Off Topic - Really! Christianity and RPGs

[rust]

The problem is that almost whatever one says about Christians is true for some

and wrong for others. Christians have been narrowminded and open, they have

developed the idea of human rights and violated human rights, they have protec-

ted the environment and destroyed it, they have ... you name it, and Christians

did it and did the opposite, too.

Therefore this is a subject which requires the ability and willingness to look at the

details and to distinguish between persons, groups, movements, time and region.

In my experience it is best discussed in a relaxed atmosphere, in the late evening

after a good meal and preferably over a nice glass of wine, and those involved do

well to be in the mood to show their sense of humour.

[Vortigern]

I agree with rust that this thread has been unproductive. The title wasn't "A few misinformed people from 30 years ago and RPGs." It was "Christianity and RPGs." If the statements made about Christians had been made about any other group, forum members would have been outraged and the moderator would have shut the thread down. Unfortunately, the thread has demonstrated that rational, polite discussion has little effect on bigotry -- in this case, not bigotry by Christians but bigotry by their detractors.

I quite agree.

[icebrand]

I agree with rust that this thread has been unproductive. The title wasn't "A few misinformed people from 30 years ago and RPGs." It was "Christianity and RPGs." If the statements made about Christians had been made about any other group, forum members would have been outraged and the moderator would have shut the thread down. Unfortunately, the thread has demonstrated that rational, polite discussion has little effect on bigotry -- in this case, not bigotry by Christians but bigotry by their detractors.

Well, OF COURSE we are talking about a some christians and not all christians. It applies to any group, really; following your reasoning you can't talk about anything ever (humanities-related) because there is no such thing as an homogeneous group. Also, i saw no bigotry on the thread, unless you consider not agreeing with something (like christians don't agree with gay people) as bigotry.

Also, in my personal experience rational and polite discussion usually sways the opinion of non-believers much easily than it does for believers (since they follow a dogma, and that leaves no room for reasoning, thus they gain +30% to their resistance roll).

[rust]

... like christians don't agree with gay people ...

Hmmm ... Stockholm has an openly lesbian female bishop, openly gay priests are

no rarity at least in most countries in western Europe ... the idea that Christians

don't agree with gay people sounds rather outdated to me.

Edited July 2, 2011 by rust

[icebrand]

Hmmm ... Stockholm has an openly lesbian female bishop, openly gay priests are

no rarity at least in most countries in western Europe ... the idea that Christians

don't agree with gay people sounds rather outdated to me.

But thats europe, everyone knows preety much every other dude is gay over there

Also, christians have bishops?!? I thought that was a catholic thing!

AAAANYWAY, Biblosium's BGB says its bad, under spot rules:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

[rust]

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

This was written more than 2,000 years ago as the law of a minor seminomadic

tribal culture in the Middle East, many centuries before the person we know as

Christ was born. For most Christians this is about as important as the fact that

those who wrote this considered a bat to be a bird and claimed to have conque-

red the town of Jericho at a time when the place was not inhabited.

[Atheorem]

Also, in my personal experience rational and polite discussion usually sways the opinion of non-believers much easily than it does for believers (since they follow a dogma, and that leaves no room for reasoning, thus they gain +30% to their resistance roll).

it's more like +50%. And like +50% to Fast Talk and Dodge rolls.

[Vortigern]

But thats europe, everyone knows preety much every other dude is gay over there

Also, christians have bishops?!? I thought that was a catholic thing!

AAAANYWAY, Biblosium's BGB says its bad, under spot rules:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

I get it... you disagree with Christianity about the scriputural/doctrinal stance concerning homosexuality. And you are correct. Homosexuality is, scriputurally, an abomination before God. Yet you consider that grounds for complete contempt? The fact that they have a moral/ethical disagreement with you about that one facet of human behavior? It seems you are instead displaying your own narrow-minded intolerance to other people's ideas.

[Vortigern]

Hmmm ... Stockholm has an openly lesbian female bishop, openly gay priests are

no rarity at least in most countries in western Europe ... the idea that Christians

don't agree with gay people sounds rather outdated to me.

Are they really Christian if they openly violate the tenets of what is supposedly their faith? You can't live your life in complete opposition to scripture and still claim to be a devout priest of that faith. Have the courage to be something else, if you genuinely don't agree with it.

