Kaldar and Sinjota

[Erol of Backford]

20 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Undoubtedly Sinjota is oathbound upon the River Styx to perform her task. A willing "volunteer", particularly of her lineage, could transfer the task to the volunteer, and free Sinjota to return to her home elsewhere in the Underworld.

Yeah, no. We'll have the PC's stir clear of her then... unless disguised?

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

We'll have the PC's stir clear of her then... unless disguised?

Mythically, Eurmal distracted and/or deceived Sinjota (via seduction in the myth). As a trickster story, I wouldn't expect the details to repeat, so something disguised would fit as part of a larger deception.

[Erol of Backford]

Similar descriptions of Eurmal seducing Sinjota appeared in 5-6 sources.6

In one of them she eats him then gives birth to Yomat Burtae who is famous in the East but then the authors changed it later to the West...

Curious if Eurmal is out of the picture in the rest of the Lightbringer's Quest since he was eaten and if he did come back how did he resurrect himself without a body?

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Similar descriptions of Eurmal seducing Sinjota … In one of them she eats him then gives birth to Yomat

Hmm … “gives birth to”? How about: she swallows Trickster and shits out Yomat? (He would be available for the rest of the quest a lot quicker.)

FreeAssociativeRambling™ begins:

IIRC, Yomat is “friend to man”, and “Yomat” sounds a bit like “Humakt” (an observation owed to @scott-martin, I think). One might add (although it seems very unGloranthan) that Y = and t = . Trickster Deathbringer — death serves life? the sword broo denies it — and Firebringer (Prometheus and likely others). one might say is considered as a power, rather than a form. let in; ain’t that the ? (At least) the old Gloranthan conception of was temporary reality, but teaches us that all reality is temporary — “This too shall pass” (این نیز بگذرد) — that in sorting the temporary/illusory from the true/constant, one finds that is just another sign for the empty set, {}, Ø (my personal glyph, the HW chaos rune seen askew, LRT on a really bad day), the Void.

• Death, Chaos, and Disorder are tightly bound.
• Truth and Illusion (in their Gloranthan senses) are one idea — like North and South, or true and false — and in a world of time (inevitable given Death and Chaos), all is Illusion.
• Truth collapses into Chaos — “nothing is true; everything is permitted” — and Humakt is the greatest Lord of Terror (see this and following).
• All in an acidic, opiated, amphetamine-drenched variant Glorantha, of course! (But if you think that an anthropology seminar sounds like more fun, you have probably never been to one. The hairy chests and sharktooth necklaces are still burned into my retinas.)

So do we say that Humakt = Yomat = Trickster? Death is Trickster at his most deadpan and Squeak the Mouse to the clowns’ Tom & Jerry?

What would that tell us about Orlanth and his supposed binding of Trickster? You cannot bind Death? The Truth shall set you free? Truth is the Father of Lies?

Spoiler

Don’t ask me, I know nothing. Ø, I tell you.

Edited May 13, 2023 by mfbrandi

[Erol of Backford]

37 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Yomat is “friend to man”,

I like this part, that friend to man is actually Fleshman but I know very little of him... ah, another Saturday rabbit hole.

Spoiler

First guess I thought the picture was Thor and Jörmungandr but Sinjonta could be the serpent I suppose translated to Glorantha?

Thanks for that Mr. Brandi.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

First guess I thought the picture was

But you searched and found it was his “brother.” Dunno the snake’s name, but it is no ouroboros. Trickster “escaping” from Sinjota is a whole other picture — and this is a family show.

[mfbrandi]

23 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Prometheus was bound and tortured via reptile, too, of course. In my ignorance, I get the feeling that the Norse myths as we know them are rather late, written down by those well-versed in Christian and Classical myths.

Edited May 13, 2023 by mfbrandi

[Erol of Backford]

3 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

and this is a family show

I didn't look at it that way, 

18 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Jörmungandr

Odin banished Loki to a world where he is tortured by the Midgard Serpent.

https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-bound/

The salmon writhed in the war-god’s grasp, but Thor held him fast by his tail fins. This is why, to this day, the salmon has a slender tail.

Loki was then fastened to three rocks in the cave with the entrails of his slain son, which the gods had turned into iron chains.

The entrails turning into iron is really interesting and could easily be spun into my Backford campaign.

I'll have to read an old book I have on Norse myths I guess, thanks again Mr. Brandi.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Odin banished Loki to a world where he is tortured by the Midgard Serpent.

Why do you think the Midgard Serpent is the snake that drips its venom onto Loki’s face?

I agree that all the wolves and snakes get confusing and one would like to apply Occam’s razor.

[scott-martin]

14 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

In one of them she eats him then gives birth to Yomat Burtae who is famous in the East but then the authors changed it later to the West...

