Sorcery in the East Isles

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Martalak is one of the anti-gods, too, like Babadi (Octamonist Mostali). Eastern use of antigods is more pragmatic than say Praxian use of broos. Several are admirable to the Easterners if they acknowledge Vithelan civilized mores - Herespur, Kahar, Harantara, and others.

There are degrees of antigodliness, and I think the definition of antigod is not consistent, certainly over historical time. I remember @metcalph at one stage saying that he thought Parloth vs Antigods was really about Above and Below, not mystic vs everyone else, and I disagreed with him strongly at the time, but now I think there is some sense to it (though it’s not ‘official’). Maybe it once was defined more that way, and otherwise was a bit looser in definition. And then the Three Sages and the Empire of Mokato systemised everything in a very mysticism centric way, and invented or popularised the idea of Sheradpara (‘when we say you are an antigod, we don’t necessarily mean evil, just wrong. But you are wrong’), a so redefined Sheradpara, so they could make the definition of antigod as ‘not-mystic’ - there is definitely some sleight of hand there, though. I think the average East Islander tends to treat the idea of Sheradpara, as something the sages lecture you about, and don’t really get get too hung up on the exact definition of antigod, no one pays much attention to pragmatically. And most mystics don’t even get very hung up on the strict binary division of the world into godly and anti godly - after all, they are mystics.
But Andins, Eresteenes, are clearly actual monsters. 

 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 8:54 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

There are hundreds of sorcery spells. Some are logically arranged together as an organized philosophy, while others might be tied in deeply with an understanding of martial arts and emphasize harmony between body, mind, and cosmos.

I want to make the distinction here between the theory and practice. I think some forms of sorcery absolutely share their theoretical basis with schools of martial arts. But that doesn’t mean that martial arts and sorcery are the same practice. Rather, it’s more like the way some traditional Chinese martial arts eg tai chi (I’m a practitioner, and have read some of the classic texts), Chinese traditional medicine, and some Taoist sorcery, can have a lot of theory in common, lots of stuff about channels of chi etc, but they are quite different practices that must be learnt and developed separately. 

[Ormi Phengaria]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

I want to make the distinction here between the theory and practice. I think some forms of sorcery absolutely share their theoretical basis with schools of martial arts. But that doesn’t mean that martial arts and sorcery are the same practice. Rather, it’s more like the way some traditional Chinese martial arts eg tai chi (I’m a practitioner, and have read some of the classic texts), Chinese traditional medicine, and some Taoist sorcery, can have a lot of theory in common, lots of stuff about channels of chi etc, but they are quite different practices that must be learnt and developed separately. 

The relationship here is probably similar to the rule which caps all sorcery to a Read/Write skill in the CRB. Possibly Open Seas uses another skill, too.

[davecake]

11 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Possibly Open Seas uses another skill, too.

In the draft version, it doesn’t use any skill and is cast able by non-sorcerers, but is noted as being unusual. 

[davecake]

12 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The relationship here is probably similar to the rule which caps all sorcery to a Read/Write skill in the CRB.

Maybe. Martial Arts skill is a knowledge skill, after all.

[metcalph]

I'm currently thinking of the Valkarists as a traditional Malkioni school. Their God is Martalak rather Makan but that just makes them the same as the Carmanians who worship Idovanus but are still Malkioni.  I don't think the distinction that the Middle Sea Empire made between Makan and Malkioneran is at all relevant these days.  The Valkarists were opposed to the God Learners not over the nature of the Cosmos but about the teachings of Pilif (a wizard who attempted to seize power in Seshnela).  They fled to the Eastern Isles to set up their perfect society and were tolerated by the Middle Sea Empire in that they had a common enemy in the Eastern Seas Empire.

Therer would be a great deal of interchange in magics between the Valkarists and the Sages.  For example my suggested Sagely magics of reducing runic affinities could be inverted by the Valkarists to make their Spearmen more potent with the magic of the Gods.  The Sages will view this as an entanglement in the world but the Valkarists don't care - they are content with the Mind of Martalak.

