SHOGUN tonight!

[svensson]

So the reboot of the 80's classic TV mini-series SHOGUN is on tonight.

Hiroyuki Sanada filling in for the late and much lamented Toshiro Mifune as Toranaga-sama. That's like Jeff Bridges filling in for John Wayne in True Grit... Those are might big boots you're trying to fill, Sparky, so don't eff it up!

I'm old enough that I don't get excited about TV much anymore, but I'm seriously looking forward to this. Back in the day, this mini-series BROKE television as we knew it. It ran for a straight week and for that week there was essentially nothing else on TV. IIRC it even beat out Monday Night Football in the ratings and in 1980 that was huge.

One of the great things about gaming as a hobby is that it makes us all amateur anthropologists and archeologists. When presented with a fantasy society, you can't help but get interested in the historical ones. It's one of the reasons why I'm a historian. I'm looking really forward to seeing a more Japan-centric or historically accurate portrayal of Clavell's story. And, to be honest, I've drug out my copies of RQ3 Land of Ninja and Mongoose's Samurai of Legend.... 😁

Edited February 28 by svensson

[svensson]

I would be remiss if I didn't give a comparison /review of Episode 1, so here we go. I will do my best to do this spoiler-free for those of you who haven't seen it yet.

 

I was excited seeing the trailers and was prepared to be impressed. Given how cranky a war-horse [or horse's ass] I can be at times that say something right there. Episode 1, 'Anjin', did not disappoint.

 Many exteriors were filmed in British Columbia. Now I'm from Washington State and I've got a lot of love for my Canada gooses over the border. BC today reminds me a great deal of the small towns in Western Washington where I grew up. Let me tell you flat-out, there is some **stunning** terrain in BC and Shogun took full advantage of it. The outdoor shots were filmed in the Port Moody area and the set designers did a wonderful job setting up a Sengoku-era Japanese village using the natural backdrop as much as possible. This is not to say that there is no CGI or matte backdrops, of course, but I think most viewers who've never been to BC will be impressed.

One thing that sets this series apart is the wonderfully 'lived-in' look of the people, props, and sets. Contrary to the original's raked white sand and almost postcard perfection of everything involved, this rendition is far more true to life. It rains. When it rains, it gets muddy. When it gets muddy, clothing gets dirty. Everything, from the waraji sandals to the formal court attire, has the look of something that is clothing not costuming. I really appreciate the sense of realism this brings to the whole production. I don't mean to imply that everything looks shabby or shop-worn. Only that everyday clothing looks just like everyday clothing. You can easily imagine everyone wearing, using, and living in the clothing, props and sets ca. 1600 AD.

As for the cast themselves, they do not disappoint. Sanada [Toranaga] has enough experience playing samurai that the role offered no difficulties for him. But there are substantial edits from the original script /novel and Sanada handles these glimpses into Toranaga's inner character with just the right touch of expression and inflection. He carries the role of a feudal overlord who must exhibit iron control with a deftness that surprised me.

I'm not familiar with Cosmo Jarvis' previous work, but he handled the character of John Blackthorne extraordinarily well. Instead of Richard Chamberlain's stiffness and obvious 'Look everybody! I'm acting!' demeanor, Jarvis' Blackthorne really does act like a desperate man playing a very poor hand of cards as skillfully as he can.

Anna Sawai is wonderful as Lady Mariko, and I look forward to seeing her character develop.

Let me also mention Nestor Carbonell, known to Batman fans, as Vasco Rodrigues... The scriptwriters gave him some truly wonderful lines and he delivered on them with the wry deadpan of a man stuck between two worlds.

In conclusion, yeah, I liked it a lot. I'm not an expert on Sengoku Japan, I've just read three or four books on the subject. I can't tell you that everything is spot on accurate in the same way I can with '1917' or 'All Quiet on the Western Front'. But this effort feels authentic in a way that the original Shogun never was. I hope everyone else enjoys the series as much as I have thus far.

Edited March 4 by svensson

[Agentorange]

17 hours ago, svensson said:

So the reboot of the 80's classic TV mini-series SHOGUN is on tonight.

a. That's like Jeff Bridges filling in for John Wayne in True Grit... Those are might big boots you're trying to fill, Sparky, so don't eff it up!

d.... 😁

I have to say, I really liked Jeff Bridges as Rooster. In fact I'm going to stick my neck out and say I like the Coen brothers version better.

[svensson]

23 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

I have to say, I really liked Jeff Bridges as Rooster. In fact I'm going to stick my neck out and say I like the Coen brothers version better.

There were elements of both I liked. I much prefer Hailee Steinfeld over Kim Darby, for example. Steinfeld was a more skilled and polished actor.