Two things here, the last one first:

I'm increasingly seduced by the idea that the previous sun crossed the sky in the opposite direction, emerging from the horizon in what we now call the ancient "west" and rejoining the underworld out past modern Vithela. Call it a "solar reversal" if you enjoy speculative paleoastronomy but it opens up a space for Greg's occasional early compass point confusion and frequent RW map flips to reveal something essential. Also explains why dragonewts as faithful children of another sun are left handed.

Second (first), any time a character vanishes and another appears in close proximity the mythic economy gives us an opportunity to cast the same actor in different costumes. Thus when she incorporates Eurmal and "regurgitates" Yumat we can read for underlying continuity behind the superficially separate names and aspects. A tricky guy goes in and a deathy guy comes out: coup de theatre, everybody gasps. The plot develops in linear fashion across the discovery of death. Sinjota is the situation where the trickster aspect gets transmuted into the death aspect. She's where he finds death and in the process his previous clown role takes on more overtly serious implications that are different enough that he gets a new name. Is he the same god transformed or are there two gods here? Depends on what you want . . but if we consider her as an aspect of "Subere" cloaking infinite secrets maybe we get somewhere interesting with his psychological arc and hers as well of course.

For example because kundalini is commonly compared to a snake the image of Loki and Prometheus bound in snake coils is interesting cover for a family show that wants to explore prestige television themes. Early trickster has zero discipline and zero reality principle. He cannot keep it in his pants because he will not wear pants. It takes an encounter with something larger to domesticate him. Early trickster experiences this encounter as death. He is reborn as someone who understands how death works. Early orlanth has zero discipline and zero reality principle beyond what we learn as a very little god with no tangible birthright in a world of very large gods with prerogatives. He gets beat up a lot. When the trickster and orlanth myths start interacting in the morning of the world, trickster brings death and orlanth brings "honor," something like responsibility. They shuffle aspects and keep moving. Someone called HMKT is generated around the edges, becoming a reservoir for death and honor and liberating his two dads to focus on other things. Add them all up and you have YMT, the theoretical giant who broke the original order of things.

So that's the story of the  and the , leaving the "m" that unites them on the top level to be discovered. Of course there's an "m" (and a "k") in Malkion (and so by gematria, the modern bearded god of the hill tribes) and as luck would have it I am currently waist deep in the most likely candidate: . But that's a more complicated process and quite the tangent.

 

[Erol of Backford]

 

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Why do you think the Midgard Serpent is the snake that drips its venom onto Loki’s face?

I read through one of the Wikipedia links and it showed:

Loki was sent to the creature's dimension as punishment by Odin and the Midgard Serpent tortured him by dropping venom in his eyes, possibly until the end of time. Loki was briefly freed from the Midgard Serpent by Enchantress, but was then sent back after he failed her.

I fell for Wikipedia... it doesn't say that it isn't Jörmungandr but I only know very little. I did play the game Ragnarok back in the 80's which isn't really on topic unless Kaldar and Sinjota could be somehow turned into the guardians of the Rainbow Bridge?

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

I agree that all the wolves and snakes get confusing and one would like to apply Occam’s razor.

If only I were omnipotent but I suppose knowing all would have me disagreeing with those who believe what isn't correct... 

Loki was then fastened to three rocks in the cave with the entrails of his slain son, which the gods had turned into iron chains would be a great spell: Transmute Entrails to Iron. 2 point Divine magic spell used on slain foes turning  intestines to iron chains. Each point of this stackable spell allows transmutation of one slain foes entrails to 1 encumbrance of iron chain.

[Erol of Backford]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I'm increasingly seduced by the idea that the previous sun crossed the sky in the opposite direction, emerging from the horizon in what we now call the ancient "west" and rejoining the underworld out past modern Vithela.

I thought once the sun stopped, possibly it stopped and then went back to the horizon it had come from actually reversing? This would easily explain the change from Yomat Burtae being worshiped in the east and then the west, especially if east and west were to have been switched?

12 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

She's where he finds death and in the process his previous clown role takes on more overtly serious implications that are different enough that he gets a new name.

Maybe Eurmal seduces her and then eats her and poops her out as twins? I suppose it could be anything. Back in those days a few drinks into the evening's adventures, even possibly some other inducers of imagination could have been in play for sure. I know they were even before we were legal age for beer back then... if you  think there were not imagination enhancers used for most programing for kids back in the 70's and 80's... just take a good look Jimmy and his magic flute, Sigmund and the sea monsters, etc. Everyone was creative in the 70's. Look at this guy, could have been one of Sinjonta's offspring.

