Firearm Damages

[Atgxtg]

I've been tweaking the firearm damages again. I adjusted a coupleof weapons to better scale them in relation to other weapons (notable the .44 Mag). I was wondering how this looks to people.

.25ACP 1D6(-2P)

.22LR 1D6+2(-2P)

9mmK 1D6

.45ACP 1D8(+2S)

9mm 1D10

.357M 1D10+1

.44M 2D6 (+2S)

5.56mm NATO 2D8+1 (-2P)

7.62 NATO 2D8+2 (-2P)

12.7mm (M82 Barret) 2D10+4 (+2S)

12.7mm (M2 Browning) 2D10+5 (+2S)

The -2P means that the damage is reduced by 2 after penetrating armor. So if you got 6 points past the armor you end up doing 4.

The +2S means that it does 2 extra points of damage if the initial damage manages to penetrate the armor. So a .45 or .44Magnum are nasty if the get through your body armor.

This way a .45 can have a higher damage than the 9mm without being a better penetrator.

[badcat]

The 9mmk, .45, .357, maybe .44 too low. .22 and .5.56 too high. Otherwise close enough. Oh, and I think the .45 is a better penetrator than the .9mm; penetration is more a function of mass than velocity...that is why shooting experts advise against calibers like the .243 for really big tough animals like bears and moose, and elephant and water buffalo and such are usually taken by big medium velocity rounds like the .458 or .416...with solid bullets at that. I have read that many soldiers in Korea traded in Hi-Powers for 1911s because the 9mm could not penetrate the Chinese greatcoats well enough to stop them. Any pistol round is a poor penetrator of body armor in comparison to rifle rounds except some of the big boys (and I don't mean the .45 ACP).

You don't really need the extra penetration factor mechanic. All IMHO, and because you asked for opinions.

[soltakss]

You probably need two sets of damage, one for settings that use Hit Locations and one for settings that don't. (You had that in your sample Colt 45 writeup and it's a good idea)

So, a gun that will take someone down in CoC would be too powerful in RQ because all you need to do in RQ is hit a vital and do 1/3 HPs but you need to do a lot more in CoC.

Of course, if everyone started using Hit Locations (as everyone should) then it wouldn't be a problem.

You could do a lot worse than base it on the weapons stats from Future World (Worlds of Wonder). They cover several basic modern weapon types and look reasonable to me.

[soltakss]

It would be good to get a definitive list of weapons or weapon categories for different BRP settings.

Rather than reinventing the wheel, it might be worth looking at supplements such as Worlds of Wonder, Ringworld or Superworld just to see what stats they have for weapons. It might be worth comparing them to CoC stats and seeing what the differences are.

[Atgxtg]

The 9mmk, .45, .357, maybe .44 too low. .22 and .5.56 too high. Otherwise close enough. Oh, and I think the .45 is a better penetrator than the .9mm; penetration is more a function of mass than velocity...that is why shooting experts advise against calibers like the .243 for really big tough animals like bears and moose, and elephant and water buffalo and such are usually taken by big medium velocity rounds like the .458 or .416...with solid bullets at that. I have read that many soldiers in Korea traded in Hi-Powers for 1911s because the 9mm could not penetrate the Chinese greatcoats well enough to stop them. Any pistol round is a poor penetrator of body armor in comparison to rifle rounds except some of the big boys (and I don't mean the .45 ACP).

You don't really need the extra penetration factor mechanic. All IMHO, and because you asked for opinions.

No problem with opinions, that's why I started a thread. I can't very well ask for feedback and get upset when I get it.

According to the data I've seen the 9mm is a better penetrator than the .45. Keep in mind, I'm talking the standard .45ACP round. In fact you are the first person I've heard claim otherwise.

As far as the big game goes. The problem is that the lighter bullet doesn't keep it kinetic energy as well (lower momentum and inertia) and so looses the energy before it can penetrate. IN my revision this is factored in with the +S and -P. Since animals don't wear body armor, penetrating round won't be as effective as damage doers.

Penetration is more than just function of mass. it is more a factor of energy over area. There are also things like material hardness that factor in, too.That is why penetrator rounds are more narrow. It hold true from pistol ammo all the way up to tank round and their discarding sabots.

