Sorcery in the East Isles

[Mark Mohrfield]

How common is it there, and are there any traditions other than the Valkarist sect?

[metcalph]

Zaktirra of Vormain and Martalak are known practitioners of sorcery.  I also believe that the Sages (Nenduren etc) use sorcery to transform their souls (rather than pointless external effects as the Westerners do). 

Edited June 8, 2023 by metcalph

[Joerg]

As in Kralorela, knowledge-based magic should be prevalent in the East.

When he still adamantly held on to the Three Different Worlds model, Greg pronounced that Martial Arts abilities might be modeled as sorcery. Manga-Daoist-like wards might be an option.

[metcalph]

Addressing the commonality of sorcery in the East Isles:

Most of the Eastern Islanders worship their local Parondpara with a minority worshipping the Parloth and Avanparloth. That is, they are members of Rune and Spirit Cults.  The worshippers of Korudel would know some sorcery (as, like Buserian and Lhankor Mhy, he is a face of the Knowing God there) but it's really only knowledge spells rather than full-blown manipulation of the Cosmos.

Sorcerers proper (full-time casters of sorcery spells) would be rare outside the Jabbi Isles and Vormain.  That said, the Middle Sea Empire controlled the western isles (up to the Boil and the Andin and Pearl Isles going by Jeff's map) so they people of those places would have more experience of sorcerers than those from the Five Chains, Hanfarador and Mokato.

 

[Joerg]

I don't expect the Malkioni methods of spellcraft to be used in Eastern sorcery one-on-one. RQ3 Elder Secrets suggested using (the campaign and the extra rules of) RQ3 Land of Ninja for Vormain. While RQ3 sorcery has since been abandoned as a model for Glorantha (and despite attempts made with Arlaten and the Coders in Strangers of Prax, or perhaps because of Arlaten, with good cause), the Mandala-based sorcery for Land of Ninja might be salvaged a bit. (Not so sure about the Ki Skills as mystical abilities, but why not?)

[JRE]

Just to mix things up a bit, I would have Kralorelans using sorcery, among other magics, and it being their own development and not an import of the False Dragon Ring, though they probably coopted local sorcerers into their plot. I base this mainly on the presence of "tame" dwarves around Kralorela, which would be the source of the knowledge, as well as integrating it into the Imperial system. 

That would make it use the main system but with a different bent and interacting with all the other magics.

That also justifies having Vormaini sorcery without having to depend on the Jrusteli.

However, with sorcery only barely sketched I will not dare to propose what are the differences between East and West, though I agree most users will be more similar to Lhankhor Mhy sages with a narrow set of spells (sea and ship magics, while others have long term personal enhancements).

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, JRE said:

Just to mix things up a bit, I would have Kralorelans using sorcery, among other magics, and it being their own development and not an import of the False Dragon Ring, though they probably coopted local sorcerers into their plot. I base this mainly on the presence of "tame" dwarves around Kralorela, which would be the source of the knowledge, as well as integrating it into the Imperial system. 

That would make it use the main system but with a different bent and interacting with all the other magics.

That also justifies having Vormaini sorcery without having to depend on the Jrusteli.

However, with sorcery only barely sketched I will not dare to propose what are the differences between East and West, though I agree most users will be more similar to Lhankhor Mhy sages with a narrow set of spells (sea and ship magics, while others have long term personal enhancements).

As far as I understand Glorantha, pretty much all civilized countries have had sorcerers since mythical times.  Since the Vadeli reached Pamaltela and the Waertagi Prax and Peloria, it's no stretch to assume knowledge of sorcery would have reached Kralorela and the Eastern Isles if they had not already invented it then.  My own beliefe is that they did invent it independently, but received great wisdom from the Malkioni in mythical times such that a) they can honestly claim to have invented it themselves and b) the Malkioni can honestly think they taught sorcery to the Eastern islanders.  

The dwarves aren't really sorcery users and I prefer to think that most civilized humans could come up with the principles of sorcery themselves rather than decipher dwarven magic.      

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, JRE said:

Just to mix things up a bit, I would have Kralorelans using sorcery, among other magics, and it being their own development and not an import of the False Dragon Ring, though they probably coopted local sorcerers into their plot. I base this mainly on the presence of "tame" dwarves around Kralorela, which would be the source of the knowledge, as well as integrating it into the Imperial system. 

