Glorantha with South American aesthetics

[Hellhound Havoc]

So I don't have a RQ game to prepare, but this has been in my head for a while and I need to write it down somewhere.

Basically, the more I think about it, the more the idea of a Dragon Pass with South American aesthetics sound possible. I'll go by topics.

Yelm and Pelorians - These can be interpreted as similar to Tawatinsuyu, the Inca Empire. The Sapa Inca was seen as a god on earth, according to some traditions, and the Incas were the superpower in the region for the longest time. Plus they had a really robust administration with stuff "written" through quipu, and Cusco was no Glamour but it was still a pretty big city.

Also their main deity (to put it simply, because Inca religion was really complex, see also the huacas) was Inti, a sun deity, just like Yelm before the moon goddess.

Sartar and the Orlanthi - The many peoples of the Amazon (mainly the Carib and the Tupi, but also the Yanomami) seem very close to the Orlanthi for me. One of the main deities of one of the people there, the Tupi, is Tupã, who is either the god of thunder or the god of the sky whose voice can be heard through thunder (or was it thunder the voice of the great creator and Tupã just a description of that phenomenom? I'm no godlearner!). Like the Sartarite, they are also a fierce people who live in longhouses (except Tupi houses aren't usually made out of wood but rather wooden structures covered in a kind of grass) with a custom of periodical raiding and a whole honor system based around ransoming peoples.

The peoples of the Amazon and of what is today southern Brasil are known to have raided and fought with the Inca and one another very much. The first European to have come into contact with the Inca, as a matter of fact, was a Portuguese coloniser called Aleixo Garcia who found himself in a raiding expedition with a Guaraní army (who assembled in Paraguay), and the walked all the way up to Bolivia to be defeated by the Inca.

Anyway, many of these peoples also practice ceremonial tattooing, and they also had cities. The city of Kuhikugu, for instance, thought to have been populated by the Carib-speaking Kuikuro, may have had a population of upwards to 50 thousand people before the devastation of colonisation! That's twice the urban population of Sartar given in the Guide to Glorantha, but no one really talks about Kuhikugu because everyone thinks the indigenous peoples of the Amazon didn't have cities at all. Which isn't just untrue, it's also a dangerous idea that paints them as "backwards" and unrefined. Plus, there's little about their cities because they were all devastated by disease long before the Europeans got to them, unlike the Inca and the Aztecs, which were conquered faster.

Thematically, the great sun-aligned empire fighting the thunder-worshipping "barbarian" underdogs just feels so Gloranthan. And besides, a lot of these Amazonian peoples have some sort of spiritual practice that closely resembles Greg's interests of shamanism, trances (a lot of it involving substances like sniffing tobacco or ayahuasca), and cool mysticism with out of the way aesthetics.

Climate - Little fun fact: the soil of the Amazon rainforest is kinda poor in phosphorus, but it gets it through dust blown from the desert of the Sahara. Tons and tons of dust are blown over the ocean every year to keep the soil on the other side of the Atlantic healthy.

In Glorantha, every year the Storm Bull blows the desert winds of Prax - which can be a sandy waste depending on your interpretation, but it can have dust without it- west to Dragon Pass.

One can easily say that Glorantha's map is actually tilted on its side: in actuality, Genertela isn't on north with Valind, but rather on the west, and Dragon Pass is on the middle distance between Valind and the big fire south of Pamaltela, creating a sort of mild Equator filled with rainforests - much like South America east of the Andes!

What I like more about this idea, though, is the thematic notion that the death of Genert hasn't ruined Prax forever. The Wastes seem hostile for life, yes, but life always finds a way, and even the dry hot lands have an important part in the ecosystem. It fortifies the Storm Bull's place as the "evil on our side" y'know? He is good but he isn't nice. He fights the Devil, yes, but he may also get you in the crossfire; he kicks up dust storms and they blow west and that's important for the florest, but don't get caught in one of them!

In real life, these desert and dry ecosystems are some of the least preserved out there, because people just see a big heap of shrub and arid death, but they don't see the rich bird life or tenacious plant and burrowing life just underneath the surface.