[rust]

Are they really Christian if they openly violate the tenets of what is supposedly their faith? You can't live your life in complete opposition to scripture and still claim to be a devout priest of that faith. Have the courage to be something else, if you genuinely don't agree with it.

You just declared about all European members of Lutheran churches to be non-

Christians, because almost all of these Churches have agreed that homosexua-

lity is not in contradiction to the spirit of the Bible. Perhaps you should tell them

that you know more about theology than they do ?

But this just underlines my point that one needs to distinguish, and that there is

no such thing as "Christian", there are only many very diverse churches which

cannot even agree what the basics of their supposedly common believes really

are.

Edited July 2, 2011 by rust

[Atheorem]

But this just underlines my point that one needs to distinguish, and that there is

no such thing as "Christian", there are only many very diverse churches which

cannot even agree what the basics of their supposedly common believes really

are.

So much for the Lord's word and guidance.

[rust]

Well, these words are first recorded (and the various records often contradict

each other), then translated (often several times through a series of languages),

then selected as canonical or not canonical (the Bibles of the different churches

often contain different texts), and finally interpreted (in each case with at least

as many different interpretations as the texts have words).

All this is done by humans, not by angels, so it really should not come as a sur-

prise that it is difficult to agree which of the words at the end of that chain are

identical to any words at the beginning of the chain, and what the original mea-

ning might have been.

[soltakss]

Personally, I am finding this thread to be more and more unpleasant.

Sure, some fanatical Christians have attacked RPGs. Such people have also attacked TV, films, computer games and other religions.

Most Christians don't care one way or another.

Dragging up things that happened centuries ago or claiming that all Christians behave in one way or another is unproductive and distasteful.

I would like it if Triff closed down this thread as it will achieve nothing but could well offend other people. I am a moderate Christian and a gamer and is has already offended me.

[Vortigern]

You just declared about all European members of Lutheran churches to be non-

Christians, because almost all of these Churches have agreed that homosexua-

lity is not in contradiction to the spirit of the Bible. Perhaps you should tell them

that you know more about theology than they do ?

But this just underlines my point that one needs to distinguish, and that there is

no such thing as "Christian", there are only many very diverse churches which

cannot even agree what the basics of their supposedly common believes really

are.

It seems like plain sophistry to say that you believe something does not violate the 'spirit' of a text, when it plainly violates an explicit prohibition. When scripture directly states that something is an abomination before God, it cannot then be declared otherwise without boldy and baldly seeking to revise the religion and faith. And my point is that if you disagree with something to that extent... you shouldn't be seeking to undermine and change it, you should be going your own way and seeking a philosophy or faith that is a better match for you. The problems of 'inconsistency' for Christianity these days stem from the large number of people who purport to be Christians but in fact believe in things that are totally different from the scriptures and doctrines of the faith, and thus misrepresent the religion to outsiders.

[Vortigern]

So much for the Lord's word and guidance.

Not that you would have any detectable bias yourself, of course?

[Vortigern]

Well, these words are first recorded (and the various records often contradict

each other), then translated (often several times through a series of languages),

then selected as canonical or not canonical (the Bibles of the different churches

often contain different texts), and finally interpreted (in each case with at least

as many different interpretations as the texts have words).

All this is done by humans, not by angels, so it really should not come as a sur-

prise that it is difficult to agree which of the words at the end of that chain are

identical to any words at the beginning of the chain, and what the original mea-

ning might have been.

Some Christian scholars go to great lengths to try and find the oldest possible or indeed original versions of texts, in their original languages, and study them in that manner in an attempt to seek deeper understanding over just such issues.

Yet essentially it comes down a question of faith. Either you believe that the work is 'inspired' by the Divine, or you don't. Finding that belief contemptable is something else entirely.

[rust]

The problems of 'inconsistency' for Christianity these days stem from the large number of people who purport to be Christians but in fact believe in things that are totally different from the scriptures and doctrines of the faith, and thus misrepresent the religion to outsiders.

This is a problem the Christians have to solve, but they will hardly ever agree,

as they failed to do it for the last 2,000 years. I am glad that I am not a Chris-

tian and do not have to take part in that argument.

[Atheorem]

Not that you would have any detectable bias yourself, of course?

Sure, I don't have any reason to believe that an all-powerful being would have spread the truth of things so shoddily.