That would make it use the main system but with a different bent and interacting with all the other magics.

That also justifies having Vormaini sorcery without having to depend on the Jrusteli.

I'm not sure it needs 'tame dwarfs', nor do I think it requires Jrusteli. I do like having the Kralorelans, Vormaino, and East Isles with sorcery, and could have a number of sources including the mystic traditions, dragon teachings, and even the gods of the East. One of the things I would include in cults of the east would be specific cult traditions in sorcery along with spirit magic and Rune magic. Gives it a different flavor.

[davecake]

In RQ3, sorcery was considered the most common magic of the East Isles and used in place of Spirit Magic, but that is no longer at all compatible with the Sorcery rules or general conception of sorcery - and there isn't really a distinct statement on sorcery since. And there really isn't much since, except the few Jonstown Compendium books. 

On 6/8/2023 at 5:29 AM, metcalph said:

I also believe that the Sages (Nenduren etc) use sorcery to transform their souls (rather than pointless external effects as the Westerners do). 

I don't think this is true. The great mystics use mysticism. But hybrid traditions surely exist. 

On 6/8/2023 at 4:31 PM, Joerg said:

When he still adamantly held on to the Three Different Worlds model, Greg pronounced that Martial Arts abilities might be modeled as sorcery.

I think this interpretation made sense in the Hero Wars era. But the conception of sorcery has changed a lot since then, and I don't think it works any more. 

I now think that, in rules terms, the closest match is modelling martial arts abilities on shamanic abilities, which matches the idea of VenFornism originating in shamanic techniques. 

On 6/8/2023 at 5:25 PM, metcalph said:

Most of the Eastern Islanders worship their local Parondpara with a minority worshipping the Parloth and Avanparloth. That is, they are members of Rune and Spirit Cults.  The worshippers of Korudel would know some sorcery (as, like Buserian and Lhankor Mhy, he is a face of the Knowing God there) but it's really only knowledge spells rather than full-blown manipulation of the Cosmos.

I'm not sure the knowledge gods of the East Isles necessarily know sorcery (after all, both Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are more centred on Rune magic than sorcery) but it's certainly possible. The discussion of sorcery in Revealed Mythologies is that sorcerers who follow the Martalak tradition of sorcery are '

sorcerers, alchemists, enchanters, and charm makers' ie professional magicians, but generally not great or powerful ones. 

On 6/8/2023 at 5:42 PM, Joerg said:

RQ3 Elder Secrets suggested using (the campaign and the extra rules of) RQ3 Land of Ninja for Vormain.

Which was another way of saying 'if you want to play in Gloranthan-psuedo-Japan, we wrote a whole Japan box. I think we can do better. It's true that most Vormaino magic seems to be fitted into their 'colour magic' system but we don't know much more than that. I'd rather try to understand more about Vormain magic rather than just use the Land of Ninja rules because we have them. 

On 6/8/2023 at 5:42 PM, Joerg said:

(Not so sure about the Ki Skills as mystical abilities, but why not?)

I think they actually work pretty well for the Hodaran mystic tradition, and actually wouldn't be too bad for martial arts 'mystic strikes' in general. 

22 hours ago, JRE said:

Just to mix things up a bit, I would have Kralorelans using sorcery, among other magics, and it being their own development and not an import of the False Dragon Ring, though they probably coopted local sorcerers into their plot.

I tend to think that the native East Isles sorcery mostly is essentially just Western sorcery with centuries of cultural drift. Martalak the East Isles sorcery 'god' is always referred to as having learnt sorcery in the West, and living in the West ('Heonarmalo'). But in those cen)turies, there could easily have been a lot of Kralorelan influence, and some (at least) Kralorelan sorcery is a native development, especially that associated with the Thalurzni alchemy tradition. I don't think the False Dragon Ring sorcery has much influence in the East Isles (especially as a I suspect they did not get on with the Valkarists). 

 

22 hours ago, metcalph said:

As far as I understand Glorantha, pretty much all civilized countries have had sorcerers since mythical times. 

Yes! And the East Islanders at least claim their Martalak sorcerers date from mythical times. 

22 hours ago, metcalph said:

My own beliefe is that they did invent it independently, but received great wisdom from the Malkioni in mythical times such that a) they can honestly claim to have invented it themselves and b) the Malkioni can honestly think they taught sorcery to the Eastern islanders.  