 

I feel like I had more to say but I can't remember anything right now, I just think that we don't really get stuff inspired by proper South American civilisations, especially non-Inca ones, and especially stuff that isn't tragic. They have a lot more to offer than the Great Dying.

I also have some other thoughts kicking around like the Grazelanders resembling the Charrua in my mind and things like that, but nothing too solid to write about. What do y'all think?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Yelm and Pelorians - These can be interpreted as similar to Tawatinsuyu, the Inca Empire.

2 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Sartar and the Orlanthi - The many peoples of the Amazon

This does of course stand their topographical correlation on the head, with the lowland empire paralleled by the high Andes range territory, and the hill barbarians placed in the riverine bowl.

The (yet mostly unknown) Amazon basin agricultural culture(s) whose remains have been located using LIDAR fairly recently might be a parallel for a near future Glorantha where the Aldryami reforestation succeeded.

The urban Moche culture was coastal rather than riverine, but their (non-square) mudbrick pyramids might reflect some aspects of Dara Happa quite well, too.

The general problem with using New World high cultures (and their millennia of agricultural cultivation of food plants, a cultural achievement easily overlooked by archaeologists concentrating on physical artifacts) is the absence of animal muscle in their power generation. The use of oxen to pull heavy loads, mules and horses to carry stuff, or even just pastoralism to keep sources of protein from otherwise inedible plant growth around rather than relying on annual migration cycles does make a difference in infrastructure.

[AlexS]

I like these ideas a lot, @Hellhound Havoc, but then I’m a Brazilianist so I guess I would say that!

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This does of course stand their topographical correlation on the head, with the lowland empire paralleled by the high Andes range territory, and the hill barbarians placed in the riverine bowl.

Yes, it does – but if you read Pierre Clastres on the lowland peoples of South America (Societies Against the State) and James C. Scott on the hill peoples of Southeast Asia (The Art of Not Being Governed) you realise that the Orlanthi spirit of ‘no one can make you do anything’ is common to both, and placed in conscious opposition to those hierarchy-bound agricultural empires, whether they are ‘up there in the mountains’ or ‘down there in the valley’.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The (yet mostly unknown) Amazon basin agricultural culture(s) whose remains have been located using LIDAR fairly recently

The remains of very large-scale urban settlements in the Amazon have been being identified for decades, since long before the latest LIDAR evidence became available. Francisco de Orellana described very dense riverine populations along big stretches of the Solimões-Amazon waterway in the 1540s. In addition to highly productive agriculture (associated with soil improvement whose legacy includes the belts of ‘Amazonian black earth’ found throughout the region) they apparently farmed giant river turtles as their principal source of animal protein – maybe a model for a city of Sofali hsunchen turned turtle farmers somewhere in Kralorela or Pamaltela?

[AlexS]

5 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

The peoples of the Amazon and of what is today southern Brasil are known to have raided and fought with the Inca and one another very much.

They also served the Inca as mercenaries. I used to work with the Ashaninka people in Acre (there are a few villages on the Brazilian side of the border, though most Ashaninka live in Peru) and they have many myths about the God Inka and the technology (mostly bronze) with which he supplied their ancestors in exchange for military service. Ashaninka warriors probably provided the backbone of the units of Antis, the ‘cannibal bodyguards’ of Manco Inca who were so feared by the Spanish.

Plenty of resemblance to the Orlanthi and other ‘barbarian’ warriors fighting in the Lunar Provincial Army (as brilliantly depicted by Martin Helsdon in Armies and Enemies)…

Edited October 25, 2023 by AlexS

[Hellhound Havoc]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

This does of course stand their topographical correlation on the head, with the lowland empire paralleled by the high Andes range territory, and the hill barbarians placed in the riverine bowl.

The (yet mostly unknown) Amazon basin agricultural culture(s) whose remains have been located using LIDAR fairly recently might be a parallel for a near future Glorantha where the Aldryami reforestation succeeded.

The urban Moche culture was coastal rather than riverine, but their (non-square) mudbrick pyramids might reflect some aspects of Dara Happa quite well, too.

