MERP to BRP

[Barak Shathur]

38 minutes ago, Susimetsa said:

I come from a bit of a different angle to this, but I just think it is worth noting that MERP and BRP are not so dissimiliar in the end. BRP is a more pure skill-based system, while MERP handles some facets of the system based on character levels. BRP's strength is the levelless, down-to-earth design which I also think would be a perfect fit of a Middle-Earth setting. Rather than a direct translation of spell lists, I would pick and choose what BRP/Runequest etc. already offer and work them into separate sets for ranger type characters and animist type characters etc. Perhaps also adapt some iconic MERP spells to BRP. It would require a relatively big reimagination of the published campaigns and adventures, though... 😕

 

Yup, and the BRP MERP Project already does this. I’ve been using it more or less for the past two years. However, I want to try to adapt the MERP spell lists instead of having to spend time reimagining an equivalent to the myriad MERP spells. 

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

No, that would be overpowered. Probably start it at 2d6 in that case, plus 1d6 per added level. 

Good. I agree that 2d6 per mp would have been over powered

6 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

’ll probably convert to BRP damage. 1d3 for A, 1d4 for B, 1d6 for C, 2d6 for D, 3d6 for E maybe. The reason for the steep progression at the end is that D and E criticals are usually incapacitating.

Sounds like a plan, but much as D/E crtis are nasty the A and B crits are really just the point where actual injuries start to occur For the most part BRP crticals and specials can do the same thing. You might just bump up the success level of those particular spells. 

6 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Again, simplicity is my goal. I’ll probably go with a flat 10% magic skill per level, affecting spell level known, casting chance of success, and perks like increased spell effects at cutoffs like 200% and 300%. Level 20+ casters are extremely rare in MERP, but they are powerful so I think this could fit the structure. 
 

Thinking more about this ‘magic skill’, I now think it should be one skill that applies to all spell lists known, rather than a separate skill for each list. This is mainly for simplifying NPC conversion. 

 

 

Yeah, MERP used two skills, Base Spell OB and directed Spell OB for most things, and had a couple of outliner for using magic items and reading runes.. It probably used two skills to slow down advancement a little. If one skill did everything then every spellcaster would max that one skill out. With a couple of skills they have to make choices. 

But I thin you will probably want to keep the Spell List% to work out spells known, as previous discussed. 

 

One possibility would be if casters rolled against the lower of their magic skill or their spell list. So if a 12 lvl Mage with Fire Law 120% and Directed Spell 58% were to toss a fireball it would be at 58%. That way when a mage learns a new list he won't be a master of it right away. This wouldn't hurt with NPC stats since you will be given them 10% per level to start, so it will usually be higher than their Base and Directed OBs. 

 

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Mugen said:

They use the same attack table, yes, but that table lists Maximum results for spells other than Fire and Lightning.

As a result, Shock bolts can't do more than 14B on a character with no armor, while Fire bolts can deal 36E with an attack roll of 150+ (even though it deals the same 14B on a roll of 90).

But to get the 36E the mage needs to either roll very well (A critical in BRP) or have a very high Directed Spell OB. SO it probably wouldn't matter much until higher levels. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

6 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Yup, and the BRP MERP Project already does this. I’ve been using it more or less for the past two years. However, I want to try to adapt the MERP spell lists instead of having to spend time reimagining an equivalent to the myriad MERP spells. 

Please, can you tell us more about this BRP MERP Project please?

Or at least tell me! 🙂

[Barak Shathur]

28 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Please, can you tell us more about this BRP MERP Project please?

Or at least tell me! 🙂

It was created by Fergo113 and used to be available in the downloads section here. Apparently it’s been taken down. It is an adaptation to BRP of MERP and Decipher’s LOTR, as I understand it. The magic system and character background stuff are the best parts IMO (except that Elves are ridiculously overpowered, hobbits strangely undexterous, and dwarves too small (as in most BRP games)). The creatures tend to be overpowered in terms of stats but quite good with regard to skills and special abilities. He must have played with really powerful PCs, or else his groups got totalled a lot (as did mine when I didn’t scale down the monsters a bit). 