The East Islanders do not seem to claim their invented it themselves, as Martalak is said to have learnt it in the West, but they do claim their tradition is preferable because Martalak got humbled by Vith, and so knows his limits. The Malkioni probably do claim that the East Islanders obviously learnt sorcery that is of Malkioni origin, but are also a bit suspicious once you start asking from which Malkioni, as the answer could be the Viymorni. 

I think some East Isles sorcery may be learnt from Mostali, but for most East Islanders that makes it suspiciously anti-godly. Though the Valkarists, if rumour is to be believed that the caverns beneath Domdanalash extend into the Mostali underworld, would seem to have cordial, or even cozy, relationships with the Mostali. 

The Valkarists I tend to treat as pretty heavily influenced by Le Guin's Earthsea books - so the Magic Men are professional highly trained wizards, rather than sages who do a little sorcery on the side, and with a few other skills like knowing how to handle a boat. A bit broader in capacity and more capable of acting independently than most Malkioni sorcerers, probably because of the fancy training they receive at the very magical Domdanalash (which of course is half Domdaniel of the Arabian Nights etc, but half Roke of the Earthsea books). While the Valkarists started as sorcery fanatics, I think they have gradually incorporated some acceptance of mysticism into their world view (more the psuedo-Taoist Larn Hasamador, both in keeping with Le Guin's own Taoism (her version of the Tao De Ching is excellent) and acknowledging that practically both Mashunasan's Orthodox mysticism, and becoming a powerful sorcerer, are very time consuming)

 

[metcalph]

49 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think this is true. The great mystics use mysticism. But hybrid traditions surely exist. 

Could you at least write your own opinions to the original question rather than going line by line through other peoples?  At the very least it's much more readable.

 

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The Valkarists I tend to treat as pretty heavily influenced by Le Guin's Earthsea books - so the Magic Men are professional highly trained wizards, rather than sages who do a little sorcery on the side, and with a few other skills like knowing how to handle a boat. A bit broader in capacity and more capable of acting independently than most Malkioni sorcerers, probably because of the fancy training they receive at the very magical Domdanalash (which of course is half Domdaniel of the Arabian Nights etc, but half Roke of the Earthsea books). While the Valkarists started as sorcery fanatics, I think they have gradually incorporated some acceptance of mysticism into their world view (more the psuedo-Taoist Larn Hasamador, both in keeping with Le Guin's own Taoism (her version of the Tao De Ching is excellent) and acknowledging that practically both Mashunasan's Orthodox mysticism, and becoming a powerful sorcerer, are very time consuming)

That would suggest to me that they'd use a LOT more specific Runes in their sorcery - if following an Earthsea version. And, each Control type spell would only work on one very specific entity (if keeping the Naming as an essential feature). This would certainly make their sorcery unique!

[Ormi Phengaria]

17 hours ago, davecake said:

I think this interpretation made sense in the Hero Wars era. But the conception of sorcery has changed a lot since then, and I don't think it works any more. 

It's been suggested recently:

"There are hundreds of sorcery spells. Some are logically arranged together as an organized philosophy, while others might be tied in deeply with an understanding of martial arts and emphasize harmony between body, mind, and cosmos. Some spells are widely known and are self-sufficient like Dormal’s Open Seas spell. Others require significant theoretical underpinnings to understand and cast."

17 hours ago, davecake said:

I now think that, in rules terms, the closest match is modelling martial arts abilities on shamanic abilities, which matches the idea of VenFornism originating in shamanic techniques. 

Note that in Revealed Mythologies, both Sivoli and Kamboli are considered to be Venforn as well as his students. The relationship here is likely more abstract than restriction to a single magical paradigm— Ven Forn was the Immense Master because his teaching encompassed everything. What I see this implying is that his ways may resemble shamanic powers, but split down the middle.

Sivoli took the taboos/austerities, and might've used the power this granted him in some sorcerous fashion. Kamboli's way could be interpreted as shamanic abilities without the taboos, and perhaps circumventing the extremes of self-sacrifice (i.e, in RQG, characteristic point loss.) The primary risk noted is sliding into antigod practices. Both of them, by their methods, meet ends which are flawed from a more traditional shamanic perspective. Sivoli tries to separate himself from the world in a manner similar to Refutation, but in the end loses himself all at once to the Mother of Erdires. Kamboli does not integrate the world into himself, but dissolves into the world unsatisfied with his life.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Ormi Phengaria

[Joerg]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

In RQ3, sorcery was considered the most common magic of the East Isles and used in place of Spirit Magic, but that is no longer at all compatible with the Sorcery rules or general conception of sorcery - and there isn't really a distinct statement on sorcery since.