HEre is a simple test. Have a friend hold up a sheet of paper and try to push your finger through it. Chances are, unless your fingernails are sharp, you can"t. On the other hand, you can poke a tack through easily. Of course the tack doesn't do much "damage" to the paper.

As for the other rounds.

9mmK: Ehh, maybe.

.22LR: Yeah probably should drop that down a little.

.357M.: Not in comparison to the rifles. If we keep it at D8+D4 then the .44 needs to go up further, and that would mean the rifles and heavier weapons need to go up. Keep in mind a Class II NIJ vest will stop .357 rounds. From the way the math is working out that seems to be around the 8 point vest given in the CoC book.

As it stands in CoC the .50 cal is only doing twice the damage of the .45ACP.

5.56N- Well it does 2D8 in CoC, and my mod actually nerfs it a little. And from what I've read the 5.56 penetrates better than the 7.62 Russian round. Plus the 5.56 is typically traveling fast enough that when the bullet fragments it can inflict serious wounds.

While I'd like to have more spread between the 5.56 and 7.62, it would mean pushing up the 12.7mm bullet. Considering the HP scores of elephants, bear and other big game, I'd have liked a higher rating for the .50cal.

.44M. -If type IIIA can stop it then we need to put the damage at about that level. I'm thinking a IIIA vest will be around 11 points or so. This gives a .44 a slight chance of penetrating or doing some serious blunt trauma.

Thanks for the opinion, though. I'll look over some stuff.

The hard part is fitting this all in with the "data points" for armor and weapons gfiven in CoC. Vehicle APs need to be set in the range where they can stop weapon A without stopping Weapon B. The wide die ranges for damage play havoc with that.

[Atgxtg]

You probably need two sets of damage, one for settings that use Hit Locations and one for settings that don't. (You had that in your sample Colt 45 writeup and it's a good idea) {/quote]

Actually the first damage was CoC damage, the second was what I would prefer using. Actually I wish I still had the damages from 1st edition CoC. I recall the .30 browning doing a lot more damage there. I might end up taking another point off the damage in the western write up, too. I read that the original powder charge was too much for the gun and that Colt reduced powder for the commercial loads.

Yeah, that is one of the big pains with this. It really can't be helped, either as I don't see two sets of melee weapon damages going with it. What I would love is a stun/shock mechanic.

But if you are using major wounds, the there isn't as much difference between general HP and hit locations.

Realstically, practically none of the weapons listed will kill someone right away with a single hit, or even two or three. But if we changed it for firearms we would need to change it for melee weapons too. 90% of people died after the battle was over. Maybe worth an optional rule somewhere down the line.

Actually, considering how broad and flexible the categories are they don't look too bad, although a bit high. I do like the "spread" a bit better. The 4D6 heavy assault rifle and the 5D6 semi-portable weapon certainly raise the damage cap. I just don't like that an "average" hit from a heavy rifle or assault rifle will kill an "Average" person on the spot.

[Atgxtg]

It would be good to get a definitive list of weapons or weapon categories for different BRP settings.

Rather than reinventing the wheel, it might be worth looking at supplements such as Worlds of Wonder, Ringworld or Superworld just to see what stats they have for weapons. It might be worth comparing them to CoC stats and seeing what the differences are.

I have done some of that. The problem is the stats are not consistent from game to game. Despite statements of how BRP was the first "generic" RPG the truth is that damages have not been consistent from game to game. For instance a M16 in Superworld does 1D8+2, but an "assault rifle" in Future World does 4d6, while a M16 in CoC 5th edition does 2D8. Even longbow damages have shifted depending on if you are playing RQ, Stormbringer or Call of Cthulhu.

One thing that BRP will hopefully do is standardize the weapons in the game for all genres.

