Esrola: Sister or Daughter?

[Bohemond]

When Esrola was first mentioned, she was described as one of Ernalda's daughters. But then the Heroquest rules elevated her to a third sister of Ernalda and Maran Gor, and developed a whole theology around them being triplets. Now the Earth Goddesses has made her a daughter again and seems to have reduced her importance. What's behind those changes? 

[soltakss]

I treat her as a daughter of Asrelia, so the sister of Ernalda.

It doesn't make a lot of sense as being the daughter of Ernalda, really.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

When Esrola was first mentioned, she was described as one of Ernalda's daughters. But then the Heroquest rules elevated her to a third sister of Ernalda and Maran Gor, and developed a whole theology around them being triplets. Now the Earth Goddesses has made her a daughter again and seems to have reduced her importance. What's behind those changes? 

Actually, if you look at the genealogy chart in Earth Goddesses, you'll find Esrola is a daughter of Gata (and sister of Asrelia), not of Ernalda.

There are multiple ways of looking at the Earth goddesses which you have to keep in mind. All the Earth goddesses can be seen as "daughters" of Gata. Look at the passage on p.22: Gata is "the primal variously called the Three, Six, Nine, or One Hundred Twenty-Four Earths."

The Three are: Maiden, Mother, Crone. This is now seen as: Voria, Ernalda, Asrelia (or their dark counterparts). But there's a progression there. Once it was: Ernalda, Asrelia, Gata. And you are likely to find tales of Ernalda as the Crone as well. They are One and they are Three.

There's also another division of the Earth as Six Sisters (you can find this in the Esrolia book and the Prosopaedia). These are: Ernalda, Maran, Esrola, Orana, Delaeo, and Delaina. It's another, equally viable division of the Earth. 

And there's the various Grain/Land Goddesses, which are something like physical divisions of Gata. And at some point, Ernalda becomes one of those land goddesses as well ruling over Ernaldela (northwest of the Spike). And in that sense, Ernalda becomes one of the daughters of Gata (and sisters of Esrola) as well. 

These are parts of the secrets of the Earth goddesses: they are One, they are Three, they are Six, they are Many.

What is important with Ernalda is that she is the one who has become/gained the status of Earth Queen. Therefore, she is now the head of the Earth Pantheon and rules all the Grain Goddesses (generally). And in that sense, Esrola is also Ernalda's daughter - land and grain goddess for a small part of the Holy Country, or grain goddess for her special grain. 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

When Esrola was first mentioned, she was described as one of Ernalda’s daughters.

Hmmm … I had a longer answer, but I found myself remounting old hobby-horses, so I will try to boil it down to a short(er) — but equally jaded — note.

• Ernalda is the bountiful mother of the world. In some places she is called Ralia, Frona, Seshna, or Pelia, but her attributes are the same … Sometimes she has particular attributes which go along with local personalities. In the Dragon Pass and other Ernalda regions, she is called Barley Mother, and in Esrolia there is the yellow-haired Wheat Mother. In Peloria there is the Maize Mother too, whose cult was spread by Hon-eel — WF9 (1980), pp. 6–7

At this stage, it seems clear that Ernalda was just another land/grain goddess, so a daughter of Gata & Genert (but also of Asrelia because Asrelia is her older self). Maran Gor is the sister of Ernalda and Esrola (etc.) in the sense of being their dark side. There is just one goddess in play, here.

Similarly Asrelia–TKT are the light/dark grandmother–crone phase of that same goddess (Esrola–Ernalda) and — presumably — Voria–Babs are the light/dark daughter-and-younger-self pair (making Ernalda her own bloody avenger, though she wouldn’t admit it). As far as I can see, only the light mother version gets the extreme geographical multiplication — although identity is transitive — and that may be one reason for separating them from the earth mother goddess (as aspects of an aspect?), but it seems a bit thin to me. There is still only one goddess in play.

1 goddess × 3 age phases × 2 shades + n geographical areas = 1 earth, without considering Gata and company, but you know così fan tutte — men in the ’70s, eh?

I guess what we all suspect is that the designers drank the Dragon Pass Orlanthi Kool-Aid and wanted to promote Mrs. Orlanth out of the rabble of land/grain goddesses (who are all one really). Or at least, they want us to think they like wearing that hat. But Kool-Aid leads to Jonestown and being drummed out of the Spare Rib collective, so reject the Devil Ernalda and all her works and embrace a more wholesome Mother … like Mallia or Krarsht. Krarsht with a “husband–protector” is unthinkable, I am very happy to say. Arachne might have a “husband”–lunch, I suppose.

[Oh, dear — this is not a very helpful answer, is it? And not much shorter than the old one. It has fewer quotes, at least.]

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And there's the various Grain/Land Goddesses, which are something like physical divisions of Gata. And at some point, Ernalda becomes one of those land goddesses as well ruling over Ernaldela (northwest of the Spike). And in that sense, Ernalda becomes one of the daughters of Gata (and sisters of Esrola) as well.

I think the primary intersection of Ernalda and Esrola as the six sisters is actually here. Rather than Ernalda, Esrola is the goddess and sister that represents the physical land of Ernaldela, she is immanent as the earth itself. Ernalda is of course still present in the land, but as the unifying power within all earth, what she seems to have inherited from Gata.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Divine genealogies are essentially maps made by mortals attempting to chart out how divine powers relate to each other. They're descriptions of what relations look like to mortal perception, rather than necessary encompassing the relations-in-themselves. They are effectively analogies. 

It's a bit like referring to a company as a "daughter company" of another company within a larger concern structure, even if that company might actually be older than the parent company, it just happened to be bought up recently. Or when a less powerful king would send an envoy to a more powerful king, addressing the more powerful king as "father" and himself as "son", utilizing the analogy of family relations to succinctly capture their diplomatic positions. Or it's like looking into light and finding out that it behaves both like a wave and as particles, depending on how you approach it.

The simple answer to the above is: they're all true, but not in all contexts. Sometimes it makes sense to approach the relation between Ernalda and Esrolia as sisters, other times as mother and daughter, other times as something else. 

"Family" is essentially an analogy that scholars of Glorantha (and the real world!) found useful because it is both familiar and intuitive, and it is quite flexible. But it probably is not flexible enough to capture the mind-boggling complexity of divine interrelations - which ultimately is sort of the point, I bet. 

I'd argue the same is also true for divine gender in Glorantha, or the social class of gods, or the number of arms they have, or their skin color, or their temper and humour, etc. etc. These are mortal attempts at filling in descriptions for phenomena which are just so, so, SO much more than humans could ever hope to accurately grasp.

[Ynneadwraith]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Divine genealogies are essentially maps made by mortals attempting to chart out how divine powers relate to each other. They're descriptions of what relations look like to mortal perception, rather than necessary encompassing the relations-in-themselves. They are effectively analogies. 

Agreed (with all of it tbh).

Throw into the mix that some/most/all of it could be heavily skewed towards syncretism and 'interpretatio Glorantha' by the God Learners (and anyone else involved in syncretism) and it gets even messier (which is a good thing). How many of these relationships are manufactured? How many of these entities are manufactured?

That doesn't make them any less real, but opens up opportunities for different cultures arranging the relationships in different ways, which can only make the experience of Glorantha richer (again, a good thing).