While that is true, I am still waiting for some of the semi-sorcerous cult descriptions to make sense of how RQG intends to cover spells like Open Seas for non-sorcerers, or how the special magics of Pavis and Flintnail are supposed to work under that regime.

Outside of RQG, there might be more room for "misapplied sorcery".

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

(Three Worlds model in HQ1 using a form of sorcery aka knowledge-based magic for certain magical martial arts effects)

I think this interpretation made sense in the Hero Wars era. But the conception of sorcery has changed a lot since then, and I don't think it works any more.

Unless one makes use of the Open Seas precedent.

RQG has the Meditation skill, which would be useful for oriental martial arts (other than the RQ3 "do double damage with natural weapons" interpretation).

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I now think that, in rules terms, the closest match is modelling martial arts abilities on shamanic abilities, which matches the idea of VenFornism originating in shamanic techniques. 

Effectively gifts and taboos, or gifts and geases.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I'm not sure the knowledge gods of the East Isles necessarily know sorcery (after all, both Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are more centred on Rune magic than sorcery) but it's certainly possible. The discussion of sorcery in Revealed Mythologies is that sorcerers who follow the Martalak tradition of sorcery are '

sorcerers, alchemists, enchanters, and charm makers' ie professional magicians, but generally not great or powerful ones. 

Charm-makers and charm-users is basically where I see eastern Gloranthan sorcery.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

Which was another way of saying 'if you want to play in Gloranthan-psuedo-Japan, we wrote a whole Japan box.

Vormain has gained a little depth in Revealed Mythologies and the Guide compared to that dry statement, but there are certain parallels which still apply. Ninja's kami have become the Guide's joserui.

Overall, I see Vormain not as a parallel to Japan, but as the highland refuge of Imperial Vithela after Govmeranen got drowned, a continuation of that solar empire. Whether it has a warrior caste with similar concepts of honor as the Tokugawa shogunate or earlier Samurai may remain open to debate.

Ninja acknowledges its "this is how you take concepts from various eras in Japan's history for your alternate Japan roleplaying" approach, outlining some of the preceding conditions. Without much serious study of Japanese history in detail, I would let the excellent Land of Ninja box (or book, in the Games Workshop edition) linger as an option to pull some local color while trying to offer some keet and antigod weirdness as the main theme. If you say viridian, that's just fancy speak for green, similar to use of the greek terms for the elements (stygian, aeolian, chthonic...) is just fancy language, too.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I'd rather try to understand more about Vormain magic rather than just use the Land of Ninja rules because we have them. 

As far as I am concerned, Vormaino "color magic" is just a form of synesthesia when experiencing the magic, The colors lean on adjacent runes, so in the end we have a runic classification of Vormain magic hiding behind a rainbow.

The question remains whether the Vormain archetypes who rule over the colors offer rune magic as per RQG cults or whether they offer some knowledge-based system of charms powered by something different than rune point pools. (Although the concepts of charms as animism, "something you have", is valid, too. Something between Battle Magic and Sorcery requiring pieces of hieroglyph calligraphy to activate.

Putting variants of the Gloranthan runes and possibly sorcerous techniques together like Kanji might look cool.

 

Ninja's ki skills:

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I think they actually work pretty well for the Hodaran mystic tradition, and actually wouldn't be too bad for martial arts 'mystic strikes' in general. 

So some sallvaging Land of Ninja would be tolerable?

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I tend to think that the native East Isles sorcery mostly is essentially just Western sorcery with centuries of cultural drift. Martalak the East Isles sorcery 'god' is always referred to as having learnt sorcery in the West, and living in the West ('Heonarmalo').

The West being the lands of the Spike, possibly around it into Viymorni lands where people friendly to the Mostali lived.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

But in those cen)turies, there could easily have been a lot of Kralorelan influence, and some (at least) Kralorelan sorcery is a native development, especially that associated with the Thalurzni alchemy tradition.