[badcat]

Yes, the physics is much more complicated, but mind how I phrased it...'more of a function of mass...', not that mass is the be-all and end-all. The 45's penetration is surprising, if you look closer. And I suggest reading more actual combat experiences. There are many bits of conventional wisdom about firearms that are blatantly false, like how the .45 kicks for instance. I have shot both, and there isn't a great deal of difference in recoil in reality. The real differences come in magazine size and ammunition design. Since it has the greater diameter, I think the .45 is likely superior in a fight simply because it makes a bigger hole, and I believe the combat vets that have actually been there. Ones whose opinions I have read and ones that I have talked to (those latter I highly prize and trust). Take that as you may; it is the second hand information I have more faith in.

The 5.56 is a man-killer, no doubt about it, especially in the 62-77 grain bullets the miilitary uses. Geneva Convention aside, apparently the longer bullets tend to tumble in the target and create trauma wholly out of proportion to the caliber. But I have heard about deficiencies for years, like it's not such a great penetrator.

Whenever I have run CoC, I have not modified the guns' stats much. They work well enough for me without a lot of additional rules and mechanics. It's certainly fun to speculate, though.

I guess the only firearms related rule I ever introduced was a way to kill an elephant with one shot, because the 'elephant gun' stats just don't even come close to the elephants' stats, and there are many well known instances of one shot kills of elephants and other big game with relatively minor calibers like the 7mm. There was one successful ivory hunter (wish I could think of the guys name) who used a 7mm Mauser exclusively. I usually just made up a houserule to cover it, but anyway it's about the only thing that bothers me about CoC's firearms rules.

Anyway have fun experimenting. I think you are much more a rules guy than me.

[Atgxtg]

A lot of "conventional wisdom" about firearms, well, most of it, is just crap. I'm with you there.

RE: The .45 Penetration. A lot of combat vets don't know crap about ballistics either. You get a lot of weird anecdotal stuff that doesn't hold true. I know one guy who swears that a .45 can cause your heart to stop from "blunt trauma" right though a ballistic vest because of some story he heard about a guy who died under such conditions. Personally, I think it was probably the years of streak dinners that did it not the .45.

As for recoil, that is highly subjective. You probably already now about perceived recoil. Much of that varies by shooter. It one reason why most shooter experts recommend that people use a gun that they feel comfortable shooting rather than a cannon that they can't control or makes them flinch when the fire it.

All the ballistics tests I've seen put the 9mm ahead in penetration, although not in wound cavity. Of course if you are not using standard ball loads it's a whole different story, but the Geneva convention prohibits most of those. Not that it would matter much against first world armies.

RE; THe 5.56 For instance the 5.56 tumbling thing. Lots of guys from 'nam swear the bullet tumbles in the air. Not true. If it did you couldn't aim the thing. What is true is that the 5.56 bullet does have as much spin stabilization as some other rifle rounds and it tends to break up on impact. I've read that it penetrates

As for CoC, gun stats are pretty much a non issue. Most mythos creatures only take 1 point, or are just immune, assuming that the character made the SAN roll and can still pull the trigger. . So the stats are academic.

I'm tweaker for purposes of doing the vehicle rules. TO get those to work right, we need to work out what sort of scale/progression is being used to make everything else fit. For example, I did up a M113APC writeup. To make it work, it needed to be able to stop pistol and rifle rounds, yet be vulnerable to 12.7mm rounds. With 7.62 and 5.56 rounds both maxing out at 16 points, and 12.7mm rounds doing around 2D10+4 or +5 then 17-20 was the "window" left to work in. And that assumes that you can't impale a vehicle like a person.

With 20 APs the M113 can stop a rifle, but not a M2 MG, Dragon, or a Superstrong hero. All possibilities with BRP.

Right now, it looks like they used a square or cubing formula for damage and armor progression. So that is what I'm going to try to use to get a "master scale".

Elephant's and one shot kills. Actually the rules aren't too bad on this. If you assume the 4 pt armor from CoC (looks like it is 8, halved vs. firearms), use hit locations, allowing for telescopic sights and aimed shots, then the chances of dropping one is fairly good with a Elephant gun.

The problem is that with BRP damage is all at once. Realistically, the Elephant is probably alive when it hits the ground and dies sometime while the shooter is walking up to it.