The Zenshin of Vormain are probably sorcerors.  I'm enthusiastic as the next guy about introducing non-Japanese elements to Vormain in that I've pondered having the Githyo clan as having Githyanki hairstyles.  Rather than collect magical energies from the land for use in their own magical projects with a fair bit going to strengthening the nobles and the army, the Zenshin spend their magics in great feats of magical engineering to make the Joserui more potent.  The Vormaini landscape has a faintly contrived feel with magical dams and reservoirs dotting the countryside willy-nilly.  They make little consideration for the ordinary people such that a haunt for demonic spirits might lie less than a stone's throw away from a mortal village.  

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

While that is true, I am still waiting for some of the semi-sorcerous cult descriptions to make sense of how RQG intends to cover spells like Open Seas for non-sorcerers, or how the special magics of Pavis and Flintnail are supposed to work under that regime.

Outside of RQG, there might be more room for "misapplied sorcery".

While editiing Ian's manuscripts for the new Pavis material, I suggested a variant of sorcery which could be used by non-sorcerers.

Basically, just a fully memorised invocation that does one thing, and one thing only. It can't be manipulated by them in anyway, and so all variables are fixed. It's still not easy to cast, and that's why it has its own skill percentage.

Currently, Ian's put them in the 'for later consideration' pile.

[metcalph]

Zenshin thoughts (aka making sense of Vormaini colour magic).

While the western sorcerers split sorcery into six techniques, each based on the five actions, it seems to me that the Zenshin might base it on the colours instead.  Their techniques are not concerned with the origin of the Cosmos but in describing current reality.  Since several Vormaini Gods are denoted as being in charge of those magics, their worshippers might receive special sorceries depending on how close they are to their god (analogous to western caste magic but I'm probably reaching).  The Imperial Caste have access to all colour blessings while the Zenshin have their own "curses" instead.

 

 

 

[davecake]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:33 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Basically, just a fully memorised invocation that does one thing, and one thing only. It can't be manipulated by them in anyway, and so all variables are fixed. It's still not easy to cast, and that's why it has its own skill percentage.

The Open Seas spell seems to be this. Non Sorcerers can cast it reliably, sorcerers may be able to do a bit more (though this may be limited - possibly they can just cast it a bit more efficiently). But it’s described as being unusual.

It may possibly also be limited to rituals. 

[davecake]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, metcalph said:

I'm currently thinking of the Valkarists as a traditional Malkioni school. Their God is Martalak rather Makan but that just makes them the same as the Carmanians who worship Idovanus but are still Malkioni.  I don't think the distinction that the Middle Sea Empire made between Makan and Malkioneran is at all relevant these days.  The Valkarists were opposed to the God Learners not over the nature of the Cosmos but about the teachings of Pilif (a wizard who attempted to seize power in Seshnela).  They fled to the Eastern Isles to set up their perfect society and were tolerated by the Middle Sea Empire in that they had a common enemy in the Eastern Seas Empire.

Why do you think the Valkarists think of themselves as Martalak sorcerers? It's seems strange to me. Martalak can be considered the name of a local sorcerer tradition that seems quite manifestly inferior to a Middle Sea Empire era sorcerer. Or Martalak can be considered a local myth about sorcery that chiefly differs from Malkioni myth in that its main point is the inferiority of sorcery to mysticism - to agree that they are followers of Martalak is to agree that they are (nobly) wrong. And the Sheradpara doctrine is one promulgated largely by the Three Sages of the Eastern Seas Empire, whose main interaction with Valkaro is that he went to war against the Empire. Plus Martalak is of pre-Dawn origin, so Malkioni identifying themselves with Martalak would be to reject Hrestol? Valkaro preached the way of Malkion and converted the natives of the Ambovombe and surrounds. If they worshipped Martalak, that would seem a lot more like Valkaro being converted to East Island ways. 

Not that the Martalak sorcerers themselves care much about any of this - for them sorcery is a profession, not a religion. 