Alchemy as sorcery: is this one of the Three Worlds concepts to be ditched, or could there be some use for this in RQG? In HQG/QWG there is no reason not to have it.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I don't think the False Dragon Ring sorcery has much influence in the East Isles (especially as a I suspect they did not get on with the Valkarists). 

Other than the Path of Immanent Mastery (which seems to have served as an ersatz-Inhuman King while Godunya gathered his magic elsewhere) we have no clue about what magics the FDR used. "Imitations of native rites" is a heroquesting technique rather than sorcery.

Valkaro and his converts practice a - possibly cleansed, de-God Leanered - form of western sorcery and society, i.e. something based on Hrestolism. Whether they denounce the Seshnegi (or Fronelan) brand of Hrestolism or not isn't specified.

For all its apparent benevolence, this Valkarist experiment could be a long-term Vadeli project. We just don't know.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

Yes! And the East Islanders at least claim their Martalak sorcerers date from mythical times. 

IMO Martalak and his Sheradpara brothers and Vith's court are more relevant to Vormain than to the rest of the East Isles. Vormain retains a pan-insular imperial superstructure the other (powerful) island confederations lack.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

The East Islanders do not seem to claim their invented it themselves, as Martalak is said to have learnt it in the West, but they do claim their tradition is preferable because Martalak got humbled by Vith, and so knows his limits. The Malkioni probably do claim that the East Islanders obviously learnt sorcery that is of Malkioni origin, but are also a bit suspicious once you start asking from which Malkioni, as the answer could be the Viymorni. 

Or the Mostali at Magnetic Mountain, and what they may have received from Zzabur via the Viymorni. Or possibly the Waertagi in the Neliomi Sea.

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

I think some East Isles sorcery may be learnt from Mostali, but for most East Islanders that makes it suspiciously anti-godly.

Martalak is one of the anti-gods, too, like Babadi (Octamonist Mostali). Eastern use of antigods is more pragmatic than say Praxian use of broos. Several are admirable to the Easterners if they acknowledge Vithelan civilized mores - Herespur, Kahar, Harantara, and others.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Joerg

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

the special magics of Pavis and Flintstone

Because the Big Rubble is a good place for a barney?

[Joerg]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, davecake said:

On 6/7/2023 at 11:29 PM, metcalph said:

I also believe that the Sages (Nenduren etc) use sorcery to transform their souls (rather than pointless external effects as the Westerners do). 

I don't think this is true. The great mystics use mysticism. But hybrid traditions surely exist. 

There is a text about orthodox mysticism which has the aspiring mystic encounter and overcome (the limitations of) the other forms of standard magic before entering the soul-searing outer realms on their way to the Absolute.

As such, I think Peter's statement is true for at least that stage of mystical development, and there is a good chance that aspiring sages get stuck on this stage, or possibly fail to progress beyond that entirely. Such intermediate stage folk could thus provide the charms that could be triggered by less insightful users.

[Joerg]

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Because the Big Rubble is a good place for a barney?

Most of the dinosaur handlers have been summoned to Jrustela these days.

And Bamm-Bamm might be a herdman.

[metcalph]

I think that a large strand of sagely eastern isles sorcery would be more about suppressing runic affinities within oneself and others in order to achieve that state of detachment.  Thus Suppress Fiery Tempers will reduce any fire affinity by 5% per point of spell (say) whereas lengthy meditation under the magical influence is needed to make the reduction enduring.  

 

[davecake]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:58 PM, Shiningbrow said:

On 6/10/2023 at 3:37 PM, davecake said:

That would suggest to me that they'd use a LOT more specific Runes in their sorcery - if following an Earthsea version. And, each Control type spell would only work on one very specific entity (if keeping the Naming as an essential feature). This would certainly make their sorcery unique!

I don’t think their sorcery is that unique. Valkaro was a God Learner, and he broke with the Middle Sea Empire and orthodox Malkionism not because he thought it’s sorcerers were wrong, but because he thought it’s sorcerers shouldn’t have to listen to the nobles. So I expect their sorcery is pretty standard in most ways (and names and language is a big part of sorcery, but that’s implicit already in the rules). I think they still use Western as their main magical languageHasten Vessel and Calm Water, still maintain some caste restrictions (the ones Valkaro agreed with, though probably rather less strictly), still use more or less Western runes. But they are also rooted in God Learner tradition, and have studied local myth and integrated it into their magical practice as appropriate. 