Same is true with a shooting people. Almost no one dies from the bullet. Rather they die from the blood loss and from the loss of certain body functions. That's why casualtiy lists are "X killed, 5 times wounded".

One thing I liked about the Bond Rules and wish that BRP had was that you could take a penalty to hit to up your damage class. Something like attacking at 1/2 chance but shifting your damage die up to steps.

[badcat]

My sources are very reliable, not second hand. Believe what you wish.

[Atgxtg]

My sources are very reliable, not second hand. Believe what you wish.

Then back them up. Basically the "I think this because some I trust told me so." isn't any sort of solid evidence.

I know lots of guys who have fired different weapons, from police, army soldiers, marines, the navy, hunters, etc. That doesn't prove anything. Heck, I know one guy who switched from a 9mm to a 38 Special because it was wider. Now the 9mm is .355 and the .38 Special is .357 and in that case width isn't a factor. But that was his reason. I know a guy who was in Military Intelligence who is the one who believes that the .45 can stop a heart.

I can't just take you word on how good your sources are. I'll take data that is backed up like ballistics tests and NIJ ratings.

I know a very reliable four year old who believe Santa Clause is going to stop at her house on Christmas Eve, and who has seen Santa. I don't doubt her reliability, or her veracity. That doesn't prove that Santa exists.

If you have some sort of evidence that supports a .45 penetrating deeper than a 9mm, please show it. Otherwise, I'm going with the vast majority of evidence to the contrary.

Truth be told, the actual load being use is more important than caliber in regard to the 9mm/.45 thing. Especially considering how long both rounds have been in service and how much the charges have been upped over the years.

You talked before about the errors of "conventional wisdom" but seem to fall back on the same fallacy that created them. Believing things without evidence.

Perhaps the biggest abuse of "conventional wisdom" is the .45s reputation as a "manstopper". It right up there with bullets "knocking" people back or down.

[SDLeary]

Perhaps the biggest abuse of "conventional wisdom" is the .45s reputation as a "manstopper". It right up there with bullets "knocking" people back or down.

Well... to be fair, the .45 is MORE of a man stopper than the 9mmP. Energy is generally higher across the field, and the bullet tends to be of larger diameter, and more mass. This tends to relate to the amount of energy actually transfered to the target. This is ONE of the reasons that special forces the world over use it on operation; the other being its subsonic nature.

The shape of the .45 ACP though is something of a slightly elongated ball (american football or rugby ball, with a flat end) and thus should not have the overall penetration (target depth) of the sleeker and narrower 9mmP.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Well... to be fair, the .45 is MORE of a man stopper than the 9mmP. Energy is generally higher across the field, and the bullet tends to be of larger diameter, and more mass. This tends to relate to the amount of energy actually transfered to the target. This is ONE of the reasons that special forces the world over use it on operation; the other being its subsonic nature.

Agreed. A .45 also inflicts larger wounds that a 9mm. What I was referring to was the the myth of how .45s would "knock a man down", or "send him flying". That's fiction. It you blow out a kneecap or something you might make someone fall, but it isn't the force of the bullet. And if the bullet could send a man flying backwards, firing the shot would send the shooter backwards as well.

I also agree with it reason for being used by special forces, although I think that has to do with the subsonic nature. Basically if you need to silence a pistol, why not take one that already is subsonic and has the heaviest bullet?

Plus the same forces who use the .45ACP also use 9mm pistols and SMGs. Also for good reasons. I don't think I want a .45 SMG that wasn't using at least semi-jacketed ammo.

The shape of the .45 ACP though is something of a slightly elongated ball (american football or rugby ball, with a flat end) and thus should not have the overall penetration (target depth) of the sleeker and narrower 9mmP.

SDLeary

That's what I thought. Most of the data I've seen points to a 9mm being better at penetrating body armor. Again, this is all subject to load. Some .45 rounds can penetrate really well, and some 9mm rounds, such as Glaser safety slugs don't penetrate that well.

If someone has something that shows otherwise I'd like to see it.

As it stands I don't accept that a .45ACP has the same penetration ability as a .357 Magnum. The same wounding ability, maybe. Possibly even better, since it has a bigger, heavier bullet.

