Non-orlanthi chieftains and kings

[Soccercalle]

Its quite clear that an Orlanthi and Vinga that gets elected clan chief or tribal king becomes an initiate or even priest of Orlanth Rex. But what happens if they are from another cult? 

I am not asking about people like Kangharl who has abandoned Orlanth and joined the Lunars. But for example if an Ernalda Priestess becomes queen or if an Humakt becomes chieftain. I remember that Mad-Malan was an Humakti when he was king of the Malani and I guess that an Ernalda Priestess could be chief for the Ernaldori.

I see three main alternatives:

1) Non-orlanth/Vinga chiefs and kings become initiates of Orlanth i the Orlanth Rex aspect

2) Non-orlanth/Vinga chiefs and kings does NOT become initiates of Orlanth (Rex). That would mean that there is no Orlanth Rex chief priest in a tribe without an Orlanthi King.

3) Only initiates of Orlanth or Vinga could become chiefs or kings (unless they are occupants or collaborators like Kangharl)

I guess that Prince Temertain (a Lankhor Mhy Sage) is not a member of Orlanth Rex (he was the puppet king when Orlanth was dead). But could he had been if he had turned against the Lunars?

 

[David Scott]

22 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Its quite clear that an Orlanthi and Vinga that gets elected clan chief or tribal king becomes an initiate or even priest of Orlanth Rex. But what happens if they are from another cult?

It's covered in the Cults Preview. Any initiate of Orlanth, or of any associated or friendly cult may become a lay member of Orlanth Rex. That applies to Initiates too. 

So that covers: Subcults: Bartar, Voriof, Drogarsi, Vinga, Associates: Lightbringers (CA, LM, Issaries, Eurmal, Fleshman (Daka Fal)), Ernalda, Grain Goddesses, Engizi, Heler, Inora, Kero Fin, Kolat, Mastakos, Odayla, Storm Bull, Valid, Yinkin, Ygg.

Friendly: Argan Argar, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Donander, Dormal, Eiritha, Flamal, Foundchild, Humakt, Lodril, Lokarnos, Lowfires, Maran Gor, Mralota, Polaris, Pralor, Rathor, Uleria, Voria.

There's likely a few I've missed, but that covers a lot.

[Soccercalle]

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's covered in the Cults Preview. Any initiate of Orlanth, or of any associated or friendly cult may become a lay member of Orlanth Rex. That applies to Initiates too. 

So that covers: Subcults: Bartar, Voriof, Drogarsi, Vinga, Associates: Lightbringers (CA, LM, Issaries, Eurmal, Fleshman (Daka Fal)), Ernalda, Grain Goddesses, Engizi, Heler, Inora, Kero Fin, Kolat, Mastakos, Odayla, Storm Bull, Valid, Yinkin, Ygg.

Friendly: Argan Argar, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Donander, Dormal, Eiritha, Flamal, Foundchild, Humakt, Lodril, Lokarnos, Lowfires, Maran Gor, Mralota, Polaris, Pralor, Rathor, Uleria, Voria.

There's likely a few I've missed, but that covers a lot.

Thanks, that answers my question. So it is Alternative 1.

So someone like Mad-Malan was probably a Sword of Humakt and a chief priest of Orlanth Rex.

Will the subcults Bartar, Voriof, Drogarsi be described in the cults book?

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Soccercalle

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

Will the subcults Bartar, Voriof, Drogarsi be described in the cults book?

yes, Barntar also gets a full separate cult write up.

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

So someone like Mad-Malan was probably a Sword of Humakt and a chief priest of Orlanth Rex.

Mad Blood Malan was a Priest, not a chief priest of Orlanth Rex:

• Lay member = leadership position in a clan (no Rune magic)
• Temporary Initiate = city or tribal council position (access to Rune magic)
• Priest (permanent initiate) = Tribal king 
• High priest = Prince of Sartar

 

[Soccercalle]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

yes, Barntar also gets a full separate cult write up.

Mad Blood Malan was a Priest, not a chief priest of Orlanth Rex:

• Lay member = leadership position in a clan (no Rune magic)
• Temporary Initiate = city or tribal council position (access to Rune magic)
• Priest (permanent initiate) = Tribal king 
• High priest = Prince of Sartar

 

Thanks.

Does "leadership position in a clan" mean being chieftain or is it for all people in the ring?

If it is for all the people in the ring. Would a clan chieftain be a lay member, a temporary initiate or a permanent initiate of Orlanth Rex? I understand that they are not priests.

My wrong about Mad-Malan (tribal king = priest, king/prince of Sartar = high priest)

What are the Rune Spells of Orlanth Rex that for example an Ernalda Princess in the Tribal Ring can learn?

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Thanks.

Does "leadership position in a clan" mean being chieftain or is it for all people in the ring?

All people in the ring

6 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

If it is for all the people in the ring. Would a clan chieftain be a lay member, a temporary initiate or a permanent initiate of Orlanth Rex? I understand that they are not priests.