Inspired by Earthsea, I think they are particularly good at wind, sea and weather magic, illusions, summoning, shape changing (note Valkaro is known to have transformed some of his opponents). Note that wind and water magic is incredibly powerful and useful in naval warfare, and in and island setting generally - even just in the limited spells in the main rules, spells like Rogue Wave, Stop Vessel, Hasten Vessel and Calm Water are hugely useful (of course, Waertagi and Vadeli have access to these too). They also have knowledge of alchemy, particularly herbal alchemy (and it’s their main healing magic). And their training often emphasises supplementing magical skills with practical skills - they know some boating, navigation, plant lore, sleight, etc and some may be experts. These are all forms of magic that can have useful applications, and while other forms (say, necromancy, or spells for enhancing melee combat) are surely known, they are less common. The facility with Illusion comes straight from Earthsea, while the rest is mentioned in the Guide or can be implied or makes obvious sense in context - but I kind of like the unexpected facility with Illusion anyway, it’s the sort of detail that makes them a bit more complex and interesting, and also ties into other setting themes (especially Truth vs Illusion is a big Eastern myth theme). 

So the Runes they are mostly likely to master include Air, Water, Illusion, and maybe Man and Plant. Power Runes include Harmony, Illusion, Movement. The favoured Techniques include Command and Summon. Like most Malkioni they disdain Tap (but understand it). 

And while they obviously will have thought about mysticism a lot more than most sorcerous sects, I think that is going to be a fairly complex story, given the various conflicts, and complexities of the various different forms of mysticism. I think they are more likely to have engaged with the Larn Hasamador strain of mysticism, and probably are less keen on the modern form of integrated mysticism of the Three Sages (what I think as modern Mokato Consensus mysticism), which emphasises the Mashunasen and Ven Fornism forms and also Marnalin worship, and which I think largely preaches the essential antigodliness of sorcery, and which was the essential core philosophy of the Mokato Empire and so involved in many conflicts with Valkarism and the other other naval sorcerous powers.

[davecake]

On 6/12/2023 at 4:24 PM, Joerg said:

There is a text about orthodox mysticism which has the aspiring mystic encounter and overcome (the limitations of) the other forms of standard magic before entering the soul-searing outer realms on their way to the Absolute.

Which text? There is no one orthodox mysticism, and the only text I can think of that explicitly talk about confronting the other forms of standard magic in that way isn’t about Eastern Orthodox mysticism but about the EWF. 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

I am still waiting for some of the semi-sorcerous cult descriptions to make sense of how RQG intends to cover spells like Open Seas for non-sorcerers, or how the special magics of Pavis and Flintnail are supposed to work under that regime.

Open Seas is just a ritual Ceremony. It does not require any knowledge of any sorcerous Techniques or Runes, and this is noted as unusual. It says it takes 10 minutes to cast and ‘costs 9 magic points when cast by initiates or priests who lack any sorcerous training.’ Which obviously someone with sorcerous training could cast it for less maybe? But in any case it is a special case - I would not extrapolate from it. 
Flintnail almost certainly uses Mostali Maker magic rules? Most of their historic rune spells are now Rock dwarf spells. 
Pavis, and by extension other EWF sorcery, doesn’t seem to require much extra rules wise? Sorcery that requires fluency in Auld Wyrmish instead of Western, what otherwise needs rules changes (other than trying to fit the unusual way Pavis accesses elementals, which has always been weird even in RQ2, into a sorcerous paradigm - which I simply wouldn’t do, and simply say the Pavis cult can control the elementals it accesses via magical treaty using Command Cult Spirit). Other that, a few different spells? Maybe different Techniques and some unusual Runes?

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Outside of RQG, there might be more room for "misapplied sorcery".

I think the “misapplied” terminology is best abandoned, as almost everyone has, as being linked to the abandoned Three Worlds model. We already have the explicit example of Lhankor Mhy sorcery now being considered just… sorcery. There are hybrid traditions of course, but that’s just traditions combine more than one form of magic, and there lots of them, with big gray areas between the different forms. Irripi Ontor will be another example, and more developed than LM, of a mixed sorcerous/divine tradition. 
But I don’t think there is much need for it here. The Martalak and Valkarist traditions seem clearly primarily straight sorcerous ones. And I very much feel that major mainstream orthodox mysticism traditions should not require sorcery (or divine magic, or spirit interaction) rules to explain them. 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

RQG has the Meditation skill, which would be useful for oriental martial arts (other than the RQ3 "do double damage with natural weapons" interpretation).