[Judas]

All this talk is fun but in the long run kind of irrelevant. Are we talking a 158 grain +P hollowpoint round through a 6" barrel, or a 110 grain standard loading FMJ round from a 2" barrel? There are so many thousands of combinations of bullet types, bullet weights, powder charges, barrel lengths, etc. that the variation requires either very long weapon lists, or a few basic categories (light, medium, heavy, very heavy) with enough variation in the damage. I've seen tests of .38 Special rounds with velocities from 6-700 FPS to over 1100 FPS with bullets of the same diameter and almost identical weights from the same gun. What's the damage from a .38?

Don't get me wrong though, it would be cool to have a gigantic weapon list with tons of weapons with various barrel lengths and ammo choices!

Anyway, the undisputed number one factor in "stopping power" is shot placement. Skill means more than bullet size, weight, magazine capacity, how cool it looks, what "special forces" guys use, or what some guy told you.

Maybe +1 point of damage per 10 or 20 points in the skill? That would be cool in my book!

Of course psychology is next in importance. Assuming you don't get a CNS, major organ, or major artery hit the mindset of the target is key. Big bangs from the gun seem to affect this as well (target hears a roar then is hit and unconsciously figures "damn, better fall down"). I'm not sure how you would model this...

[Judas]

As it stands I don't accept that a .45ACP has the same penetration ability as a .357 Magnum. The same wounding ability, maybe. Possibly even better, since it has a bigger, heavier bullet.

IIRC I saw a collection of stats on "one shot stops" that had the .357 with a better stopping percentage than any other round. Not sure why that would be, but hey.

[RMS]

I'm going back to the original post and skipping all the ammo/firearms minutia discussion. I think differentiating between various high(er) powered handguns, rifles, or assault rifles is well below the granularity of BRP.

I'd start from the other end of things here. First, bullets are all very similar (again below the granularity level BRP works at) and should provide similar distributions of damage. It's just that larger/faster ones should have the potential to do more damage. So, I'd decide whether you want bullets to be very random in damage, once they hit, or decide whether you want them to tend towards an average amount of damage with a decent spread. If the former, use a single die for all bullet damage. If the latter, use a pair of dice for all damage.

Next, I'd make sure that minimum damage for any weapon (handheld at least) does not automatically disable a limb. Then, make sure each one has the ability to disable any hit location for a human. (I wouldn't worry about whether it works for general hit points w/o major wounds. Someone playing with that option isn't going to be as concerned about accurate results as those using hit locations or major wound tables.) So, I'd start with something basic like:

2d2 very light hand guns (derringer - how small are they, really?)

2d3 light hand guns (.22)

2d4 medium hand guns (.38)

2d6 heavy hand guns (.357)

2d8 mid-hunting rifles/assault rifle damage

2d10 high powered rifle/lmg round

2d12 hmg round

Avoid any adds, and only do -1 subtractions at most. Personally, I'd stay completely away from trying to differentiate whether a .45 or 9 mm is slightly different in damage. Both do plenty of damage to kill someone with a single shot, and do it often enough that the odds shouldn't be too remote. Both won't do that without a very good (luck?) hit though, so it shouldn't be the norm. Set the probabilities appropriately. Go for the 2d6 or maybe 2d6-1 and you get a an average of 7 or 6 that corresponds to taking out any hit location with an average roll. That drops someone, but doesn't kill them generally. (It'd take an impale to get an outright kill.) OTOH it'd take a heroic roll for that character to continue fighting (ie. "knockdown power"). It strikes me that maybe damage should be a bit, but not a lot, less on average. I'm almost tempted to go with 2d5 or 2d5-1 for an average of 5.5 or 4.5, but both still high enough to take out any hit location with a success and can be fatal with an impale.

Note: If you want people to have better, or trainable chances to continue after such a hit, I'd recommend giving progressive heroic roll chances at CON x5/x4/x3/x2/x1, or allow development of a skill to cover that.

