MERP to BRP

[Barak Shathur]

So I have this campaign where I’m converting old MERP modules to my RQ3/BRP hack. I’m trying to come up with a good way to adapt the MERP magic system for BRP, with a minimum of headaches for me as GM when converting NPCs. I have this idea and am looking for comments:

Magic using characters learn spell lists as skills. You can cast spells at levels up to half INT for Essence users and half POW for Channeling. Each spell level costs 1 PP (Essence users use INT for PP instead of POW). Question: does this make magic using PCs too powerful from the start? I’m thinking of adding a penalty of 5% for every spell level above 1 to mitigate this (also to make a meaningful difference between magic users of higher and lower MERP levels).

I want to keep as close to MERP as Thoughts?

[Lloyd Dupont]

No idea about MERP, what is that?

Magic is, in my personal opinion, not shared by many people so, there is that, completely out of whack in BRP! 😮

Mostly damage spell though, everything else is acceptable I reckon.

I like what they did with Classic Fantasy (Mythras Edition), though Mythras damage dealing is not quite the same overall.

That said I am planning to come up with my own magic system.. and I plan to have crazy damage spell just like in BRP (1D6 per level) and even a tad cheaper! But.. they will take a few round to cast! Will see how it works out...

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[SDLeary]

42 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

No idea about MERP, what is that?

Middle-Earth Role-Playing, and ICE game from the 80's and 90's, based on a simplified version of their RoleMaster system. Somewhat popular with collectors as many of the covers for supplements were painted by Angus McBride. The spiritual successor to this game would be Against the Dark Master by Open Ended Games.

SDLeary

Edited June 28, 2023 by SDLeary
Added link

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

So I have this campaign where I’m converting old MERP modules to my RQ3/BRP hack. I’m trying to come up with a good way to adapt the MERP magic system for BRP, with a minimum of headaches for me as GM when converting NPCs. I have this idea and am looking for comments:

Magic using characters learn spell lists as skills. You can cast spells at levels up to half INT for Essence users and half POW for Channeling. Each spell level costs 1 PP (Essence users use INT for PP instead of POW). Question: does this make magic using PCs too powerful from the start? I’m thinking of adding a penalty of 5% for every spell level above 1 to mitigate this (also to make a meaningful difference between magic users of higher and lower MERP levels).

I want to keep as close to MERP as Thoughts?

Take a look HERE, in the downloads section of this site. You might want to expand your search a bit further, it appears that only about half the files were there. At one point they were taken down, IIRC because of imagery.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

So I have this campaign where I’m converting old MERP modules to my RQ3/BRP hack. I’m trying to come up with a good way to adapt the MERP magic system for BRP, with a minimum of headaches for me as GM when converting NPCs. I have this idea and am looking for comments:

Magic using characters learn spell lists as skills. You can cast spells at levels up to half INT for Essence users and half POW for Channeling. Each spell level costs 1 PP (Essence users use INT for PP instead of POW). Question: does this make magic using PCs too powerful from the start?

I think so, but I also think it makes them too weak later on, and favors channeling based casters over essence based ones. In MERP characters gain levels and spellcasters not only get more power points for spells but get access to higher level spells off of the list. But in BRP INT doesn't increase, so Essence users will always have access to the same level  of spells, and never get the higher level spells.. Channeling users are better off since POW can be increased.  

2 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

 

I’m thinking of adding a penalty of 5% for every spell level above 1 to mitigate this (also to make a meaningful difference between magic users of higher and lower MERP levels).

I want to keep as close to MERP as Thoughts?

I think what might be closer to MERP and work out better if you gave caster access to spells on a list of up 1/10th their skill in that list. For example a character with Protections (Open Channeling)  at 30% could cast the first three spells off of the Protections list (Prayer, Bless and Resistance)  but would need to reach 40% with the list to learn the fourth level spell (Resist Elements). Character with less than 10% in a list wouldn't know that list, similar to how character can have a % to know  list in MERP carry over.

That would be simple as you are already treating spell lists as skills, make improving the lists more important, work the same for both eseence and channeling, grant a smother progression similar to MERP, make converting NPCs easier as spell list skills would equal character level x10%, and grant higher lvel character access to their full spell lists.  

 

[Barak Shathur]

42 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Take a look HERE, in the downloads section of this site. You might want to expand your search a bit further, it appears that only about half the files were there. At one point they were taken down, IIRC because of imagery.