I came away from Jeff Bridges' portrayal of Rooster with a 'different, not necessarily better or worse' feeling about it. The Coen Bros. take on Rooster was far more human and less legendary. Where Wayne portrayed the mythological frontier grumpy old cuss, Bridges' work was much more down to Earth. It was a wholly different take on the character and it was interesting to see.

And I thought the analogy of comparing Wayne/Bridges and Mifune/Sanada was applicable here.

Edited February 28 by svensson

[Agentorange]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

And I thought the analogy of comparing Wayne/Bridges and Mifune/Sanada was applicable here.

It's been a long long time since i saw the original shogun. I can remember enjoying both it and the book a great deal. I don't have Disney Plus ( UK )so I'm going to be unable to see the revamp. The trailers look good - let us know what you think.

As a total and complete aside - and probably another thread, when would you consider the  'old west'  to have stopped existing ?

Edited February 28 by Agentorange

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

As a total and complete aside - and probably another thread, when would you consider the  'old west'  to have stopped existing ?

Interesting question. Most US historians consider the Old West to have ended by about 1890 and certainly by 1900. Most consider the Ghost Dance Massacre at Wounded Knee SD to be the historical incident signalling the end of the frontier.

As to the American cultural aspects about the Old West, those lingered until WWII.

[Agentorange]

35 minutes ago, svensson said:

Interesting question. Most US historians consider the Old West to have ended by about 1890 and certainly by 1900. Most consider the Ghost Dance Massacre at Wounded Knee SD to be the historical incident signalling the end of the frontier.

As to the American cultural aspects about the Old West, those lingered until WWII.

The reason i asked was that i watched the Bridges version of True Grit  a few days ago. Even though I'm from the UK I've always enjoyed a good western and I've especially enjoyed westerns set at the end of the era. For Example the Wild Bunch. Ok it's set in the Mexican revolution and you could make the argument it's a kind of war film as well. But I reckon it's a western. Same could be argued for A Fistful of Dynamite. The recent Old Henry is meant to be set about 1910. Butch and Sundances final shootout is historically about 1911 ( I think ) Tom Horn was, what, 1903 ?

Which got me wondering when the wild west actually came to an end ?. I actually spent some some on the net looking at stuff ( wikepedia was actually quite useful ). There were what might be considered old west style gunfights after the turn of the century. And  a few minor Indian fights and skirmishes  after the turn of the century. The closer to the border with mexico the longer it seemed to linger. I've sort of decided on WW1 as being a good cut off point chronologically.

 

[svensson]

Here is an ad to sell the first model of Thompson Submachine Gun [the drum magazine pistol-foregrip 'Capone' version] to homesteaders to drive off 'bandits' ca. 1928 😁

And yeah, there were 'Tombstone' style shootouts in small towns in the Southwest up until the 50s.

[Raleel]

Started it this evening. Like it quite a bit, but I was always going to be a fan 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

...

As to the American cultural aspects about the Old West, those lingered until WWII.

I see downthread where you seem to have shown some evidence to the contrary.  😉

In fact, I'd argue that things like the "Stand Your Ground" laws (and our strikingly-loose gun-laws & acceptance of gun-violence) are still "lingering" cultural aspects.

[svensson]

39 minutes ago, g33k said:

I see downthread where you seem to have shown some evidence to the contrary.  😉

In fact, I'd argue that things like the "Stand Your Ground" laws (and our strikingly-loose gun-laws & acceptance of gun-violence) are still "lingering" cultural aspects.

All 'Stand Your Ground' laws are is the premise that you are not required to be the victim of a crime. You are not legally required to flee a suspect who is obviously and clearly armed. What's more, that is not the law in all states. In California you ARE required to make 'every reasonable effort' to escape. For that matter, my state is not a SYG state, but we don't lay arbitrary check boxes on murders [which Stand Your Ground and the Castle doctrine most assuredly are].

I will freely give and grant that we Americans over-glamorize the gun entirely too much, however I will point out that every single person on this Earth has access to any number of means to commit murder if they choose to. Yes, even mass murder. Just a couple of years ago, there was a series of attacks in France where someone intentionally rammed their truck into parades, pedestrians, and bystanders over political or religious issues [as if there's a difference]. In the early part of the Troubles in the UK the IRA was making bombs out of drain cleaner and bleach. And in the UK, China and Japan there have bee a series of mass stabbings. And now the UK has started mandatory knife confiscations. My point is that if someone wants to kill, they will. Period. And legislating against the tools does nothing to deal with the problem - - the desire to kill.

