Faces of the Bat

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Which is why I expect a lot less bat symbology and a lot more hummingbird symbology in Lunar temples serving the faithful.

Bat, hummingbird, pterosaur (just me), hummingbird moth, or hummingbird hawk-moth, or … Whichever it is — what day of the week is it? — isn’t the steed of the Goddess just an aspect of the Goddess herself, rather than a fully distinct entity? Multiplicity is to be expected. How long is any true bat’s tongue? But a hummingbird’s is long, as is a moth’s proboscis, more in keeping with familiar iconography and all the better for slurping up souls as if they were nectar. Trochilus pella or Trochilus Peloria?

The more terrible the aspect the Bat presents, the more it symbolises the Red Goddess’s ties to the middle world and to power. Don’t think of the Bat being banished if she is starved, think of her being liberated from the middle world if she ceases to commit atrocities. The Red Goddess–Crimson Bat is tortured every time she is fed. The Goddess is like the Legalists’ ideal emperor, nominally in charge but in reality trapped at the heart of the machine.

Perhaps the last form of the Bat seen in this world will be something like the final stage of a mayfly: “adults do not feed and have only vestigial mouthparts, while their digestive systems are filled with air” — ooh! symbolic.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

isn’t the steed of the Goddess just an aspect of the Goddess herself, rather than a fully distinct entity?

Didn't want to mention it, miss, but there's an odd growth with wings under your feet.....

[Eff]

The hummingbird is a symbol of ferocity and rebirth in Mexican contexts, which Stafford had recently had a transformative experience with. The faithful seeing a hummingbird is a symbol for them seeing the rebirth of Teelo Estara as Teelo Imara, the fierce protector goddess rising into the sky and swooping down on their oppressors. But the unfaithful see only death, Maha Quata. 

What would it say that people see a bat today? That requires thinking symbolically.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

What would it say that people see a bat today?

The natural enemy of the moth, so the pair represents self-overcoming, like Arkat–Nysalor off in the corner screaming “Gbaji” and beating himself up?

[scott-martin]

My summer is Mexico's bat season because all their hummingbirds are up here drinking my red sugar water and I rejoice.

When they go home again I only have bats to console me and they have slightly stronger tastes.

[Memestream]

On 4/15/2024 at 12:03 PM, Eff said:

The hummingbird is a symbol of ferocity and rebirth in Mexican contexts, which Stafford had recently had a transformative experience with.

Okay so I had come to read Lunars are something roughly comparable to the Mexica(among other things!). However, it wasn't until this hummingbird stuff that I started to draw comparisons with Huitzilopochtli. Heck, just typing out Huitzilopochtli starts making me look at those names of the Seven Mothers differently. That's a lot to chew on, especially when looking at the myth of the Left Handed Hummingbird's birth.

 

On 4/15/2024 at 12:03 PM, Eff said:

What would it say that people see a bat today? That requires thinking symbolically.

Well, bats eat pests. 😛

I live in an area with a really large bat population, we're talking world class. I've heard supposedly educated people insist they don't eat enough mosquitos to matter, and I just plain don't believe them. 

But really, it's an ugly thing that does an ugly thing to ugly things. After the bat eats all of the irredeemable apostates and souls that stubbornly refuse enlightenment, we won't have a need for it anymore. We'll all ascend into an illuminated state and reconcile chaos with the rest of it!

But at present, ugly things exist, and so there's a need to tolerate, and even embrace this ugly process of blowing them out. Of course, given that we're talking about lunars, this isn't just a matter of getting rid of the literal pests, but the pests that reside within our souls, our own pestilent nature. The parasite of the persona as it were.

There's also the bit from Lives of Sedenya wherein she falls through darkness. I can't think of anything better to be than a bat if I ever find myself in that situation. 

A bat doesn't need solid ground to stand on. A bat doesn't need light to "see." It's perfectly adapted to existing in an unmoored state of axiomatic poverty.

 

[EricW]

The bat is the proof the goddess is an agent of destruction. Things eaten by the bat are lost to the void.

As the empire expands so does the region of destruction - central provinces are spared the bat only because they have already fully submitted to and are aiding chaos, but as the corruption of the empire rises, their suffering increases.

How is this qualitatively different to being in Wakboth’s army? It’s just a little slower, that’s all.

The empire cloaks its wickedness in nysalorian good chaos, presenting itself as a positive influence, but it spreads the destruction of the world, one bat size mouthful at a time, and the suffering rises for all as the dawn of the monster empire approaches.

[mfbrandi]

24 minutes ago, EricW said:

The bat is the proof the goddess is an agent of destruction. Things eaten by the bat are lost to the void.