SDLeary

Yeah, I’ve been using this mod for a couple of years but since the magic lists only vaguely correspond to MERP’s spell lists, and also are arranged alphabetically instead of by list, it turned out to to be a real pain to convert. 

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I think so, but I also think it makes them too weak later on, and favors channeling based casters over essence based ones. In MERP characters gain levels and spellcasters not only get more power points for spells but get access to higher level spells off of the list. But in BRP INT doesn't increase, so Essence users will always have access to the same level  of spells, and never get the higher level spells.. Channeling users are better off since POW can be increased.  

I think what might be closer to MERP and work out better if you gave caster access to spells on a list of up 1/10th their skill in that list. For example a character with Protections (Open Channeling)  at 30% could cast the first three spells off of the Protections list (Prayer, Bless and Resistance)  but would need to reach 40% with the list to learn the fourth level spell (Resist Elements). Character with less than 10% in a list wouldn't know that list, similar to how character can have a % to know  list in MERP carry over.

That would be simple as you are already treating spell lists as skills, make improving the lists more important, work the same for both eseence and channeling, grant a smother progression similar to MERP, make converting NPCs easier as spell list skills would equal character level x10%, and grant higher lvel character access to their full spell lists.  

 

These are some excellent suggestions. I think I’ll run with this. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Barak Shathur
Grammar

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

But in BRP INT doesn't increase, so Essence users will always have access to the same level  of spells, and never get the higher level spells.. Channeling users are better off since POW can be increased.  

Good point. I was thinking in terms of conversion, since Essence using characters in MERP typically have high IG but not necessarily high IT (which would be the equivalent to POW). This creates a problem. Either I’m going to have to let Essence users increase INT instead of POW, or give Essence users higher POW than what their IT would be equivalent to. Or switch INT and POW stats for them. None of which feels particularly satisfactory. Thinking out loud here. 

[Barak Shathur]

3 minutes ago, Mugen said:

That's also how I would do to use MERP spell lists in BRP.

You'll need some rules to adapt attack spells, though.

Problem is that NPCs are usually statted for RoleMaster, and often have level above 10. Also, their Power Point total is based on their level and either Intelligence or Intuition.

PCs are very likely to start as équivalent to level 5 to 8 NPCs, and remain so.

If you use POW as the maximum total for PP, you'll end up with low level spellcasters able to cast far more spells, but high level ones not able to cast their best one.

Perhaps a Power Development skill would be useful, which would be used to determine PP maximum, along with POW.

 

I think under the above system, I would give NPC’s 10% skill in their spell list skills per character level, so a 25th level character would have 250%, giving higher chance of critical and special successes, and able to absorb considerable negative modifiers without difficulty. Maybe every 10% over 100 could give 1 extra magic point too, allowing them to cast the more powerful spells. 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

That's also how I would do to use MERP spell lists in BRP.

EEk! 😉

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

You'll need some rules to adapt attack spells, though.

TO adapt all the spells to some extent. 

Most of the attack spells do damage on a table, based on the die roll and their OB, much like weapons, so I'd look at the MERP spell tables, compare them to the MERP weapon tables and try to find an equivalent die for the spell tables.  Let's see:

Max Damage (no Armor)

 1H Slashing 30E

1H Concussion 23E

2H Weapons 48E

Missile Weapons 27E

Bolt 36E

Ball 34E

So spells come in somewhere in between 1H Slashing Weapons and 2H Weapons, closer to 1H Slashing

Now 1H  Battle Axe does 1D8+2 in BRP and the Greatgword does 2D8. If we tripple thier max damages we get 30 and 48 which matched nicely with the MERP values (year I was a little selective, but it gives us round numbers and should be in the right ballpark). 

 

So how about Bolt 2D6 and Ball 1D10+1?

Oh, and for Spell OB how about +1 damage per 20% in OB? 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

Problem is that NPCs are usually statted for RoleMaster,

True, although that was kinda a problem for MERP as well. Often they had two sets of stats listed one for MERP and the other for RM. SO just use the MERP guidelines.

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

and often have level above 10. Also, their Power Point total is based on their level and either Intelligence or Intuition.

Yeah, and levels are much higher in typical RPGs as well. The Hobbits in the Fellowship must have earned a lot of XP! But the nice thing about MERP?RM is that direct level isn't as important as the skill and PP scores. I'd say convert most things over from the die modfiers. So someone with Broadsword +77 would have a 77% skill in BRP. Yeah, a lot of those nCS are going to be very good, but it's a high level sort of game. Plus if you do liek they did in the Elric RPG with a weapon skill at 100% to start, it should worlk out fine. 