[icebrand]

This was written more than 2,000 years ago as the law of a minor seminomadic tribal culture in the Middle East, many centuries before the person we know as Christ was born. For most Christians this is about as important as the fact that those who wrote this considered a bat to be a bird and claimed to have conque- red the town of Jericho at a time when the place was not inhabited.

Wait, you saying the bible was not written by god?

I get it... you disagree with Christianity about the scriputural/doctrinal stance concerning homosexuality. And you are correct. Homosexuality is, scriputurally, an abomination before God. Yet you consider that grounds for complete contempt? The fact that they have a moral/ethical disagreement with you about that one facet of human behavior? It seems you are instead displaying your own narrow-minded intolerance to other people's ideas.

There are a few more issues than that... Actually i think im suppossed to stone to death people wearing clothes made with more than one fabric, or somesuch... Also the catholic church is usually sided with the most reactionary right wing people, including dictators (again, church as organization, not priests as people). Christians are a lot better in that regard.

You just declared about all European members of Lutheran churches to be non-Christians, because almost all of these Churches have agreed that homosexuality is not in contradiction to the spirit of the Bible. Perhaps you should tell them that you know more about theology than they do ?

And here i hit a language barrier. At least in my country, the only people claiming their *religion* as christians are evangelicans; but there's a linguistic difference between beeing a christian person -all sects are- and beeing a cristian...

This is really hard to explain... Lets see, i'm a catholic. I would not ever say "im a christian" when someone asks for my religion, and a protestant would not either. The only ones who call themselves christians are evangelicans, who would rarely if ever call themselves evangelicans. Also, we are all "cristians" as in christian people, but not as in christian religion.

Still, my explanation is very poor, i'm unable to convey such technical matters in english, sory. Thing is, this "ESP ministries" is what? It doesn't sound very mainstream to me!!!

But this just underlines my point that one needs to distinguish, and that there is no such thing as "Christian", there are only many very diverse churches which cannot even agree what the basics of their supposedly common believes really are.

Actually, the main three lines are orthodox, catholics and protestants, and they preety much share the same basis, albeit they differ in their philosophical interpretations. I don't actually know that much about orthodox, but i sympathize more with the protestant worldview overall.

Personally, I am finding this thread to be more and more unpleasant.

Sure, some fanatical Christians have attacked RPGs. Such people have also attacked TV, films, computer games and other religions.

Most Christians don't care one way or another.

Dragging up things that happened centuries ago or claiming that all Christians behave in one way or another is unproductive and distasteful.

I would like it if Triff closed down this thread as it will achieve nothing but could well offend other people. I am a moderate Christian and a gamer and is has already offended me.

I find this thread quite stimulating, fun, and educative. I think we are adults and we should be able to identify puns and jokes, and separate them from "real" opinions (though we need to be careful about how we transmit them).

People should not get offended any more than when we criticize or comment about any other matter; we need to stop being "christians" or "black" or "jew" or "nerds" or "whatever" and start being people -with opinions.

I am a catholic -not very moderate as you can see, but in the "bad" way- i really could not care less about what the church, a church, some sect of the worshipers of thor think; but i DO care about what you and my fellow forum members think, so i sincerely apologize if i offended you (and if so, please tell me how and when, by PM if you wish, so i won't do it again). I assure you if this happened it was not my intention.

Having said so, ill start paying attention to god whenever he feels like granting me some rune magic.

[rust]

Wait, you saying the bible was not written by god?

I am not a Christian and my religion does not care whether deities exist or not,

so from my point of view it was written by people who probably did believe that

it was the word of their god.

And here i hit a language barrier.

Where I live there is a rather strong ecumenical tendency, so most Christians in-

deed call themselves Christians, and only after being asked for more information

either Catholic Christians or Lutheran Christians or Orthodox Christians, and so

on.

[Conrad]

I agree with rust that this thread has been unproductive. The title wasn't "A few misinformed people from 30 years ago and RPGs." It was "Christianity and RPGs." If the statements made about Christians had been made about any other group, forum members would have been outraged and the moderator would have shut the thread down. Unfortunately, the thread has demonstrated that rational, polite discussion has little effect on bigotry -- in this case, not bigotry by Christians but bigotry by their detractors.