• The cult promises nothing about life after death, except that loyal and lucky cultists will be spared the eternal agony of being eaten by the Bat.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic PDF, p. 70)

Well, neither eternal agony nor eternal bliss correspond to my idea of being chucked down the memory hole — pfft! gone.

However, in your defence:

• Seven Mothers
• Red Goddess  
• Crimson Bat  

That is, the Bat does seem to supply the “missing” death component — the bat is the flipside of the RG, as Arkat is the flipside of Nysalor. In each case, it is the same entity, but seen from a different angle. One thing, not two (and not four).

Spoiler

If Rashoran(a) = Nysalor = the RG, then Arkat = the Bat? Well, why not? The RG defeated Nysalor, and Arkat defeated the Bat, but Glorantha is the land of punching oneself in the face and cutting off one’s own head. It shows a proper commitment to entanglement, or something …

So saying being eaten by the Bat is eternal agony is the flipside of saying that union with the RG is eternal bliss, but we know it is the same thing — pick which side of the press release to read (or look at it edge on) — even if we don’t necessarily feel the same way about it. 😉

[Memestream]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

How is this qualitatively different to being in Wakboth’s army? It’s just a little slower, that’s all.

As much as I hate to say it, the answer to this seems to rest on consequences. 

I definitely read both Wakboth's mess and Lunar ideology as nihilistic, at least in as much as they both seem to put forward that nothing you can experience within Glorantha is truly meaningful. Where they differ comes after that common base though.

Wakboth seems to go on and suggest that not only is everything in Glorantha meaningless, meaning doesn't exist, period.

The Lunar party line at least seems to suggest that after ridding yourself of attachment to things that are essentially meaningless, you will be able to step out of the cave into an authentic meaningful self-reality-thing. If that's all one self-deceptive delusion that gets you to poke holes in the bottom of your boat adrift in the sea of chaos, well woops it seems it was actually just the devil in disguise yet again. Then again, maybe it turns out you're a fish and didn't need the boat after all!

That said, and perhaps it's naive on my part, but I think when it comes to something as fundamental as meaning, intent actually matters. If you're doing it in the name of something(which admittedly might not be a good thing!) or anything at all for that matter, versus in the name of nothing at all, that's a truly night and day difference. 

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

So saying being eaten by the Bat is eternal agony is the flipside of saying that union with the RG is eternal bliss, but we know it is the same thing — pick which side of the press release to read (or look at it edge on) — even if we don’t necessarily feel the same way about it. 😉

Well the bat obviously sucks because it's taking people out of your context. It's making your world smaller, duller, and scarier. Then again, it's not like we have any first hand accounts from those who have been eaten by the bat to rely on. Maybe they are enjoying life outside of the prison cell while the rest of us hang out in a world of shadows. Maybe it's all about our own selfish needy compromised nature that we can't appreciate that they've been freed from the constraints of our being.

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, Memestream said:

I definitely read both Wakboth's mess and Lunar ideology as nihilistic, at least in as much as they both seem to put forward that nothing you can experience within Glorantha is truly meaningful. Where they differ comes after that common base though.

Wakboth seems to go on and suggest that not only is everything in Glorantha meaningless, meaning doesn't exist, period.

The Lunar party line at least seems to suggest that after ridding yourself of attachment to things that are essentially meaningless, you will be able to step out of the cave into an authentic meaningful self-reality-thing. If that's all one self-deceptive delusion that gets you to poke holes in the bottom of your boat adrift in the sea of chaos, well woops it seems it was actually just the devil in disguise yet again. Then again, maybe it turns out you're a fish and didn't need the boat after all!

I am very interested in the thinking that went into this, if you're fine with me asking for elaboration. It's always good to see someone's explorations of the red corner of the board game, for me.

[scott-martin]

How is the devil different from a (shamanic) bad man?
How does bad man factor into mysticism, if that's what the goddess does? Or is there a deep shamanic component to the lunar way?
Is something like the bat what happens when a shaman binds their own bad man? Vice versa? Third option?
Is the Spolite thing best understood as a fusion of sorcery and shamanism, with or without mysticism?
Does the sun have a shadow? Do Golden Bow shamans have a bad man?
What is the black orbiter and does the bat live there
and who shall I say is calling
 

Edited May 8 by scott-martin
eleventh question

[Eff]