 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

PCs are very likely to start as équivalent to level 5 to 8 NPCs, and remain so.

Depends on how long you play. You could get some really powerful characters in RM or MERP it just took time. The game did encourage more balanced characters though. THe +5/+2?+1/+.5% improvement tiers  made branching out more appealing. 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

If you use POW as the maximum total for PP, you'll end up with low level spellcasters able to cast far more spells, but high level ones not able to cast their best one.

Perhaps a Power Development skill would be useful, which would be used to determine PP maximum, along with POW.

 

IN MERP/RM PPs get fewer PP (typical 1 or 2 with the really powerful PCs getting 3 or 4)  than the BRP POW score, but PP get multiplied by level and there are all sorts of items that are PP multipliers or give a number of free castings of a specific spell.  Since PP Is tied to level and we tie spell list to level how about: POW+1 per 10% in the highest spell list. THis give a PC a max of around 30 PP, which would be the equivalent of a 15th level MERP PC, or a 7-10th level PC with a 100-102 Stat. IF you want more then +1 per 5% might be better, or maybe +1 per 20% in each spell list?

 

Just tossing out some quick & dirty options.

 

BTW, it might not be a bad idea to just run MERP!

Edited June 28, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

I don't think @Atgxtg had rolls under spell lists in mind.

No and I'm not sure if it makes much of a different. I mean what do you get for a crtical a spell list roll? If you get something (like a discount on the PP cost) then yeah it could be an issue. Otherwise not.

I expected character to be rolling under base Spll OB and such .

 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

Skills in MERP are subject to diminishing returns : while you can get 10% every level when your skill rank is low, you won't be able to gain more than 1 or 2% once you reach rank 20 (which happens at level 10 for your best skills).

A level 25 fighter is closer to a +125 bonus than+250.

Yes, and for anything other than Spell Lists I say go with the MERP skill value as the skill percentage. So someone with  Ride +60 MM would have a 60% skill in BRP. 

 

Again the OP was looking for a easy way on converting the magic.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

I think under the above system, I would give NPC’s 10% skill in their spell list skills per character level, so a 25th level character would have 250%, giving higher chance of critical and special successes, and able to absorb considerable negative modifiers without difficulty. Maybe every 10% over 100 could give 1 extra magic point too, allowing them to cast the more powerful spells. 

Or specials and critcals only cost one half or just one PP. That would help offset the increasing PP scores for higher level characters. Someone with Fire Law at 250% would get a special half the time and only pay half the normal PP costs, and so be able to cast twice as many spells. 

[Barak Shathur]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Again the OP was looking for a easy way on converting the magic.

Correct. I know how to convert the skills. 
 

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

I don't think @Atgxtg had rolls under spell lists in mind.

No and I'm not sure if it makes much of a different. I mean what do you get for a crtical a spell list roll? If you get something (like a discount on the PP cost) then yeah it could be an issue. Otherwise not.

I expected character to be rolling under base Spll OB and such .

 

I don’t know what @Atgxtg had in mind, but my idea is based on a skill for each spell list, which applies for all spells on that list. What would specials and criticals confer? Yeah, maybe reduced magic point cost, maybe maximum damage for offensive spells, maybe increased range/duration/spell effect for others. 
 

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Most of the attack spells do damage on a table, based on the die roll and their OB, much like weapons, so I'd look at the MERP spell tables, compare them to the MERP weapon tables and try to find an equivalent die for the spell tables.  Let's see:

Here I would probably follow BRP/RQ, where offensive spells tend to do 1d6 per spell level. Might have to figure out a way to implement BRP spell levels vis-à-vis MERP spell levels to enable more powerful offensive spells.
 

 
 

[Barak Shathur]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

Skills in MERP are subject to diminishing returns : while you can get 10% every level when your skill rank is low, you won't be able to gain more than 1 or 2% once you reach rank 20 (which happens at level 10 for your best skills).

BRP skills also suffer diminishing returns after 95%, so that functions as a reasonable equivalent for me. 
 

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, it might not be a bad idea to just run MERP!

No. Just no. I spent way too much time flipping through MERP/RM tables back in the day, and besides I feel that a skill-based system like BRP is a much better fit for Tolkien’s Middle Earth than a level based one. 
 

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Someone with Fire Law at 250% would get a special half the time and only pay half the normal PP costs, and so be able to cast twice as many spells. 