Note 2: I'd recommend working out all of the damage up front for how it should affect unarmored characters. Then go back and deal with ancient and medieval armor and how it protects agains bullets. Then figure in AP rounds, etc. after that.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this, and will work on it a bit more if you want. I always start with the net affect in mind and attempt to produce a probability model that makes a reasonable match to that. I don't care about exact representations or comparisons since that can't be done. What can be done are reasonable approximations: should average damage kill, disable, severely wound, lightely wound; should maximum damage....; should minium damage....

[Atgxtg]

2d2 very light hand guns (derringer - how small are they, really?)

2d3 light hand guns (.22)

2d4 medium hand guns (.38)

2d6 heavy hand guns (.357)

2d8 mid-hunting rifles/assault rifle damage

2d10 high powered rifle/lmg round

2d12 hmg round

Both do plenty of damage to kill someone with a single shot, and do it often enough that the odds shouldn't be too remote.

[Atgxtg]

All this talk is fun but in the long run kind of irrelevant. Are we talking a 158 grain +P hollowpoint round through a 6" barrel, or a 110 grain standard loading FMJ round from a 2" barrel? There are so many thousands of combinations of bullet types, bullet weights, powder charges, barrel lengths, etc. that the variation requires either very long weapon lists, or a few basic categories (light, medium, heavy, very heavy) with enough variation in the damage. I've seen tests of .38 Special rounds with velocities from 6-700 FPS to over 1100 FPS with bullets of the same diameter and almost identical weights from the same gun. What's the damage from a .38?

That is why I want to base the damage on the military standard ball ammunition. Once we do that, it becomes easy to do...

...a gigantic weapon list with tons of weapons with various barrel lengths and ammo choices!

I know a few RPGs that do that, some quite well. 3G3 for Timelords is probably the best of the bunch in that line.

Anyway, the undisputed number one factor in "stopping power" is shot placement. Skill means more than bullet size, weight, magazine capacity, how cool it looks, what "special forces" guys use, or what some guy told you.

Maybe +1 point of damage per 10 or 20 points in the skill? That would be cool in my book!

Yup. Shot placement is #1. And I do like the idea of better rolls doing more damage, but that would be more along the lines of a major revision to all of combat (skill certainly counts with swords). We do sort of have that anyway with special and critical successes.

Of course psychology is next in importance. Assuming you don't get a CNS, major organ, or major artery hit the mindset of the target is key. Big bangs from the gun seem to affect this as well (target hears a roar then is hit and unconsciously figures "damn, better fall down"). I'm not sure how you would model this...

From what I've read only the Brain and Spine hits are instant kill/disablement. Everything else is psychological, since it is going to take at least a round for the target to bleed out. Usually longer.

Probably a Will roll. Since Will is POW in BRP, then a Luck roll. If using CoC SAN rules they would world too. Being hit by a bullet would certainly be a shock.

But agian, that is if we wanted to go to that level with it. Getting your arm hacked off with an axe is at least equally traumatic, and lethal.

[Enpeze]

Maybe +1 point of damage per 10 or 20 points in the skill? That would be cool in my book!

I dont think this is the best way to go. A better skill does already improve your ability to place aimed shots in lethal zones like head or chest. So a high skilled shooter is already deadlier when he use the spot rules for "aimed shots". Enhancing it further would make not much sense, IMO.

[Judas]

I dont think this is the best way to go. A better skill does already improve your ability to place aimed shots in lethal zones like head or chest. So a high skilled shooter is already deadlier when he use the spot rules for "aimed shots". Enhancing it further would make not much sense, IMO.

True enough, and as Atgxtg said we already have crits and impales. I was just musing.

[Judas]

From what I've read only the Brain and Spine hits are instant kill/disablement. Everything else is psychological, since it is going to take at least a round for the target to bleed out. Usually longer.

I think there are some things that are pretty good at dropping a living target besides CNS hits, if not instant than out of the fight pretty quick. Things that stop breathing (like multiple lung punctures coupled with an artery spewing into the lungs or a bad diaphram hit), cause extreme pain or panic (groin hits, thigh hits that cause a friggin fountain of blood from the femoral) and the like. Sure a CNS is the only guaranteed instant drop, but being shot through the heart will really sap the ability to fight pretty quick.