Yes, though personally I was thinking more of the Tupi rather than the peoples of the Amazon, and the Tupi did live in some very hilly areas throughout their history. Besides, I think it can be a melting pot of inspirations, just like the Lunars can either be Persian or Roman or something else entirely depending on how you interpret them.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The general problem with using New World high cultures (and their millennia of agricultural cultivation of food plants, a cultural achievement easily overlooked by archaeologists concentrating on physical artifacts) is the absence of animal muscle in their power generation. The use of oxen to pull heavy loads, mules and horses to carry stuff, or even just pastoralism to keep sources of protein from otherwise inedible plant growth around rather than relying on annual migration cycles does make a difference in infrastructure.

Oh for sure, but it's one of those things that can easily be handwaved I think. In th context of broader RPGs and why they don't use those cultures, I understand the cultural differences are quite big, and some folks are also scared of "doing it wrong" like they are with Jewish-inspired religions and cultures. But in the case of Glorantha, I would personally just say "they're like the Inka but, like, if the Inka had horses and planted rice you feel me".

5 hours ago, AlexS said:

The remains of very large-scale urban settlements in the Amazon have been being identified for decades, since long before the latest LIDAR evidence became available. Francisco de Orellana described very dense riverine populations along big stretches of the Solimões-Amazon waterway in the 1540s. In addition to highly productive agriculture (associated with soil improvement whose legacy includes the belts of ‘Amazonian black earth’ found throughout the region) they apparently farmed giant river turtles as their principal source of animal protein – maybe a model for a city of Sofali hsunchen turned turtle farmers somewhere in Kralorela or Pamaltela?

Honestly, instead of moving it to Pamaltela, I would probably just make Dragon Pass denser jungle and move the settlements a bit closer to the river and put even BIGGER giant turtles there!!! Maybe add some turtle themes to the Orlanthi too, I wouldn't even make them Hsunchen; have some funny Ducks paddling around in canoes with bows to hunt turtles, put some quero-queros in Prax, make the trolls hairier to look like the Mapinguari hahahahaha just fully go wild

No but seriously, this reminded me of reading an AskHistorians answer or something like that about Francisco de Orellana travelling down the river, meeting some indigenous peoples around the area you mentioned, and it was something about him being impressed with how many people there were there - I think the text mentioned something around 40 to 60 thousand people? - and these people themselves saying something about some queen up north being even grander and more powerful. I can totally imagine Orellana being some sort of early Lunar emissary going down river like "Jeez these people mean business, the empire won't be happy to hear it".

One could possibly even turn the Dragon Pass map into a river based pointcrawl, where the main means of locomotion are riverboats and canoes, so you and your buddies paddle around all day meeting people, watching dinos lapping water from the sides, trying not to get lost in the Upland Marsh, etc. Maybe extend the Stream through the mountains to Boldhome too to connect everything.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Honestly, instead of moving it to Pamaltela, I would probably just make Dragon Pass denser jungle and move the settlements a bit closer to the river and put even BIGGER giant turtles there!!! Maybe add some turtle themes to the Orlanthi too, I wouldn't even make them Hsunchen; have some funny Ducks paddling around in canoes with bows to hunt turtles, put some quero-queros in Prax, make the trolls hairier to look like the Mapinguari hahahahaha just fully go wild

Somebody spoke and I went into a dream . . . these can be Gloranthan miniatures too

[Nick Brooke]

Capybara People or GTFO.

[Hellhound Havoc]

12 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Capybara People or GTFO.

the lostest tribe of Prax. they got so lost that they left Prax lol

[Tindalos]

14 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Capybara People or GTFO.

Those are just fuzzy Uz!

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Capybara People or GTFO.

Secret allies of the Morocanth.
Capybara people are obviously spelt Morokanth.

Your Glorontha May Vary.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, AlexS said:

... they apparently farmed giant river turtles as their principal source of animal protein ...

3 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

... Maybe add some turtle themes to the Orlanthi too, I wouldn't even make them Hsunchen; have some funny Ducks paddling around in canoes with bows to hunt turtles ...

Please note the adjacent Grazelanders & the Hiia Swordsman subcult of Humakt, with turtle-shell armor.
You don't have to shove every bit of it onto the Orlanthi to get it into Dragon Pass!  😁

[Tindalos]

Also isn't there a giant turtle in

Spoiler

Snakepipe Hollow?

