions of contradiction and moving beyond both truth and illusion are anathema to them.

 

Horali

The Horali of Kaxtorplose are simply the Defenders.  Training for war begins at a young age, and they are indoctrinated to believe the goal of a soldiers life is to have their name etched on The Walls so that Kaxtor will know and remember them and sing their praises to the Invisible God.  The martial arts of Kaxtori Army are deeply analytic, and their tomes on correct tactics and fighting are seen as deeply confusing if not silly to the Maniran tribesmen around them.  However, the Hevduran Sword Sages of Esrolia have recently discovered them, and find them absolutely fascinating.  This does not improve the reputation of Kaxtori martial training among the Manirians.  Kaxtori tactics excel at defense, and they are often viewed dismissively as rejecting glory, and being overly intellectual.  That being said, there is a reason why the Uliover say, "An armed Kaxtori in a hallway is just another wall."

 

Dronars

As with most Malkioni societies, the vast majority of the population Within the Walls are Dronars, locally called the Hands.  They are hunters, farmers, artisans, and craftspeople.  They maintain the temple-city in all its glory, and are proud of doing so.  There are a number of ways that the Hands can make formal petitions for action from the Advocate, and there are many ways their opinions are allowed to be voiced to their direct Officer.  Outside of those specific moments, however, speaking out of turn is considered a serious breech, and may result in a Zzaburi meeting with discuss the "rebuilding of virtue."

 

Note on Gender: 

People of all genders are found within all castes, though most caste positions are gendered in different ways.  Among the Defenders, for example, the cavalry and the archers are typically where one finds women, while heavy infantry are the most masculine occupation among the Defenders.  

 

Caste Mobility: 

Officially, castes are hereditary.  However, twice a year there are Congregations, where the entire city comes together for formal business.  During these meetings, people may petition to have their castes change.  There are many reasons for this: someone may be seen as having great promise in another caste, someone may request a temporary reassignment for personal reasons, or as part of penance after being found guilty of a crime.  It is not particularly strange for someone to have moved between castes once or twice over the course of their lives, though the details of their case dictate whether this is a source of pride or shame.  The builders have final approval on a caste change.

 

Knights: 

Knights, or men-of-all in the Hrestoli tradition, are exceedingly uncommon but are technically allowed within the Law of Kaxtor.  Such people have demonstrated an unusual degree of flexibility, and they are known within Kaxtorplose as emissaries, as they require the least purification rituals after dealing with Jabberers (foreigners). Kaxtor is considered the First Emissary, showing the true wisdom of the Invisible God to morals of his time.  It is a closely kept secret of the Builders of Kaxtorplose, but Emissaries are the only Kaxtori who are ever allowed to remain Within the Walls after Illumination.  Such an event requires a large degree of measurement, however, to ensure they are not "of the Vrok".

[Nevermet]

I'm trying very hard to create a society that is interesting, compatible with Glorantha (especially a Malkioni community with roots in a version of Orlanthi / Esrolian culture), and also plausible.  I want to avoid as much handwaiving as possible in the social structure.  I want it to make sense, I want it to be imperfect, I want to allow for sincerity, and I want it to be fun to game with.

 

Please let me know if you don't think something works, even if you don't have immediate suggestions on a solution.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

How does Entruli mythology differ from Heortling / Sartarite mythology?

Yes, those original differences have been lessened since time began (the Theyalan promotion of Lightbringer mythology, Arkat's brand of Orlanthi, various cultural imports from Esrolia over the centuries)... but the land of Maniria will remember different experiences than Kirofinela and the Holy Country.  If fact, maybe that will be my next scratchpad: mythical Maniria and how the land has a different mythical trajectory than, say, the Holy COuntry, Dragon Pass, or Prax.

Well, it's the Nightwood, isn't it?  The place where all the brown elves of Arstola went to sleep.  And where Orlanth passed through after beginning the Lightbringer's Quest.  So they wouldn't remember the start of the Westfaring, or they would start the Westfaring differently. 

And all the ghosts of all those dead trees would be wandering about.

Perhaps this is the area where Orlanth met Lhankor Mhy and Issaries.  Lhankor Mhy may have been coming from his great library at Nochet.  Issaries had a market there, too, but his presence in Maniria may have some mythical resonance with the later Trader's Route. 

(Of course, the Nightwood exists in the Underworld too as part of the descent, but it provides a good point of correspondence when everything dead and living were all mingled together.)