Dial down the melodrama a bit seneschal. Whenever someone forces you to confront the ambiguities in Christian belief you take it as a personal attack. This is a sure sign of faith becoming dogmatic armour. You are the bigot if you cannot admit that your holy book has glaring inconsistencies. Not ALL Christians are as extreme as the anti D&D crowd (and they still exist after all these years) or the antievolutionists, or the batty Biblical literalist minority. I've known many types of Christian from the frankly mad to the spiritually uplifting so I don't hate them all; in fact I've loved some of them. So get off your high horse and deal with things in a less drama queenish fashion.

You might want the whole thread stopped by moderators but that really is about your uncomfortable feelings, not reality. Christian censorship? Nein danke!

Edited July 2, 2011 by Conrad

[Conrad]

Personally, I am finding this thread to be more and more unpleasant.

Then don't read it Soltakss. Its as simple as that.

claiming that all Christians behave in one way or another is unproductive and distasteful...

You might try reading the thread before commenting. Some of us are going to great lengths to show that our comments aren't meant to include ALL Christians.

I would like it if Triff closed down this thread as it will achieve nothing but could well offend other people. I am a moderate Christian and a gamer and is has already offended me.

Christian censorship rears its ugly head yet again. Those people whose frail faith makes them sensitive whine like babies when a frank and mature discussion of the actual failings of their religious dogma is had. Just like the minority of insecure Christians would like to ban D&D or other roleplaying games, you'd like to censor our free discussion because it hurts your iddle widdle weak faith. Ahhhh diddums. Grow up!

Edited July 2, 2011 by Conrad

[icebrand]

Then don't read it Soltakss. Its as simple as that.

You might try reading the thread before commenting. Some of us are going to great lengths to show that our comments aren't meant to include ALL Christians.

Christian censorship rears its ugly head yet again. Those people whose frail faith makes them sensitive whine like babies when a frank and mature discussion of the actual failings of their religious dogma is had. Just like the minority of insecure Christians would like to ban D&D or other roleplaying games, you'd like to censor our free discussion because it hurts your iddle widdle weak faith. Ahhhh diddums. Grow up!

Conrad, i would appreciate if just dial it down a bit; soltakks is a personality i respect (due to multiple and long standing contributions to one of my favorite hobbies) and i don't see the point in arguing with that much... emphasis, when he clearly states it bothers him (i, myself wouldn't mind your message at all, like a good brawl, i enjoy no-holds barred threads!)

[Atheorem]

I would like it if Triff closed down this thread as it will achieve nothing but could well offend other people. I am a moderate Christian and a gamer and is has already offended me.

I'm not responding to this because you are a Christian, and I would be saying this if you were a non-believer too. But please tell me how you being personally offended is a good argument to close this entire thread? Can't you just stop reading it or not take the discussion personally? I've never understood how the claim of being offended by religious or political discussion should entitle a person to having any sway in shutting it down for everyone else. I realize this forum is for the discussion of BRP, but the title at hand was going to branch off into religious debate (they nearly always do). I'm not thinking this thread will change beliefs but obviously it is of people's interest to engage in debates and exchanges of information in threads like these.

edit: I just realized Conrad has responded to you in about the same way. I don't mean to be redundant.

[soltakss]

Then don't read it Soltakss. Its as simple as that.

You might try reading the thread before commenting. Some of us are going to great lengths to show that our comments aren't meant to include ALL Christians.

Ah, I thought the thread was pointing out that some fanatics were saying that roleplaying games could lead people into the occult etc. I didn't think that it was an open invitation to attack Christianity. Perhaps I misread that.

In my opinion, those who say that RPGs lead to the occult or are against Christian teachings are just plain wrong. But that's my opinion.

I've been RPGing for nearly 30 years and haven't been led into the occult. Having said that, I have included many of the demons of medieval Christian demonology in a forthcoming BRP supplement, so maybe I am leading people to the occult.

Christian censorship rears its ugly head yet again. Those people whose frail faith makes them sensitive whine like babies when a frank and mature discussion of the actual failings of their religious dogma is had. Just like the minority of insecure Christians would like to ban D&D or other roleplaying games, you'd like to censor our free discussion because it hurts your iddle widdle weak faith. Ahhhh diddums. Grow up!

No, this thread does not damage or threaten my faith or my very liberal beliefs.

However, I don't think that it is a productive thread.

But, if you want to discuss Christian theology then knock yourself out.