The Meditation skill can be useful to involve in lots of things, particularly because it’s useful for conveying a particular feel - if a martial arts form teaches Meditation, that tells you something about its culture. But I don’t think it’s otherwise particularly useful for martial arts, even less than it is for spirit magic etc. And in fiction, Meditation is by no means something one does while practicing martial arts, or that is always required for the acquisition of cool martial arts powers (though it can be something martial artists do, of course). 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Effectively gifts and taboos, or gifts and geases.

Yes. 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Overall, I see Vormain not as a parallel to Japan, but as the highland refuge of Imperial Vithela after Govmeranen got drowned, a continuation of that solar empire. Whether it has a warrior caste with similar concepts of honor as the Tokugawa shogunate or earlier Samurai may remain open to debate.

I quite agree, the less Vormain is just rebadged Japan the better. Though entirely removing the honor code of samurai style warriors, the less most people have a reason to want to play there. The Guide does definitely say there is a hereditary warrior caste, but is uclearwhile also giving the idea of duelling martial codes being (to paraphrase Clausewitz) mystic theological debate by other means. 
 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Without much serious study of Japanese history in detail, I would let the excellent Land of Ninja box (or book, in the Games Workshop edition) linger as an option

They are great rules, that I think are worth reviving in some form, and they seem fit for
purpose. 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

As far as I am concerned, Vormaino "color magic" is just a form of synesthesia when experiencing the magic, The colors lean on adjacent runes, so in the end we have a runic classification of Vormain magic hiding behind a rainbow.

Until/unless we have a more explicit/authoritative statement that’s contradicts it, that’s as good an approach as any. 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

The question remains whether the Vormain archetypes who rule over the colors offer rune magic as per RQG cults or whether they offer some knowledge-based system of charms powered by something different than rune point pools. (Although the concepts of charms as animism, "something you have", is valid, too. Something between Battle Magic and Sorcery requiring pieces of hieroglyph calligraphy to activate.

I think way too soon to usefully speculate on such things. I’d stick with the default assumptions of most of the Joserui are treated as gods, possibly Zaktirra might involve sorcery (as he’s explicitly called a sorcery god) but the term might be used informally, and the complex relationships between various Joserui and the various mystic and martial schools resolved later once we have a clearer idea of both Vormaino religion, and mysticism and martial arts. We do know Vormaino mysticism, while it will have cultural drift from Vithelan mysticism, has substantial overlap and makes use of austerities and often involves martial arts, so not very different to other Eastern mysticism. 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Alchemy as sorcery: is this one of the Three Worlds concepts to be ditched, or could there be some use for this in RQG? In HQG/QWG there is no reason not to have it.

I think there are sound reasons both historical and ontological to have sorcery associated with alchemy, including the existence of Quicksilver Mostali and the ancient Ekozite school of sorcery, so it appears alchemy is largely derived from the Brithini knowledge that comes straight from Zzaburs Blue Book, perhaps in turn derived from Mostali sources. 
That doesn’t mean alchemy is sorcery under the rules, though, rather that they have the same underlying theory. Alchemy as a skill in the rules represents method, not theory, and its likely that much Chalana Arroy alchemical knowledge in particular is derived from quite un-Mostali knowledge of plants and animals (which may or may not be independently developed - the Arroin cult is probably the source, and they are Western in origin). The RQG rules (which admittedly are pretty limited) treat alchemy as both a secret of Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy, and as limited to various healing purposes (for wounds, poisons, disease) and poisons. The Lhankor Mhy knowledge of sorcery is said to derive from Mostal though - but of course the original source of alchemical knowledge doesn’t preclude that LM and CA (who do exchange alchemical knowledge - they don’t treat it as a secret from each other, as closely allied Lightbringers) may not have developed a lot of alchemical lore and recipes over the centuries, and are not just rote learning from old Zzaburi and Mostali sources. 