(Spoilered just in case)

[Hellhound Havoc]

25 minutes ago, g33k said:

Please note the adjacent Grazelanders & the Hiia Swordsman subcult of Humakt, with turtle-shell armor.
You don't have to shove every bit of it onto the Orlanthi to get it into Dragon Pass!  😁

Very true, it's just that the Grazelanders are so horse centric that it's hard to fit them in a South American flavour. I think only the Mapuche, maybe?

[mfbrandi]

So how did the Morokanth lose this “Wonderhome” — their (newly retconned) ancestral Eden — and end up living with those mad bastards in Prax? Did they go on a quest to start the oh-so-necessary dust storms and never make it back? Because of the shame of ritual flesh-eating?

l

Do the Incafied Lunars march into Dragon Pass under the banner Solanum tuberosum redux?

15 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

What do y’all think?

I think this is the sort of thing — your conception, not answers to my stupid questions — that I would like to see on the JC: properly variant Glorantha; no messing about. 😉

[Hellhound Havoc]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So how did the Morokanth lose this “Wonderhome” — their (newly retconned) ancestral Eden — and end up living with those mad bastards in Prax? Did they go on a quest to start the oh-so-necessary dust storms and never make it back? Because of the shame of ritual flesh-eating?

l

Do the Incafied Lunars march into Dragon Pass under the banner Solanum tuberosum redux?

Great questions, you see: the Morocanth would love to lounge around in the fresh water and humidity of the rainforest - they don't need it but hey, who doesn't love a great soaking? However, it's tougher to herd their precious herdmen through the dense jungle. Also, the Sartarites and other tribes harass them too much for it to be worth their while, so instead their migrations take them to the River of Cradles during flood season so the herdmen can tamp on the soft earth and eat those delicious riverine plants they love so much. These grow not due to Genert's influence or lack thereof, but rather because of the god of the river and his magnificent bounty.

There are, of course, Morocanth who do periodic pilgrimages back to Dragon Pass as a way o homage their freshwater ancestors and sink a bit on the rivers, but they've grown hard and distant and most of them can't swim, so they're a bit afraid of the water.

Also I've literally just found out that tapirs also inhabit dryland forests, and there is mention of chaparral and shrubland in Prax, so it isn't a leap to say that their ancestral home as tapirs actually is the Wastes and that they never had a proper freshwater thingie. How did they arrive there if that area wasn't dry in the Godtime before Genert's death? That's a question that puzzles the Morokanth loremasters for centuries now, but their memory from before the Covenant is tricky. Some Morocanth are actually in the process of finding a HeroQuest that would remind them of their origins. Some say they should let sleeping tapirs lie, though. Who knows what one may find in such a distant past. What kind of sin was committed by or to them to confine them to such place?

In my opinion, there is no sin at all. Prax is hard but life grows everywhere, and they're children of the Wastes through and through. They should, instead, invest in creating mud pits like the Sudd in Sudan so they and their herds can take mud baths and soak in the cool sucking mud.

And of course the Incafied Lunars wouldn't march under such a silly banner, this is borderline disrespectful to them and to this whole concept. Such a suggestion...

...They would, of course, say it in Quechua instead! 😛

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

There are, of course, Morocanth who do periodic pilgrimages back to Dragon Pass

Where, perhaps, they meet up with their mountain-dwelling cousins (Tapirus pinchaque; perhaps here we can leverage the ‘c’ and ‘k’ spellings: “they all look the same” to the two-legs) who — rumour has it — heroquested to retcon out of the timeline their sworn enemies, the puma people (the mean three-legs).

Spoiler

Opinions vary as to whether the quest succeeded, but given that the pumas were this unbearable:

• We are the smartest, most clever and most beautiful creatures in creation.
  We are perfect, free and powerful.
  We can be whatever we wish to be, and what we are is what we are supposed to be.
  No one else can claim that.
  — HQ Voices: A Personal View of Life as a Puma, p. 28

… one can be forgiven for taking the side of the reality-editing herbivores.

[mfbrandi]

17 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

They would, of course, say it in Quechua instead!

»If« Google Translate is to be trusted, “we bring back the potato” might come out something like “papata kutichimunchik.” It has a certain ring to it … probably. 😉