What's more, it isn't the Old West that gave the US it's love affair with firearms, it was Lexington and Concord. In our mythology [which I admit is only partially true], we fought for our liberty from the British Empire with the rifles and muskets each citizen owned, 'right off the mantle-piece' as it were. That doesn't mean that the frontier didn't substantially add that myth, but the legal concept of our right to be armed for our own defense goes all the way back to Queen Anne's War, if not before.

My main point here is that Europe and Canada have a lot of misconceptions about Americans and firearms ownership, and they tend to reduce a complicated issue down to pithy meme statements. This habit isn't confined to Europeans or Canadians, of course. EVERYBODY dummies down complicated issues into some bullshit 'the way it ought to be' statement in 'meme warfare'.

[Agentorange]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Here is an ad to sell the first model of Thompson Submachine Gun [the drum magazine pistol-foregrip 'Capone' version] to homesteaders to drive off 'bandits' ca. 1928 😁

And yeah, there were 'Tombstone' style shootouts in small towns in the Southwest up until the 50s.

Interesting you should post that - saw it many years ago in a book. But one of the things i felt bought the old west to an end was technology. Ok the Telegraph had existed since the 1840's. But starting with the turn of the 20th century you get: radio communication, motor vehicles, aircraft etc etc. That kind of shrinks ( for want of a better word ) the world - it makes it harder and harder to hide and escape or just plain move on, the world has filled up as it were.

Anyway we're a long way from Shogun now so I'll shut up 😁

[svensson]

14 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Interesting you should post that - saw it many years ago in a book. But one of the things i felt bought the old west to an end was technology. Ok the Telegraph had existed since the 1840's. But starting with the turn of the 20th century you get: radio communication, motor vehicles, aircraft etc etc. That kind of shrinks ( for want of a better word ) the world - it makes it harder and harder to hide and escape or just plain move on, the world has filled up as it were.

Anyway we're a long way from Shogun now so I'll shut up 😁

All of that **absolutely** shrank the world. As I say, I live in Washington State and we have an incredible number of Civil War veterans who died here. They wanted to get the Hell away from anything with a telegraph line or a railroad connecting it.

[Ian Absentia]

On 2/27/2024 at 6:54 PM, svensson said:

So the reboot of the 80's classic TV mini-series SHOGUN is on tonight.

...or a new adaptation of the James Clavell novel.  I haven't gotten far into the new series, but I'm counting on it to stand on its own and hoping it steers away from a lot of the exoticism of the '80s adaptation.

!I!

[svensson]

19 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

...or a new adaptation of the James Clavell novel.  I haven't gotten far into the new series, but I'm counting on it to stand on its own and hoping it steers away from a lot of the exoticism of the '80s adaptation.

!I!

It absolutely does. See my review of the first episode above. My wife and I were equally impressed with the second episode.

[zanshin]

As a long time fan of the book (first acquired thanks to the strong recommendation of it in Bushido - the RPG) loving the new adaptation. They have made a number of changes from the book, but they work. Very good adaptation indeed. The actors of Blackthorne, Mariko and Toranaga deserve the plaudits they get, but Yabushige and Fuji are also portrayed brilliantly - Yabushige as the least zen of the Daimyo and Fuji brittly holding herself to her duty in the face of unimaginable loss.

Superb.

[svensson]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:24 AM, zanshin said:

As a long time fan of the book (first acquired thanks to the strong recommendation of it in Bushido - the RPG) loving the new adaptation. They have made a number of changes from the book, but they work. Very good adaptation indeed. The actors of Blackthorne, Mariko and Toranaga deserve the plaudits they get, but Yabushige and Fuji are also portrayed brilliantly - Yabushige as the least zen of the Daimyo and Fuji brittly holding herself to her duty in the face of unimaginable loss.

Superb.

I wholeheartedly agree. And Kiku being the little manipulator instead of 'the happy hooker' she is portrayed in the book as.

I think Naga is pretty spot-on... a young man with a legendary father trying to make his own mark without the wisdom necessary to do so

I also like the characterization of Blackthorne a lot. He's portrayed as a desperate man playing a lousy hand of cards with every trick he knows.

As for Shogun and RPGs, I'm a big fan of the Legend of the 5 Rings RPG [though oddly enough not so much the card game]. When the game was at the top of its popularity John Wick [the author and designer, not the assassin] was asked about an L5R movie. His reply was classic... "How could we possibly make a 5 Rings movie? Master Toshiro is dead..."

[zanshin]

Episode 9 - just wow. 

If ever insight was wanted into how intensely different cultures can be, this stands out.

The acting by Anna Sawa (Mariko) - extraordinary.