Also, maybe offensive spells over 100% could be split into several spells per round, like physical attacks. 

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

I don’t know what @Atgxtg had in mind

That's where I keep my dice.

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

No. Just no. I spent way too much time flipping through MERP/RM tables back in the day, and besides I feel that a skill-based system like BRP is a much better fit for Tolkien’s Middle Earth than a level based one.

LOL! Back when I ran MERP I photo copied the dozen or so required tables and stabled them to some manila folders to make a GM screen (that was back before scanners, inkjet printers, and customizable GM screens). It really helped to keep the game flowing. 

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Also, maybe offensive spells over 100% could be split into several spells per round, like physical attacks. 

Maybe. But I'm not keen on the idea. It probably should still take time to cast spells and the game effects of someone throwing two or three fire balls or other area effect spell should be pondered before going down that route. Fire Ball is Lvl 8 so by your method 8d6 damage, twice for two spells. Ouch. No one's walking away from that in BRP, unless they are a Maiar, or a dragon. Two Death Clouds? I mean it's a big game changer. You vcan do it, bu it will shift the balance of power over to the spellcasters.

Personally I'd go with either reduced POW costs or maybe a free level upgrade. I'd probably say a spell should take 1 SR/DEX Rank per POW point, too. 

[Barak Shathur]

16 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Yes, but my point was that about the imbalance that would cause a +10% per level to Spellcasters skills.

Yet you used a fighter as your example. 
 

Anyway, spells in MERP barely function like skills at all, so the comparison is halting at best. 

[Barak Shathur]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Maybe. But I'm not keen on the idea. It probably should still take time to cast spells and the game effects of someone throwing two or three fire balls or other area effect spell should be pondered before going down that route. Fire Ball is Lvl 8 so by your method 8d6 damage, twice for two spells. Ouch. No one's walking away from that in BRP, unless they are a Maiar, or a dragon. Two Death Clouds? I mean it's a big game changer. You vcan do it, bu it will shift the balance of power over to the spellcasters.

Under my system, since I'm basing it on BRP the basic fireball would do 1d6 damage, not 8. So a wizard with 170% in Fire Law (equivalent to a 17th level MRP/RM wizard) would be quite puny unless he gets some more bang for his magic points.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Personally I'd go with either reduced POW costs or maybe a free level upgrade. I'd probably say a spell should take 1 SR/DEX Rank per POW point, too.

I agree with 1 SR per magic point, that's how I've been running it. And yes, one possible solution would be that at 100%, the spell effect is doubled, so that your fireball does 2d6 damage, at 200% 3d6 etc. That might fit better with the overall system, though splitting magic attacks would scale better with regard to skill level.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

LOL! Back when I ran MERP I photo copied the dozen or so required tables and stabled them to some manila folders to make a GM screen (that was back before scanners, inkjet printers, and customizable GM screens). It really helped to keep the game flowing. 

I even had the official GM screen! Didn't help. In recent years I've heard some GMs actually handed out the different tables to players, so that everyone handled something during combat. Pure genius if you ask me. Of course, back in the day when the GM was the all powerful Demiurge, giving players access to the secret tome of knowledge would have been anathema, like breaking the fourth wall or something.

[Susimetsa]

I loved MERP back in the day and I still have it and several of its supplements on my bookshelf. Still, I'd base my Middle-Earth game more on the BRP system and merely reimagine certain spells from the MERP spell lists in the BRP system as needed. It would also give a good opportunity to remove some of the more outlandish spells from the selection (MERP was/is a fun system, but, IMHO, somewhat too magic-heavy for the Middle-Earth setting).

[Susimetsa]

3 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

In recent years I've heard some GMs actually handed out the different tables to players, so that everyone handled something during combat. Pure genius if you ask me. Of course, back in the day when the GM was the all powerful Demiurge, giving players access to the secret tome of knowledge would have been anathema, like breaking the fourth wall or something.

This is what we did with MERP and Rolemaster in the days of yore. Players had copies of their own attack and critical tables. Still, I don't think MERP had an overabundande of such tables - it was Rolemaster that was the main culprit in that regard.

[Barak Shathur]

47 minutes ago, Susimetsa said:

 Still, I don't think MERP had an overabundande of such tables - it was Rolemaster that was the main culprit in that regard.

Indeed, by an order of magnitude.