[Barak Shathur]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like a plan, but much as D/E crtis are nasty the A and B crits are really just the point where actual injuries start to occur For the most part BRP crticals and specials can do the same thing. You might just bump up the success level of those particular spells.

That would seem to differ too much from the BRP magic system. I prefer straight up damage. Thinking about this further, if casters start out with 75% magic skill, and thus are a couple of experience rolls away from potentially being able to cast a 3d6 fireball… that would seem rather overpowered. Maybe the equivalent for an E critical should be 2d6 (if one uses hit locations like I do). Or else it needs to just do general HP damage. The latter could work for fireball but not really for the top tier bolt spells. Hmmm…

[Barak Shathur]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Good. I agree that 2d6 per mp would have been over powered

Sounds like a plan, but much as D/E crtis are nasty the A and B crits are really just the point where actual injuries start to occur For the most part BRP crticals and specials can do the same thing. You might just bump up the success level of those particular spells. 

 

Yeah, MERP used two skills, Base Spell OB and directed Spell OB for most things, and had a couple of outliner for using magic items and reading runes.. It probably used two skills to slow down advancement a little. If one skill did everything then every spellcaster would max that one skill out. With a couple of skills they have to make choices. 

But I thin you will probably want to keep the Spell List% to work out spells known, as previous discussed. 

 

One possibility would be if casters rolled against the lower of their magic skill or their spell list. So if a 12 lvl Mage with Fire Law 120% and Directed Spell 58% were to toss a fireball it would be at 58%. That way when a mage learns a new list he won't be a master of it right away. This wouldn't hurt with NPC stats since you will be given them 10% per level to start, so it will usually be higher than their Base and Directed OBs. 

 

I don't want a skill that isn't really a skill, as Spell list skill would be if it's only used to figure out what level spells you can cast. I think it's going to have be one skill for both casting and max spell level calculation. But learning a new spell list would have to be something rather involved, like studying for a month with a master or something.

[Atgxtg]

44 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

That would seem to differ too much from the BRP magic system. I prefer straight up damage.

No problem. THe trick here is figuring out where you want to bend BRP to emulate MERP and when not.

44 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

 

Thinking about this further, if casters start out with 75% magic skill, and thus are a couple of experience rolls away from potentially being able to cast a 3d6 fireball… that would seem rather overpowered. Maybe the equivalent for an E critical should be 2d6 (if one uses hit locations like I do). Or else it needs to just do general HP damage. The latter could work for fireball but not really for the top tier bolt spells. Hmmm…

I still favor the idea of using the specials and crticals for any extra benefits. Not only would that make magic skills over 100% mean something, but it would fit in with how BRP handles other skills.

[Atgxtg]

17 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

I don't want a skill that isn't really a skill, as Spell list skill would be if it's only used to figure out what level spells you can cast. I think it's going to have be one skill for both casting and max spell level calculation. But learning a new spell list would have to be something rather involved, like studying for a month with a master or something.

Well unless you use the lower of the spell list and the magic casting skill. This is similar to what what RQ3 did with sorcery. There were a bunch of magical skills and when someone would cast a spell they would have to roll against the lowest magical skill that applied. 

For example if someone had Create Fire at 80%, Duration 70%, Multispell 65% and Range 50% and they wanted to create a half dozen fires spread out of a 100 meter circle,  that would burn for an hour they would roll against the 50% Range skill (the lowest of the involved skills). 

You could have Spell Lists and a Basic Magical Casting skill and use the lowest. Since Level x10% will usually be higher than MERPC caster's Base Spell OB or Directed Spell OB, you usually be rolling against the magical sting skill for converted NPCs, which keeps things simple.

 

I kinda think you need the spell list % to monitor spells known, as least if you want to keep it MERPish. Regular BRP would just let the caster have access to the spells but give more potent spells a higher magic point cost. 

[Barak Shathur]

13 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Well unless you use the lower of the spell list and the magic casting skill. This is similar to what what RQ3 did with sorcery. There were a bunch of magical skills and when someone would cast a spell they would have to roll against the lowest magical skill that applied. 

For example if someone had Create Fire at 80%, Duration 70%, Multispell 65% and Range 50% and they wanted to create a half dozen fires spread out of a 100 meter circle,  that would burn for an hour they would roll against the 50% Range skill (the lowest of the involved skills). 