It also seems likely that more Mostali alchemy that we usually think is concerned with biology and healing though - the Quicksilver dwarves are the ‘medics’ of the dwarves, as well as the food providers (though their knowledge is clearly mineral based as much as they can). The differing ideas of alchemy as the study of transmuting materials, especially metals and minerals, based on deep magical/Runic lore, and alchemy as a practical activity mostly valued for its powerful healing capabilities for biological beings, probably don’t represent two different versions of alchemy, just the difference between pure and applied knowledge. One thing that comes more from the other side of alchemy, and which isn’t given RQG rules (but is mentioned in the skill description) is producing acids, I’d probably just say it not being given rules is mostly to not give players rules for weaponising it, but alchemists can do so with access to the right materials (though the insanely powerful nature of RQ acids implies they might be magical in nature). 

The more exotic alchemical creations of previous editions, especially the spell potions and and magic point restoring potions of RQ2, seem like they might require both alchemy and sorcery (presuming they still exist all, but I presume so - though probably not spirit magic based?), though, so I think there is still a place for alchemist sorcerers to do something special. Other useful spells for alchemical sorcery are easy to imagine. Non-sorcerer alchemy remains useful without it. 
 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Other than the Path of Immanent Mastery (which seems to have served as an ersatz-Inhuman King while Godunya gathered his magic elsewhere) we have no clue about what magics the FDR used

The FDR being God Learners gives us a pretty big clue about many of the magics they used (though not their core innovations, true). They would have used God Learner sorcery, and favoured cults like LM and Issaries, as well as whatever ‘false draconic’ techniques (including the POIM) they developed. 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

Valkaro and his converts practice a - possibly cleansed, de-God Leanered - form of western sorcery and society, i.e. something based on Hrestolism. Whether they denounce the Seshnegi (or Fronelan) brand of Hrestolism or not isn't specified.

My feeling is that Valkaro denounces the political entity that is the Middle Sea Empire, rather than God Learner sorcery in general, though remaining against tne worst excesses of God Learning such as the FDR and Zistorism, and generally against the excesses of greed and power seeking colonialism. Though as to whether he falls on the Makanist or Malkioneranist side of the divide, and other such theological questions, I’m not sure, so the extent of his de-God Learnering is unknown. He certainly seems to be certainly very much Malkioni, and probably quite Hrestoli.

In fact there is really frustratingly little info on Valkaro, a bit less than there is on his modern day followers. 

Anyone got the Valkarist character writeup from How The West Was One available? I suspect there is some info in there not found elsewhere? 

Of course the Valkarists have had centuries to diverge from that point, most of which they spent cut off from all other Malkioni - they could have diverged a lot. 

[davecake]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

IMO Martalak and his Sheradpara brothers and Vith's court are more relevant to Vormain than to the rest of the East Isles. Vormain retains a pan-insular imperial superstructure the other (powerful) island confederations lack.

I think the opposite, but for the same reasons. The Sheradpara are mostly essentially standins for local practitioners outside any central tradition and outside the ‘mysticism first’ Mokato Consensus of the Three Sages. Festanur isn’t a tradition, it’s a collective name for multiple shamanic traditions so the mystics can tell you how to react to shamans. Martalak isn’t really anything unified, just a name for sorcerers that aren’t Valkarists (or other recognised group like Waertagi or Vadeli), if a random sorcerer came and set up shop he’d be referred to as a Martalak magician. Ombararu I’ve made a little different - I’ve made it a professional priest class of pan-Island ritualist, that exists to facilitate worship of the Parloth despite the impracticality of gathering a sufficiently sized group of initiates for worship on the great majority of islands (in our East Isles books), but the classification as Sheradpara is really the Three Sages telling you how you should feel about worshipping the gods in a non-mystic way (worshipping the gods in a sufficiently mystic way - eg Marnalin worship - is of course noble and much preferred, being a core part of the Mokato Consensus. This was one of the reasons it was necessary to form a large empire, so they could let everyone they were worshipping the gods wrong and gently lead them to the correct way). 

In Vormain the concept of Sheradpara is unnecessary. The Joserui are right, however you worship them, regardless of method, according to the Emperor. Even the over the top malevolence of Zaktirra is a useful tool of Empire. If you differ on a particular Joserui, or a particular method of magic, or a fine point of mystic theory or practice, you can encouraged to attempt to prove it in contests of magic or martial arts, but there is explicitly no consensus.