 

[scott-martin]

44 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Sigmund and the sea monsters,

Looking at that post again I should've shown the work a little more clearly:

  ->  
(L)(N) /   (L) ->
(K) 

Now (L)(K)(N) actually combines all of these factorials and we know him in modern times as (L)(N)(K) , the grandfather or "sage" god of the storm pantheon, but that takes us a little farther afield. 

(The blue man stole his . Note that the two gods in the middle share an L, which might be an archaic form of "disorder," strength or pleasure principle . . .  that the southern god retains and the grim death god transmutes into something else. L is for Lodril.)

I think  substitutes for at least /a, ae/ among the vowels by the way. However  becomes a problem for people who insist that the aerlits are their own thing and not just another dispossessed sky line. Some of the young gods will take  and others will take  but the consonantal runic identities are what matters.

Edited May 13, 2023 by scott-martin
parenthesis and extension

[Erol of Backford]

x3+y3+z3=k

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Loki was sent to the creature's dimension as punishment by Odin and the Midgard Serpent tortured him by dropping venom in his eyes

Probably not a case of Wiki being wrong, but possibly this only applies to Marvel Loki.

I think Gaiman had the scene in Sandman, too, but I don’t know whether he named the snake.

Everyone — he said, rashly — agrees on the venom bit, though.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Loki was then fastened to three rocks in the cave with the entrails of his slain son, which the gods had turned into iron chains would be a great spell: Transmute Entrails to Iron. 2 point Divine magic spell used on slain foes turning  intestines to iron chains. Each point of this stackable spell allows transmutation of one slain foes entrails to 1 encumbrance of iron chain.

But play fair: the spell only works if you bind someone with the entrails of their dead child (possibly slain by a sibling), only then do the entrails turn to iron. You cannot just go around killing people and transmuting them to iron — necro-alchemy’s not that easy — you need their family, too. And maybe their parent has to be a god. A god of escapology, even.

It is a hard spell. It is an evil spell. Nice chains, but it is shame about all that blood on your hands.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Sigmund and the sea monsters

The sea of the unconscious, presumably.

[Erol of Backford]

49 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But play fair: the spell only works if you bind someone with the entrails of their dead child (possibly slain by a sibling), only then do the entrails turn to iron.

We must draw the entrail line somewhere. I was hoping this could be for any entrails as part of a ritual of sorts like in Prax where iron is in higher demand by some tribes? 

Possibly its a hero quest for metals in Prax? Anyone have ideas, Genert's bones?

Edited May 13, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

A tricky guy goes in and a deathy guy comes out: coup de theatre, everybody gasps. The plot develops in linear fashion across the discovery of death. Sinjota is the situation where the trickster aspect gets transmuted into the death aspect.

Quote

André Previn:   You're playing all the wrong notes.
Eric Morecambe: I'm playing all the right notes. But not necessarily in the right order.

Spoiler

Explanation for non-Brits here.

Isn’t that just the way with Godtime? Does a prank that got out of hand explain Death, or does Death explain Trickster (Madman aspect)? Was Old Chucklebonce driven mad by his own suicide?

What do we know about Flesh Man?

Quote

Flesh Man was a mortal being, a grandchild of Grandfather Mortal, who was first-made Man and who lived on the slopes of The Spike. Save Humakt and Eurmal, he was the only witness to the death of Grandfather Mortal. — WoD

Quote

Did you know that many God Learners concluded that Flesh Man was another name for Malkion? I posted this after reading some notes from Greg he wrote back in 1978 or 1979 that identified Flesh Man with Malkion. — Jeff Richard

And he is — of course — quite, quite mad.

And about Glorantha we know:

• Three — generations, inter alia — collapse into one easily
• Don’t bother counting the bodies in the room — it will only mislead you
• Creation and Destruction are one, and the best person to strike the blow is one’s worst enemy — oneself

It is all a bit the father, the son, and the holy fool, isn’t it? That suits Karl Glogauer just fine. Basically, Glorantha is a Heinleinian/Gerroldian solipsist’s wet dream. We will get back to the wetness, I promise.

Death, we are told, starts with the murder of Grandfather Mortal, but the dismemberment of the Cosmic Dragon looks like a precedent. An error? Not if we use our patented (doubtless in India) amazing kaleidoscopic polytheism collapsing device: Humakt = Yomat = Grandfather Mortal = Flesh Man = Malkion = Eurmal = the Cosmic Dragon. Do we have to call it the Invisible Cosmic Fleshy Dragon, now?

In identities, no one term wears the trousers: We Are One, One, All in One, Mr. Hardin assures me. Doubtless, we could expand the list of equivalences — look for self-inflicted wounds, especially in the forehead. The spurious notion of death as separation came from the identification of the third eye with the pineal gland — Descartes was likely a tuatara.