[Atgxtg]

I think there are some things that are pretty good at dropping a living target besides CNS hits, if not instant than out of the fight pretty quick. Things that stop breathing (like multiple lung punctures coupled with an artery spewing into the lungs or a bad diaphram hit), cause extreme pain or panic (groin hits, thigh hits that cause a friggin fountain of blood from the femoral) and the like. Sure a CNS is the only guaranteed instant drop, but being shot through the heart will really sap the ability to fight pretty quick.

Oh yeah. No argument. It is just that such things are not guaranteed to prevent the other guy from shooting back before he drops dead. That is the real bitch in gunfights. Getting killed by the guy who you have already killed by who didn't have the good graces to fall over and die like he should have.

Most wounds take time to kill you. Modern police forces training warns them that even if they shoot someone, they can expect the guy to be functional for a minimum of 10 seconds. Pretty much all the one hit stop% numbers you see are fictitious. Especially for handguns.

In fact, pretty much all the "this weapon does have stopping power" case example over the years involve shooting at highly motivated/fanatical people who didn't drop when they got hit.

If you look up real word data, from any era you will see that the vast majority of fatalities happen after the battle. In the modern era, survival rate from gunshots is over 98% if they can get the victim medical attention. I used to work in a trauma center, and I can only recall one or two people actually dying from their gunshot wounds.

Some pretty good games use a WIL roll mechanic to handle things like stopping power. If we wanted to go that route in BRP we could require a Luck roll or match POW vs. the damage on the resistance table to see if the character can act. It really is mostly "Will he act" not "can he act".

[SDLeary]

I would like to suggest that for ballistic armour, rather than adding a penetration value, a method that is based on the RQ3 spell Damage Resistance be used.

For flexible armour (no inserts), rather than no damage though, if the roll IS made, the shot does half damage, and causes no bleeding. If a single shot is twice the value, or higher, then the shot does full damage.

For Rigid armour, as per damage resistance.

Somewhat easier than developing a whole slew of penetration values and AP values for objects, unless of course thats your thing! ;-)

Thoughts?

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

I would like to suggest that for ballistic armour, rather than adding a penetration value, a method that is based on the RQ3 spell Damage Resistance be used.

For flexible armour (no inserts), rather than no damage though, if the roll IS made, the shot does half damage, and causes no bleeding. If a single shot is twice the value, or higher, then the shot does full damage.

For Rigid armour, as per damage resistance.

Somewhat easier than developing a whole slew of penetration values and AP values for objects, unless of course thats your thing! ;-)

Thoughts?

SDLeary

Well a few,

First the changes doesn't address the problem-that is that a wide damage roll will cause some weapons to perform erratically against ballistic armor.

Secondly, the rule would serious weaken body armor-to the point of it not being worth the bother. A half damage hit from a rifle will probably disable a location or cause a major wound. The high NIJ rated armor is designed to prevent that. A .32 round fired inot a Class III vest should do less damage than if fired into a Class II or Class I vest.

There is no real difference in protection with the Damage Resiistance approach. A 15 point vest might work more often than an 8 point vest, but both would still only give 1/2 damage protection.

[Nightshade]

Well a few,

First the changes doesn't address the problem-that is that a wide damage roll will cause some weapons to perform erratically against ballistic armor.

Secondly, the rule would serious weaken body armor-to the point of it not being worth the bother. A half damage hit from a rifle will probably disable a location or cause a major wound. The high NIJ rated armor is designed to prevent that. A .32 round fired inot a Class III vest should do less damage than if fired into a Class II or Class I vest.

There is no real difference in protection with the Damage Resiistance approach. A 15 point vest might work more often than an 8 point vest, but both would still only give 1/2 damage protection.

You could do something with degrees of success and a resistance value:

Fumble: Target takes full value of damage.

Fail: Target removes some minimal value (say one point per die or the armor value, whichever is lower).

Success: Target takes half value.

Special: Target takes 1 point per die.

Critical: Target takes no damage.

And it could be adjusted based on what effect you want. The resistance value could even be set so it always goes against the average result of a given damage roll, making the varience problem largely become an issue of damage to target, rather than armor issues.