You could have Spell Lists and a Basic Magical Casting skill and use the lowest. Since Level x10% will usually be higher than MERPC caster's Base Spell OB or Directed Spell OB, you usually be rolling against the magical sting skill for converted NPCs, which keeps things simple.

 

I kinda think you need the spell list % to monitor spells known, as least if you want to keep it MERPish. Regular BRP would just let the caster have access to the spells but give more potent spells a higher magic point cost. 

If I was to go with your idea, I might use POW x 5 for Channeling and INT x 5 for Essence as the casting skill. That way a level 1 NPC hedge wizard would actually be able to cast that level 1 Boil Water spell… I’m warming up to this actually (no pun intended).

(to clarify, I wouldn’t have them use the lowest of the two in this case)

Edited June 30, 2023 by Barak Shathur

[Barak Shathur]

25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No problem. THe trick here is figuring out where you want to bend BRP to emulate MERP and when not.

I still favor the idea of using the specials and crticals for any extra benefits. Not only would that make magic skills over 100% mean something, but it would fit in with how BRP handles other skills.

Oh I would definitely give extra benefits for specials and criticals. I would probably follow BRP here with lower MP costs as an effect.  

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

Oh I would definitely give extra benefits for specials and criticals. I would probably follow BRP here with lower MP costs as an effect.  

I think that is the way to go here. Not only does it solve the spell list as a skill thing but it also somewhat handles the difference in power point totals vs. magic point totals. If the BRP mage with 250% skill is only paying half the costs (or less) half the time then it's like having 50% more magic points. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

If I was to go with your idea, I might use POW x 5 for Channeling and INT x 5 for Essence as the casting skill.

That is how RQ3 handled Spirirt Magic. POWx5%. Or you could go RQ2 ish and not require a roll to cast a spell that you know, and only require rolls to hit the target and/or overcome resistance.  

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

That way a level 1 NPC hedge wizard would actually be able to cast that level 1 Boil Water spell… I’m warming up to this actually (no pun intended).

Ironically this is a problem in MERP too. A low level caster might start off with half a dozen lists but succesfully casting anything is another story.

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

(to clarify, I wouldn’t have them use the lowest of the two in this case)

Okay.

[Sam E.]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

Personal tastes are personal tastes.
It can be really hard to put them into words.

 

Indeed, which is why it's always strange to me when someone asks me to do just that.  😄

[SDLeary]

10 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

It was created by Fergo113 and used to be available in the downloads section here. Apparently it’s been taken down. It is an adaptation to BRP of MERP and Decipher’s LOTR, as I understand it. The magic system and character background stuff are the best parts IMO (except that Elves are ridiculously overpowered, hobbits strangely undexterous, and dwarves too small (as in most BRP games)). The creatures tend to be overpowered in terms of stats but quite good with regard to skills and special abilities. He must have played with really powerful PCs, or else his groups got totalled a lot (as did mine when I didn’t scale down the monsters a bit). 

Much of it is still in the downloads section. Magic is still there for example, though images have been removed. About 20 files in all.

SDLeary

@Lloyd Dupont

[Lloyd Dupont]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Much of it is still in the downloads section. Magic is still there for example, though images have been removed. About 20 files in all.

SDLeary

@Lloyd Dupont

Could you post a link please?
Went to download and search for both MERP and LOTR and didnt find  it! 😞

But good to know, thanks! 🙂

Edited July 1, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Susimetsa]

4 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Could you post a link please?

On 6/28/2023 at 6:56 PM, SDLeary said:

Take a look HERE, in the downloads section of this site. You might want to expand your search a bit further, it appears that only about half the files were there. At one point they were taken down, IIRC because of imagery.

SDLeary

I believe that is the link to the remaining files. I have not been able to track down any online source for the missing ones.

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Could you post a link please?
Went to download and search for both MERP and LOTR and didnt find  it! 😞

But good to know, thanks! 🙂

Here you go! Listed as Middle Earth.

SDLeary

Edited July 1, 2023 by SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Here you go! Listed as Middle Earth.

SDLeary

Nice!