This gives us an immortal creator who is also fully mortal and self-sacrificing for the benefit of their creation. What did you say Greg’s religious background was? A bit like Aleister’s?

But madness, murderousness, and wetness — in the form of water’s pet “phylum”/totem animal — come together in one clown, our Lord and Saviour, the Joker. Did you ever get the feeling there was something a bit off about the cosmos? Forget HPL — that is cosmic horror. I never forgave Alan Moore for shooting Babs.

[Rambleathon terminates … without cohering.]

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I was hoping this could be for any entrails as part of a ritual of sorts like in Prax where iron is in higher demand by some tribes? 

Possibly its a hero quest for metals in Prax? Anyone have ideas, Genert's bones?

We are all Genert’s bones.

Spoiler

By the time we got to Woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our nation

We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
back to the garden

— Joni Mitchell

So is nuking Yasgur’s farm the @soltakss-style method of bringing back the OG Sun?

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So is nuking Yasgur’s farm the @soltakss-style method of bringing back the OG Sun?

Not my style really.

However, there is a precedent. Some say the Dragonewts engineered the events leading to the Dragonkill in order to get enough people present for the Dragons to participate. So, getting enough people present to act as a huge sacrifice makes some sense.

[mfbrandi]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Dragonewts engineered the events leading to the Dragonkill in order to get enough people present for the Dragons to participate.

I am now picturing the dragons as Naomi Campbell: they won’t get out of bed for less than n thousand tasty snacks.

[mfbrandi]

19 hours ago, scott-martin said:

  ->  
(L)(N) /   (L) ->
(K) 

Now (L)(K)(N) actually combines all of these factorials and we know him in modern times as (L)(N)(K) 

In case anyone is as dim as I am — almost certainly impossible — stands for M. For Magasta .

Spoiler

Yomat —> Orlanth/Eurmal (i.e. the troublemaker) —> Humakt. It’s the of Death, baby. All summed up in Malkion/Lhankor Mhy. If I had only found my secret decoder ring earlier … sigh!

I was going “W for water? S for sea? Z for Zaramaka ?” Finally, this afternoon, the penny dropped.

Does anyone have the scoop on apparently multiple rune owners? Or on whether rune assignments are ordered or unordered?

• Ordered: where != , (, , ) != (, , ) != (, , )
• Unordered: {, , } = {, , } = {, , }

My money is on unordered — anything else would be a faff — but my money is usually on the wrong horse.

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

the Dragonewts engineered the events leading to the Dragonkill

We are liking dragonewts less and less. That is why we get our tongues split and learn Wyrmish so we can infiltrate and know their plan.

But what does this have to do with Sinjota? Is she part dragonewt?

From the description she has snake fangs so a bit reptilian but hairy and with tusks?

The obvious solution is that Eurmal made himself look like Kaldar but in a dashingly handsome way, with scales and a snake headed tail (that part says it all) and seduced Sinjota, so her offspring would have some reptilian features that were handed down to Yomat Burtae...

[scott-martin]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

What do we know about Flesh Man?

As luck would have it the "K" rune revealed itself to me last night . . . or "man rune supine" but it introduced itself to me as the sacrifice. Malkion the sacrifice, the ultimate rite of the old Fronelan religion. Eurmal and Orlanth do not have knowledge of this principle, which might operate something like Crowley's version of the hanged man: a drastic resolution for when the resolutions get drastic, a way to end an old world that has gotten unbearable and clear space for the new. When god makes a deal with god, whether that involves hanging on a spear (family show) or raising the line of Abraham for slaughter. Humakt, on the other hand, is well aware. And it's interesting that the beard cult knows all of these things even though the tendency is to portray them as light comedy nebbishes. People keep trying to misspell Lhankor Mhy by eliding a consonant or moving the aspiration but he is possibly the only god to maintain access to  while reaching for and whatever (probably thunder or an archaic form of "mastery") emerges to claim "N." He negotiates between the world's trivial juvenilia and its most profound mature realizations. In theory, his people can know everything and this is probably the key to the Philosopher King movement that we know becomes a subversive element in the terminal third age. Think of all those nerds emerging from their cubbies to claim a poorly educated world. In the triumph of knowledge you have nothing to lose but your brains!

But as usual this is a digression. I think Kaldar is an interesting figure here because he gets the "K" and so is integrated into the death story on the sharp and painful end. Kaldar is what happens as you note when the Eurmals of the world need to sacrifice something to make change happen. He's the egg that needs to be broken.

And the dragonewts are all over this thread, speaking of species that theoretically interpret all forms of  as food or slave. I don't know how the dragons tell the death story. Maybe this is how it goes.