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Lhankor Mhy may have been coming from his great library at Nochet.

Lhankor Mhy might have even been searching for knowledge in the cities/places of Slontos (e.g. Brithini/Malkioni who may have been there).

[Nevermet]

oh, PS

 

Foreigners

Like many Malkioni, the temple-citizens of Kaxtorplose refer to strangers and foreigners as "Jabberers."  Just outside the Walls, there is a small set of structures called "Jabber Town."  This is the primary location for trade between the Ulliover and the Kaxtori.  Near Jabber Town, there is a large field for the Ulliover to use for their moots.

Hands who work outside the Walls (merchants, hunters, farmers on the larger fields rather than the city gardens) are sometimes called "Jabberpals," though this is an extremely insulting term as it implies someone isn't "really" Kaxtori.

 

The Returned

One cannot talk about "Jabberland", the lands outside the walls that are still well known to the Kaxtori, without talking about the Returned Portions.  At its height during the Second Age, Kaxtorplose's population was roughly three times what it is now, and the population density was much lower.  Contemporary Kaxtorplose, therefore, is surrounded by ruins.  In the past 6 centuries, many of those ruins have become half buried by growth, or actively tilled into being farmland.  However, there are still more than a few haunting structures.  The Builders discourage the Kaxtori and Uliover from going to the Returned, and it is a grave crime if one is found trying to loot the Returned.

[Nevermet]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Lhankor Mhy might have even been searching for knowledge in the cities/places of Slontos (e.g. Brithini/Malkioni who may have been there).

I really need to just sit down with King of Sartar, Heortling Mythology, and Land of 10K Goddesses, and just.... read.

I won't have time to do that for about 6 weeks or so, sadly

[Nevermet]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well, it's the Nightwood, isn't it?

I haven't read up in a while, but my memory is that trying to identify what is Ralian vs. Manirian before time is exceedingly difficult.

[Sir_Godspeed]

If you want additional social framework for changing castes, there is always adoption. Including the adoption of adults. Changes lineage, legal status, etc. It happens in the real world, so it is not too fanciful. 

I am a little bit wary of overexaggerating the isolationism of Kaxtorplose (or any place, rather) too much. While it is technically possible for them to remain isolated in all regards for centuries, it just seems very probable that some people, particularly Dronars, would have intermarried with surrounding Orlanthi by now. Even if it was just a slight trickle, over decades and centuries that amounts to some interethnic mobility. It's not a huge sticking point, but it bears thinking about. I'm sure the Zzaburi and Talari fret over it, though, or perhaps try and obfuscate it as much as possible.

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I haven't read up in a while, but my memory is that trying to identify what is Ralian vs. Manirian before time is exceedingly difficult.

They sort of merge, but Ralios has Halikiv, the troll center, and Maniria has the Arstola Forest, the aldryami center.  And Ralios has the site where Flamal was killed (which if I recall correctly is a place where Arroin and/or Chalana Arroy may be found).  Yelmalio goes limping along through both.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Quote

I haven't read up in a while, but my memory is that trying to identify what is Ralian vs. Manirian before time is exceedingly difficult.

I wonder if Maniria overlapped with mythical Envorela. In that case, the same wood-working, Earth-centric gods (though not necessary Earth gods themselves, elemntally) that we find among the Vingkotlings may have had some influences there: Durev, Orane, Orstan, (Barntar?) etc. The Durevings did have a prior existance as an independent people prior to being assimilated into the Vingkotling confederation, or so we are led to believe at least. There's perhaps something to be said for an interaction between the Dureving Mini-Pantheon and the Aldryami as well. (Durev was carved from wood and magically turned alive by his woodcarver father, amongst other things). Nevermind the whole Mraloti complex tied into all of this and the native Cthonic/Earth powers.

Also there are the Diroti, who arrived after the Flooding of Envorela, iirc, and so would have added something, but you've probably taken that into account already. It would be interesting to see if there's some interplay here with the myth of Heler and Aroka. Sovereign Heler raided the Air and such. The Diroti were Air gods who raided by boat. There's a weird parallel/contrast there, I don't know. It just intuitively feels like they would've interacted at some point, but maybe I'm seeing ties where there are none. 

The two above are things Maniria would at least partially share with Kethaeal/Kerofinela, though, and it would probably be hard to distinguish exactly what were native beliefs at the Dawn (or pre-Dawn mythic events, same difference) and what were later Lightbringer imports.