I agree with you that it matters very little which exact conception of Malkion the Valkarists believe. They probably haven't interacted a great deal with other Malkioni for centuries, and have no great incentive to start now given there are relatively few in the entire Eastern half of the lozenge. And are clearly heretics by orthodox Malkioni standards for their Pilifism anyway. My mention of Makanism vs Malkioneranism is more about method than theology. Mainstream Makanism derives knowledge from study of the Abiding Book and other law (and even holds that empiricism can be a source of error, pure intellect being superior to perception), Malkioneranism includes much more active hero questing (and more sinisterly, has its origins in Nysaloran era texts, so may have been a source of corruption of Malkionism by Illuminated ideas (whether Nysaloran or Arkati who can say). I think it seems much more likely that Valkaro fell on the Malkioneranist side of that divide, and his ideas about method (a more flexible relationship to theology, frequent otherworld exploration (that seems to happen a lot in Domdanalash with its tunnels into the underworld), and exploitation of the pagans resources) have probably held largely to this day. If anyone wants to make the Valkarists great villains (rather than the Le Guin derived image of gentle wizards of vaguely Taoist bent), Valkaro can certainly be cast as an arch-colonialist and/or the source of God Learner corruption that leads the Valkarists to repeat the God Learners mistakes. 

 

On 6/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, metcalph said:

Therer would be a great deal of interchange in magics between the Valkarists and the Sages.  For example my suggested Sagely magics of reducing runic affinities could be inverted by the Valkarists to make their Spearmen more potent with the magic of the Gods.  The Sages will view this as an entanglement in the world but the Valkarists don't care - they are content with the Mind of Martalak.

I think this only makes sense if your supposition that the Sages are actually sorcerers holds true, which I still think highly unlikely on several grounds. 

The Valkarists would be fairly effective as a naval power based on sea and weather magic, but not all of the Spearmen even seem to be warriors. They seem to be historically in regular conflict with both the Ludoch of the Alsporanjabbi tribe, and the Vormaino, and certainly conflict with the Vormaino heats up in the early Hero Wars era with the Reconquest of the Pure Lands. 

[davecake]

The problem with the zenshin as sorcerers is that there is quite limited reason to think they are (apart from the description of Zaktirra), and their description as serving the gods and spirits of Vormain would suggest they are anything but sorcerers. If anything, it would suggest they are largely shamans.

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, davecake said:

Why do you think the Valkarists think of themselves as Martalak sorcerers?

This is like asking why do the Carmanians think of themselves as sorcerers of Idovanus?  They explored the local mythology.  Makan is just a name for which the God Learners coined for the Invisible God.  By identifying their Invisible God with Martalak, the Valkarists become part of a new mythology and avoid the God Learner baggage (e.g. gift carriers and other dooms).  

I really don't know where many of your statements about Martalak come from ("manifestly inferior to the God Learners") and many of your inferences seem questionable.  So what if Maratalak was the cult of two-bit hedge wizards in the Dawn Age?   Obviously Valkaro made him something more.   Concerns that Valkaro might be rejecting Hrestolism seem out of place considering the Valkarist society puts the Wizards in charge or everything!

The Malkioni largely does not care about the names of their gods.  They only care that their gods are bigger and better than everybody else's.  Look at the ease which the Seshnegi cast aside their own storm god, Aerlit, and gave pride of place to Orlanth in their monomyth.  The Valkarists would have no particular respect for Makan or the Abiding Book as they are both inventions of their corrupt Jrusteli tormenters.  They wouldn't particularly care for the traditional castes as they practice a truncated version that serves their own ideology (ie Wizards Rulz).  

I'm not a great fan of thinking that internal doctrinal disputes of the God Learners would have any relevance to the Eastern Isles.  They don't in Seshnela (where many of the verses of the Abiding Book got scrapped) or Fronela (who condemned the philosophy as evil but kept the heroquesting that supposedly was a bad thing).  The Valkarists IMO are neither good or bad - they are strange wizards in a stranger land.  There's nothing particularly objectionable about the wizards going on to the hero plane to do awesome magics as they wouldn't be impressive magicians if they didn't.  The error of the God Learners was that they took all this onto the next level on steroids and that did them in.  

