The nature of Spirits in Glorantha

[David Scott]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I am trying to figure out Glorantha, though, where Illusion is temporary reality with as much thingness as permanent reality while the temporary thing exists. Stuff that fades into and out of Time.

If it exists in the spirit world then it has a spirit presence. If while discorporate or through soul sight the illusion is visible, then it could have a spirit. Although here I would say that its a manifestation of the illusion rune. Can manifestations of the illusion rune be spirits - yes if in the spirt world. Are they spirit manifestations in the Middle World, not if they are rune magic, yes if it's an illusion spirit.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A ray of light, a cloud of shadow, a clap of thunder, a push of force? In Glorantha, I would think these have thingness.

See above. But most of these are manifestations of a god, so runes. Unless they manifest in the Spirit World, they aren't spirits.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

A route regularly traveled - whether the Sunpath, a road, a herd's trail, Waha's Trails into Genert's Wastes, the trench left by the Block in the Devil's Marsh, or Ronance's ley lines between Oases.

A physical path could have a spirit or might just be part of a landscape spirit. The sunpath is a celestial path so unlikely to manifest in the spirit world. Trails in the wastes could have a spirit as before or could be manifestations of Ronance. If it can be found in the Spirit World it has a spirit. The trench left by the block is an absence filled by the marsh, It has no spirit, but the marsh does (the corrupted sounder's river at this point).

As for Ronance's "ley lines" between Oases, given that his Rune magic Pathway (RBM 68) is directional not path led, I'd say there's no spirit path. Maybe a shaman of his spirit cult can follow the spirit flowers left by his chariot. Personally I'd avoid the use of lay lines in Glorantha, if there are any, they are magic roads.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But then, there appears to be a practice of integrating spiritual things (or actual spirits) into one's self. Aren't passions something like this, at least potentially?

As I mentioned before, extreme passions certainly are, especially if they manifest as disease that wasn't there before. However, there is a crossover here where rune induce this effect too.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Terrible events bring a long "pools of" awe, terror etc, and some of that latches on to at least some of the witnesses.

In shamanism this is a dual effect. First the event causes Soul Loss, part of your spirit/soul leaves with the trauma. Then something else moves into the space, it can be part of the event, passions created by the dying for example. When integrating a spirit into you, you would only ever use a friendly spirit, a neutral or hostile would cause disease. It's the job of the shaman to acquire the right spirits so this doesn't happen.

[Joerg]

Thanks for remaining with me, David.

You make it sound like there are no runes in the spirit world. Why? The Spirit Rune possibly describes the entirety of the spirit world, but at the very least, form runes are used to differentiate between groups of spirits. Elements and elementals may be only spirit-adjacent, sharing some traits (which sort of curves back to whether bound elementals offer the same benefits as bound spirits in the discussion we started from).

Runes (or at least what they stand for) are present and foundational in the theist world. And they are certainly part of the sorcerous/philosophical/humanist approach of understanding Glorantha.

Many gods are nearly indistinguishable from Great Spirits, and vice versa.

Then there is rune magic that comes through certain spirit cults. Is such magic a spirit thing? Is it from outside of the spirit world?

From talking about such things with Greg (admittedly when he proselytized the "Three Separate Worlds" dogma), the spirit world is directly tied to and descending from the Ultimate, which makes it Real and relevant, even if it may be changeable or even capricious.

 

38 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Quote

Terrible events bring a long "pools of" awe, terror etc, and some of that latches on to at least some of the witnesses.

In shamanism this is a dual effect. First the event causes Soul Loss, part of your spirit/soul leaves with the trauma.

Would that part of the spirit/soul still be a thing that might be recovered, captured, possibly united with something else?

 

38 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Then something else moves into the space, it can be part of the event, passions created by the dying for example. When integrating a spirit into you, you would only ever use a friendly spirit, a neutral or hostile would cause disease. It's the job of the shaman to acquire the right spirits so this doesn't happen.

Is spirit integration necessarily a voluntary process? Voluntary by both parties?

Looking at e.g. RQ3 ghouls, this doesn't seem to be the case. While the ghoul spirit certainly is eager to merge with the corpse, the thingness of the corpse is at best indifferent to the concept of becoming a ghoul, but in all likelihood opposed to that.

I think that a chaos taint would be very much something with a representation in the spirit world. A chaotic feature even more so. Either becomes grafted on the recipient (spirit), becomes a feature of its identity.

Both these examples are from the extreme end of possibilities.

Are there things in the Spirit World that cannot be bargained with? The Bad Man?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

You make it sound like there are no runes in the spirit world. Why?

There are definitely runes in the Spirit World, there are specific places where they manifest (Spirit Vortices for example).

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Spirit Rune possibly describes the entirety of the spirit world, but at the very least, form runes are used to differentiate between groups of spirits. Elements and elementals may be only spirit-adjacent, sharing some traits (which sort of curves back to whether bound elementals offer the same benefits as bound spirits in the discussion we started from).

The spirit rune in RQ describes the form for those who can be in the Spirit World. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Runes (or at least what they stand for) are present and foundational in the theist world. And they are certainly part of the sorcerous/philosophical/humanist approach of understanding Glorantha.

Many gods are nearly indistinguishable from Great Spirits, and vice versa.

Then there is rune magic that comes through certain spirit cults. Is such magic a spirit thing? Is it from outside of the spirit world?

It's whether you can cast that magic in the Spirit World.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Would that part of the spirit/soul still be a thing that might be recovered, captured, possibly united with something else?

Parts lost by Soul Loss can be recovered by a shaman. It's a key healing practice amongst shaman.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Is spirit integration necessarily a voluntary process? Voluntary by both parties?

No, spirit possession for example involuntary.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Looking at e.g. RQ3 ghouls, this doesn't seem to be the case. While the ghoul spirit certainly is eager to merge with the corpse, the thingness of the corpse is at best indifferent to the concept of becoming a ghoul, but in all likelihood opposed to that.

Not everything has a spirit. By its nature a corpse has lost its soul.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I think that a chaos taint would be very much something with a representation in the spirit world. A chaotic feature even more so. Either becomes grafted on the recipient (spirit), becomes a feature of its identity.

Certainly some would manifest. But things like +4D6 SIZ just make the spirit look larger, others could be adapted like Regenerates 2D6–5 hit points per round (minimum of 1 point) in each injured hit location until dead, could just be changed to magic points or as it says in the Bestiary, "Often a spirit manifests its feature only when it possesses someone."

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are there things in the Spirit World that cannot be bargained with? The Bad Man?

Chaos shaman can bargain with the Bad Man, as he's the equivalent of the Horned Man, they have a linked origin.

I'm sure some deities have no interest or power to deal with shaman.

[Lordabdul]

Thanks for making a new topic David!  I refrained from posting in the other thread to keep the derailing to a minimum... but I have possibly similar questions as Joerg, in the sense that I'm wondering what's the "rule of thumb" to figure out if something has/is caused by a spirit, or if it's just some mundane thing. We know diseases are virtually all caused by spirits. But some forms of madness (and some extreme passions) can also be caused by spirits. IIRC some old HW-era books even stated that the fermentation of beer was also caused by spirits... so frankly it sounds to me that anything can be caused by a spirit? So the "rule of thumb" is really just "do you need it for an adventure?".

Edited April 28, 2021 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

I am of the opinion that everything is Glorantha is magical. Skills, languages, rocks and streams, madnesses. If something has a rune, it has magic.  Now, with somethings the magic is closer to the surface. Assuming this postulation is true David, what is it that makes things seem more mundane, less magical? Proximity to other planes, being encased in time?

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Bill the barbarian