EDIT: Actually, you might've considered all of this already. I tend to forget which talking points we've already nailed once topics go on for a few weeks, apologies if I just brought up irrelevant stuff!

Edited March 20, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Nevermet]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If you want additional social framework for changing castes, there is always adoption. Including the adoption of adults. Changes lineage, legal status, etc. It happens in the real world, so it is not too fanciful. 

Good idea, thanks 🙂

The political snake pit of finding families willing to adopt an up-and-coming Kaxtori must be wilder, and worse, bribing a family to take a loser who needs to be kept away from responsibilities.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I am a little bit wary of overexaggerating the isolationism of Kaxtorplose (or any place, rather) too much. While it is technically possible for them to remain isolated in all regards for centuries, it just seems very probable that some people, particularly Dronars, would have intermarried with surrounding Orlanthi by now. Even if it was just a slight trickle, over decades and centuries that amounts to some interethnic mobility. It's not a huge sticking point, but it bears thinking about. I'm sure the Zzaburi and Talari fret over it, though, or perhaps try and obfuscate it as much as possible.

I should definitely be more careful about my language.

Even if Kaxtorplose isn't xenophobic, they're not as... aspirationally cosmopolitan as the Trader Prince cities were before Dormal, or Handra and Fay Jee are now.  I'm sure that Kaxtorplose is perfectly happy to take on trade goods, and they're very happy to welcome pilgrims, but, well.... they have their ways of doing things.

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder if Maniria overlapped with mythical Envorela. In that case, the same wood-working, Earth-centric gods (though not necessary Earth gods themselves, elemntally) that we find among the Vingkotlings may have had some influences there: Durev, Orane, Orstan, (Barntar?) etc. The Durevings did have a prior existance as an independent people prior to being assimilated into the Vingkotling confederation, or so we are led to believe at least. There's perhaps something to be said for an interaction between the Dureving Mini-Pantheon and the Aldryami as well. (Durev was carved from wood and magically turned alive by his woodcarver father, amongst other things). Nevermind the whole Mraloti complex tied into all of this and the native Cthonic/Earth powers.

Also there are the Diroti, who arrived after the Flooding of Envorela, iirc, and so would have added something, but you've probably taken that into account already. It would be interesting to see if there's some interplay here with the myth of Heler and Aroka. Sovereign Heler raided the Air and such. The Diroti were Air gods who raided by boat. There's a weird parallel/contrast there, I don't know. It just intuitively feels like they would've interacted at some point, but maybe I'm seeing ties where there are none. 

The two above are things Maniria would at least partially share with Kethaeal/Kerofinela, though, and it would probably be hard to distinguish exactly what were native beliefs at the Dawn (or pre-Dawn mythic events, same difference) and what were later Lightbringer imports.

EDIT: Actually, you might've considered all of this already. I tend to forget which talking points we've already nailed once topics go on for a few weeks, apologies if I just brought up irrelevant stuff!

I have not touched mythology much at all yet, because frankly, there is a daunting amount of information.  

My current thesis, which I have not elaborated at all, let alone post here, is that Entrulings were a group of Orlanthi lead by a very different son of Orlanth than Vingkot. And here we go

• Entrulings were at least 3 groups:
  • People who followed Entru & Ketha west
  • Former Hsunchen,
    • Explains Manirian tendency to have individual animal associations
    • I strongly suspect that the Enrtulings / Harandings tell a very different 
  • Remnants of the Helerings after Heler was devoured. 
    • The single most important Temple to Heler in Genertela is in Maniria, but there was never a "Helering" people since the Dawn
  • I could believe Durevings too, but I haven't explored that
• Entrulings built fewer fortresses than, say, the Esrolians
  • They travelled light, hid from the forces of Chaos, and looked for allies where they could.  
    • Hooafting somehow managed to make a network of secret campsites that Chaos could not find.
  • I want to say that Crazy Uncle Kolat was much more relevant in Maniria than in Esrolian & Hoertling lands, but I am unsure how justifiable this is.
• Elder Races
  • The Aldryami had a complicated relationship with the humans, but through Ketha deals could be reached.
  • I have been working off the assumption there was no Trolls in Maniria at the Dawn
  • As per the Dragonewt thread, I've become persuaded there was probably an ancient nest in Ryzel that the 1st Age Newts wanted to reconnect with and awaken.

...that's all I'm firm about, which reallyisn't much, so, yeah... open the mythical floodgates 😉

[Sir_Godspeed]

That's not bad!