From my understanding, lay members.

6 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

My wrong about Mad-Malan (tribal king = priest, king/prince of Sartar = high priest)

What are the Rune Spells of Orlanth Rex that for example an Ernalda Princess in the Tribal Ring can learn?

All the Orlanth Rex spells are mentioned in the Core Rules.  Command Priests, Command Worshipers, Detect Honor. All use the Air rune, so if you are not of an air cult, you might not be any good at using them.

[Soccercalle]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

All people in the ring

From my understanding, lay members.

All the Orlanth Rex spells are mentioned in the Core Rules.  Command Priests, Command Worshipers, Detect Honor. All use the Air rune, so if you are not of an air cult, you might not be any good at using them.

Thanks again,

I had forgotten the spells in the core rules. I remembered the clan chief in Six Seasons by @Andrew Logan Montgomery being described as an initiate. But that is of course not ”canon”. I think I would house-rule that a clan chief is an initiate but without the spell Command Priests. 

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

... I think I would house-rule that a clan chief is an initiate but without the spell Command Priests. 

Might I humbly suggest that you go ahead and give that lowly Initiate the Command Priests spell?
I agree with (what I think is) your point that it's an odd inversion of the power structure & creates all sorts of tension & (potential for) ill-will.

I find this is a good thing for stories...

[David Scott]

49 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I think I would house-rule that a clan chief is an initiate but without the spell Command Priests. 

I think thats fine, they could be moving on to greater things. I'd give all initiates magic as has been noted. You have to pay a Rune point so it seems mean not to get any return. I would note however that the rune magic is pretty limited in use.

Jeff has written quite a bit on his Facebook posts, search the archive here. You might need to search for Rex within each page.

Edited April 14, 2022 by David Scott

[Squaredeal Sten]

34 minutes ago, David Scott said:

... You have to pay a Rune point so it seems mean not to get any return. I would note however that the rune magic is pretty limited in use.J...

As i read it the clan chief should be a Rex initiate.  And if already an Orlanth initiate, would not have to make an additional POW sacrifice to enter the sub-cult, per p.301 of RQiG. 

If not an Orlanth initiate, then whether to initiate to Orlanth Rex  is a decision they would have to make, but in an Orlanthi society it's an expected part of the job and failure to do so (and to enhance the tribe's magic) would undermine the chief's political position, increasing their chance of being voted out later.  So the non-Orlanth cultists should only pursue the chief position if they are willing to sacrifice a POW point. 

In my interpretation, this is a disincentive for any but an Orlanth initiate to run for clan chief.  Kind of like a poll tax, isn't it?

Taking any of the Rex rune spells would require the usual POW sacrifice for rune points.  A new Orlanth initiate of the sub-cult may not have any of them.  This might be a temporary obstacle for a Rune Lord-priest at POW 18, or for a priest, though a priest's improved POW gain chance means they should do it within a year or two.

IMHO a mere ring member might be a lay member of Rex but would very rarely be a Rex initiate, so the only one in the clan to have Rex spells will be the chief - or any surviving former chief. 

[David Scott]

9 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If not an Orlanth initiate, then whether to initiate to Orlanth Rex  is a decision they would have to make, but in an Orlanthi society it's an expected part of the job and failure to do so (and to enhance the tribe's magic) would undermine the chief's political position, increasing their chance of being voted out later.  So the non-Orlanth cultists should only pursue the chief position if they are willing to sacrifice a POW point.

(we were talking about non-orlanth initiates per OP)

Only priests are full initiates. Non-Orlanth cult members can get the point of POW back! Hence Temporary initiates (see above).

An Orlanth member would join Rex per the usual subcult rules on 282 and wouldn't normally have to pay a point of POW, but would need so for the magic. Likewise as it says on 301, Only tribal leaders can join the Orlanth Rex subcult. So a clan chief would need to join if they were going for a tribal position only.

[Jeff]

As an aside, remember that the Orlanth Rex cult really wasn't introduced into southern Dragon Pass until the 1450s or so, and wasn't really cemented until Sartar was acclaimed Prince in 1492. So it is entirely likely that Mad-Blood Malan was not an Orlanth Rex initiate at all.

[Soccercalle]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As an aside, remember that the Orlanth Rex cult really wasn't introduced into southern Dragon Pass until the 1450s or so, and wasn't really cemented until Sartar was acclaimed Prince in 1492. So it is entirely likely that Mad-Blood Malan was not an Orlanth Rex initiate at all.

Very true. I think the name "Orlanth Rex" makes it easy to forget the role of Sartar. My question was not so much about Mad-Blood Malan but about kings and chief in general who are initiates to other gods than Orlanth.

It is actually quite hard to see an Orlanth Rex Cult anywhere before 1450 if you need to be of Sartars blood line to become a chief priest.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Soccercalle