[Barak Shathur]

51 minutes ago, Susimetsa said:

I loved MERP back in the day and I still have it and several of its supplements on my bookshelf. Still, I'd base my Middle-Earth game more on the BRP system and merely reimagine certain spells from the MERP spell lists in the BRP system as needed. It would also give a good opportunity to remove some of the more outlandish spells from the selection (MERP was/is a fun system, but, IMHO, somewhat too magic-heavy for the Middle-Earth setting).

The MERP days where some of the best. Still, I imagine myself today reading off those tables leading to other tables, and I just can't even anymore. 

As I've said above, I've been using the BRP MERP Project for my campaign so far, and the Spell Specialties do a good job of implementing MERP-y magic for BRP, yet differ enough from MERP spell lists that it creates a lot of work for me when I want to convert an NPC. This kind of work I need to cut out, even though MERP/RM magic isn't very well tailored to Middle-Earth in my mind. 

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Yes, because I needed another character type for comparison. 🙂

Basically, what I meant was "you shouldn't give a 25th level Magician a 250% skill because a 25th level Fighter will only have a 125% skill."

Well that makes more sense! Still, in MERP/RM a 25th level Mage or Animist is probably much more powerful than a 25th level Fighter, so I’m not sure it would be so off. Also, it’s a matter of the convenience of the conversion for me. 

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Under my system, since I'm basing it on BRP the basic fireball would do 1d6 damage, not 8. So a wizard with 170% in Fire Law (equivalent to a 17th level MRP/RM wizard) would be quite puny unless he gets some more bang for his magic points.

I thought you were going to follow MERP more cloesly. That is Since Fire Ball is an 8th level spell it cost 8 magic points and did 1d6 damage per magic point. If you make the spell variable then it obviously not so powerful, but that also sort of downplays the higher level spells, as any damage spell can be pumped in in BRP.

7 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

I agree with 1 SR per magic point, that's how I've been running it. And yes, one possible solution would be that at 100%, the spell effect is doubled, so that your fireball does 2d6 damage, at 200% 3d6 etc. That might fit better with the overall system, though splitting magic attacks would scale better with regard to skill level.

Now would that be 2d6 per magic point? 

 

You might consider reducing the magic point cost and  the casting time. So a animist who has Healing Ways at 100% can cast a healing spell at 1 magic point less and 1 SR/DEX rank faster. THis would allow experienced caster to toss off minor magicss more quickly and often. Makes sense for a master spellcaster.

 

BTW, What are you going to do about the MERP criticals? Some of the spells simply cause a "Type C" crtical or some such. Are those going to be converted to damage, a roll on the BRP critical table (say -A: 30%, B:-20%, C:-10%, D: +0%, F: +10%, E: +20%), or what? 

7 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

I even had the official GM screen! Didn't help. In recent years I've heard some GMs actually handed out the different tables to players, so that everyone handled something during combat. Pure genius if you ask me. Of course, back in the day when the GM was the all powerful Demiurge, giving players access to the secret tome of knowledge would have been anathema, like breaking the fourth wall or something.

I have the official screen. I never used it becuase my 8 panel screen was better, and had all of the tables that we used frequenly.. Even the other GM who ran MERP said so. I put all the combat tables together and the other stuff on the other side of the screen. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

Well that makes more sense! Still, in MERP/RM a 25th level Mage or Animist is probably much more powerful than a 25th level Fighter, so I’m not sure it would be so off. Also, it’s a matter of the convenience of the conversion for me. 

You could assume a slowdown of skills past 75% or 100%, Something like 10% up to Level 10 and then 5% or even 2%. That way a Lvl 25 wizard would have 10x10%+15x2% for 130%, much closer to the 125% warrior. IMO it really depends on just what perks come with a higher spell list skill. Originally I was thinking it was just going to be what spells you know and maybe the cast chance. But if there are other perks it could be an issue.

BTW, what you could do is apadt a bit from RQ sorcery and Myhtras criticals. What if there were a list of special effects that a caster could choose from on a special success roll. Things like reduced magic point cost, increased spell level, increased range, increased duration,reduced casting time (Say DEX SR or 5 DEX ranks), multispell, mulittarget, etc. A crtical would let the cast pick two special effects. That would be simple yet give the telecasters a bit more flexibility.

 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Well that makes more sense! Still, in MERP/RM a 25th level Mage or Animist is probably much more powerful than a 25th level Fighter, so I’m not sure it would be so off. Also, it’s a matter of the convenience of the conversion for me. 

Also worth noting (for purposes of genre-emulation) is that most of the Greats of LOTR had nontrivial magic.