As for the external relations of the Valkarists, I don't see any evidence for frequent conflicts with the Coral Queendom and simply because the Vormaini regularly leave their lands does not mean all those migrations are violent invasions.  I could easily see Ambovombe as having a large minority of Vormaini and the adoption of some of their magics by the Valkarists themselves.  

 

 

[metcalph]

45 minutes ago, davecake said:

The problem with the zenshin as sorcerers is that there is quite limited reason to think they are (apart from the description of Zaktirra), and their description as serving the gods and spirits of Vormain would suggest they are anything but sorcerers. If anything, it would suggest they are largely shamans.

Except that philosophers can and have been used to strengthen the Gods.  A good example is Khormesha, the Philosopher of Light at Raibanth (Glorious ReAscent p40) who did much to recover the myths of the Anaxial Dynastry (Glorious ReAscent p39).  Even the God Learners did this (The Glorantha Sourcebook p70 describes their "revival and unification of the Elder Cults" and I strongly believe that the Seshnegi embiggening of their ancestors in the Dawn Age (cults of Prax p14) was carried out by their wizards through similar methods.   Now it's not standard behaviour for the Malkioni of today who prefer to tax the temple of their magics for their own purposes but merely being a sorceror or philosopher does not make you an enemy of the Gods.  

[metcalph]

One way in which the Zenshin might work.

The size of the temples is based on the number of worshippers (RQG p284).  Now inferring heavily from what Jeff has said about the magic of a Humakti in in Seshnela, it is my belief that the Zzaburi skim a large part of the worship from the temples into their own magical coffers, effectively busting most temples (nobility exempt) down a size or two.  How they do this is yet unknown.  Perhaps an enchanted votive image?  Perhaps the temple is ensorcelled? 

Now the Zenshin would take the opposite approach.  They might enchant a suitable rock near an earth temple so that it sends magic points to the temple.  Enough rocks and the temple is increased in size.  The magic may simply be inscribed runes or awakening the spirit of the rock.  The most common Zenshin is not a sorcerer seeking power but a magical landscaper.  

Vormain might also be closer to the gods through in a way similar to the Holy Country of the Proximate Holy Realm.  Again this is something that the Zenshin would spend their lives labouring and improving.  

[davecake]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

This is like asking why do the Carmanians think of themselves as sorcerers of Idovanus?  They explored the local mythology. 

I don't think it is. The figure of Martalak is part of a mythic cycle whose main point is that sorcery is weak and a bad idea, and reinforced by their ideological enemies specifically to say they are wrong. It's not equivalent to the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerer of Idovanus - it's the equivalent of the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerers of Malakinus. Or Aeolians calling their zzaburi caste meldeks. There literally are not any myths of Martalak without the underlying message that sorcery is in some way wrong or inferior to mysticism - so why would the Valkarists decide to identify themselves as inferior? Plus it makes no sense for them to do so while identifying as Malkioni. Its also poor quality God Learning, too, implying their exploration of the local mythology was lazy or shallow - Martalak isn't a cognate of Makan (you could make some sort of claim for anyone in the 'central' part of the various Dancer triads (Vith, Korudel, etc as being cognate to Makan), but Martalak, as specifically a sorcerer, is cognate to Zzabur. 

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

Makan is just a name for which the God Learners coined for the Invisible God. 

So they call it something else. I don't think I ever said the Valkarists do revere Makan, that would have been mainstream in Valkaro's era but if Valkaro is really inspired by Pilif and the early New Order he might be more revisionist in other ways and teach about Kionvara, or be more reactionary Hrestoli and revere Ferbrith etc. Valkaro was a God Learner sorcerer, though, and he largely thought that God Learner sorcerers deserved more power not less, so revering Makan doesn't seem too out of line either. I think we both agree that the modern Valkarists are going to be far less obsessed with the finer points of Malkioni theology than in the God Learner era. But Martalak is a name for something else, and more or less a slur on sorcery at that. 

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

I really don't know where many of your statements about Martalak come from ("manifestly inferior to the God Learners")

The other references to Martalak make them seem to be more or less charm making village sorcerers, while the God Learners at the time were conquering the world and the otherworld. Can you point to anything that implies they aren't inferior to the God Learners in magical ability? Anything at all that even suggests it?