Reindeer and moose stats in Weapons and Equipment

[Brian Duguid]

I'm not normally very interested in rules minutiae, but this caught my eye because I developed my own stats for reindeer and moose for the work-in-progress Jonstown Compendium Book of Hsunchen. And then discovered that the stats in Weapons and Equipment are very different - and don't make much sense to me. I need to decide whether to adopt the W&E stats or stick with my own. (I may just stick with my own anyway to save people having to look stuff up in yet another book that they may or may not own).

Here are some key stats for deer taken from W&E page 40 and from Gloranthan Bestiary page 143-144. I've listed the average stats in ascending order, not the die rolls, to make comparison easier. Weights are based on the table on page 9 of the Bestiary, which is intended for humanoids so should be taken as only a very rough guide.

• Black-tailed deer: STR 15-16, SIZ 15-16 (roughly 90kg)
• Elk: STR 26, SIZ 26 (roughly 250kg)
• Reindeer: STR 28-29, SIZ 32 (roughly 420kg)
• Moose: STR 34-35, SIZ 38 (roughly 500kg or more)

Then here they are in "real-world order", using the mule deer as the analog for the black-tailed deer (because they share the same Latin/scientific name Odocoileus hemionus). These details are all from the very helpful website https://www.dimensions.com/collection/deer-cervidae.

• Mule deer: 1.09-1.68m long, 0.81-1.07m shoulder, 45-150kg 
• Reindeer: 1.20-2.22m long, 0.85-1.40m shoulder, 60-320kg
• Elk/wapiti: 2.08-2.44m long, 1.22-1.70m shoulder, 147-500kg
• Moose: 2.80-3.05m long, 1.68-2.11m shoulder, 270-680kg

Now, obviously, the Gloranthan creatures need not be exact analogs for their real-world counterparts. However, the Gloranthan deer have all been given scientific names that match or nearly match their real-world equivalents, suggesting that equivalence is at least a good starting point.

The SIZ and STR stats for the reindeer in W&E seem to me to be way too high, making them into a riding rather than herding animal, with very different implications for the culture of their Hsunchen companions, the Uncolings. Given the accompanying text, using them as mounts seems to be intentional by the authors.

However Guide to Glorantha only ever describes the reindeer people of Eol, Fronela and elsewhere as herders, never as riders. The Uncolings are specifically stated to be "foot nomads".

Any other views?

[Brian Duguid]

There are other aspects of the moose and reindeer in W&E that seem out-of-balance when compared to the other deer. The base damage for butt/gore attacks (2D6 for reindeer and 3D6 for moose) are hugely over-powered (compare the base damage of 1D8 for a mammoth's gore attack, or 1D10 for a rhino's horn), so that a moose does typical total damage of 7D6 for a butt attack (compare 1D8+5D6 for the mammoth, or 1D10+4D6 for the rhino). The base bite damage for the moose of 2D6 is higher than that for a lion or rhino (1D10), which seems absurd (although I've never been bitten by a moose, so perhaps they are more deadly than I imagine!)

And for what are normally considered prey animals, most of the perception skills for the moose and reindeer are very low compared to their other deer cousins e.g. Listen 40% / Scan 35%, compared against Listen 75% / Scan 75% for the elk.

[French Desperate WindChild]

My personal view :

If there are official stats for glorantha beast, I follow official stats for glorantha beast, even if I know that something is absolutly impossible in my real world.

If there is nothing, I apply what I know / find with google

 

In my real world baboon cannot speak,  I cannot mine bronze, there are no cloud sheeps 😛

but I allow baboon to speak in glorantha, people to mine bronze and sheeps to be seen on cloud

 

now as customer, when I buy something I want it to be aligned with the rules.

Of course it is only my point, don't know what is the part of customers who play in glorantha with real world words but different characteristics without any issue  and customers who want to have more similarities between real world and glorantha  (but what could be the right limit ? duck cannot speak physically  or use sword...)

[Brian Duguid]

Maybe that misunderstands my main issue. I'm not bothered that creatures in Glorantha differ from creatures in the real-world. High Llamas are fine with me, for example.

My concern is not just that it doesn't match the real-world, but that the change to having ultra-war-deer in the game, vastly superior to the elk, may not have been well-considered. The values are not well-aligned with other deer and creatures within the game world (let alone with the real world), as is clear from the base damage figures which just don't sit within the general philosophy used to "design" all the creatures in the Bestiary. My concern is balance, not impossibility.

There will be no ultra-war-deer in my game, anyway, at least not until someone heroquests to brink back the Gloranthan equivalent of the giant Irish Elk!

[g33k]

It's worth noting that the "High Llama" is specifically an analogue of a fossil camelid, Alticamelus aka Aepycamelus.  Quite a few of the (mostly North American) mammals -- and at least one bird! -- that went extinct 10K-100K years ago feature in Prax, and some in Sartar too. 

Many of these were larger than modern counterparts.  I haven't researched fossil / archaic reindeer, but it seems possible that this Gloranthan species follows that model.

 

YGMV!

[Ludo Bagman]

Some additional characteristics from RuneQuest 3 with real-life statistics:

• Fallow deer (dama dama): STR 7, SIZ 10-11
  1.30-1.60 m long, 0.76-0.94 m shoulder, 29-100 kg
• White-tailed deer: STR 9, SIZ 14-15
  0.95-2.20 m long, 0.81-0.91 m shoulder, 36-113 kg
• Red deer (cervus elaphus): STR 13, SIZ 22-23
  1-point hide, butt attack 30+3%, damage 1D8+1D6
  1.68-2.59 m long, 1.00-1.20 m shoulder, 113-250 kg

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Any other views?

Write your own stats and ignore those official stats you don't like.

If you feel uncomfortable about it, put the reasons why you have done it in a side-bar, author's comment or footnote.

[Brian Duguid]

41 minutes ago, g33k said:

I haven't researched fossil / archaic reindeer, but it seems possible that this Gloranthan species follows that model.

There were certainly much bigger deer, like the Megaloceros giganteus or Cervalces latifrons, the latter weighed around 1000 kg! IMG deer of this size did exist in Glorantha, and can be found in the God World. Neither of these were especially closely related to reindeer, which is Rangifer tarandus in both the real world and in Glorantha, just highlighting the discrepancy. Naming the variant in W&E Rangifer giganteus might have better indicated a desire to consciously differ 🙂

[Brian Duguid]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Write your own stats and ignore those official stats you don't like.

If you feel uncomfortable about it, put the reasons why you have done it in a side-bar, author's comment or footnote.

Well, that was my basic view anyway, and I've taken just that route 😆