34 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

How is the devil different from a (shamanic) bad man?
How does bad man factor into mysticism, if that's what the goddess does? Or is there a deep shamanic component to the lunar way?
Is something like the bat what happens when a shaman binds their own bad man? Vice versa? Third option?
Is the Spolite thing best understood as a fusion of sorcery and shamanism, with or without mysticism?
Does the sun have a shadow? Do Golden Bow shamans have a bad man?
What is the black orbiter and does the bat live there
and who shall I say is calling
 

I have an off-the-cuff thought that the Bat is described as a fighter against Chaos enslaved by the armies of Chaos in the Great Darkness. This is assuredly postcanonical, God Learner behavior to even bring it up. But let's unwind the notion that "everything is made of everything". That includes Chaos, by definition. Everything has a little bit of Chaos. Everything is Chaotic. Everyone is Chaotic. The Bat can see that. With enough of a connection to the Bat, formed by giving parts of yourself to the Bat through sacrifice, the Bat can be forced to see the Chaos in a pleasant little town like Runegate, seething and popping. 

By looking through the eyes of the Bat, you start to see it too. When you're initiated, on a 00 (in the cult I have and you can see right now by paying money to Chaosium), the Bat eats you instead. I suppose, then, that in this Glorontha fragment I'm sketching out, the initiation opens you up to the fact that you are filled with Chaos too. The Bat looks at you and you know that you deserve to be devoured. The Chaos in you is inimical to life, or so you think, if you're not enlightened. But you can't not think about it, it's like not thinking of a giant crimson bat. And sometimes, the Bat sees something and knows she must eat it to keep the world safe from the Chaos which is randomly near the forefront of the person. 

That public-facing cult bars people who have obvious chaotic features from advancing to the point of learning how to control the Bat. This might be practical- the Bat feels the itch and tries to get its enemies off her back. This might be more philosophical- what if you stacked Chaotic world-pain-sense with you-deserve-this battiness? And then allowed them to direct the Bat? And this might be, if you take this Glorontha and then look at it harshly or cynically enough, a way to prevent the Bat from realizing she's still flayed alive and bleeding. 

What would happen if a Boristi-shriven (assuming they haven't been nuked into Gloruntha) person encountered the Bat? What would the Bat see?

Just my 2clacks, of course. Your Glorontha Will Vory.

[Memestream]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

I am very interested in the thinking that went into this, if you're fine with me asking for elaboration. It's always good to see someone's explorations of the red corner of the board game, for me.

Gladly. I will disclaim beforehand that my knowledge of Lunars is sophomoric at best though, and most of my take on them comes from a combination of what I've picked up from The Life of Sedenya, the Entekiosad, and filling in the blanks in my understanding by drawing parallels to various bits of real world mythologies and religious practices.

I forget exactly where I read it, I was pretty sure it was the Book of Heortling Mythology, but the stories repeat and are rewritten so many times I can't conveniently find it. (I also want to respect the house I'm in and not unwittingly infringe on copyright)

To paraphrase, it's stated within during one telling of the compromise that all of the gods brought something to creation in spite of their enmity and challenges with one another, and that suffering was already a part of the story, but Wakboth's only 'contribution' was that he made the suffering much worse than it needed to be in order for the world to be made. Even the Unholy Trio brought (bad) things to creation that were uniquely their own. Not Wakboth though, he just made it worse for everyone involved. I take from this that he has no agenda as such, he's just there to deflate everyone else's agenda. Agenda is too light though, he's there to deflate and rob everyone else of their joie de vivre, their essential reason for their agenda, their selves. He's like Luther, the leader of the rogues from The Warriors(1979), "Why did you waste Cyrus?" "No reason, I just like doing things like that." 

On the same hand, the other Gods get up to all sorts of bad behavior, but it's for a reason. It could be argued that Orlanth killed Yelm because he "just likes doing things like that," but that's sure as heck not the explanation that Orlanth would give, or even the third, fourth, or fifth one. The rest of the Gods do their thing because their thing is fundamental to who they are. Wakboth has no thing. Without the other Gods he wouldn't exist, the closest thing to a thing he has is crapping on other people's things.

Maybe the Chaos rune changes that though? I seriously don't know. Even then though, where I see the chaos rune in Glorantha, I still see a Melkor-esque perversion of other things, not the creation of things themselves.

From there, it gets more into a personal relationship with nihilism as a philosophy, emotional state, and persuasion. Nothing stops me dead in the tracks of my joyful reverie like the thought, "Yeah, it's ultimately pointless though." Which, everything taken in a vacuum is very much just exactly that from my perspective, utterly pointless. I've thought long and hard about a tree falling in the woods with nobody around to hear it, and as far as I'm convinced, it doesn't make a sound. I've encountered people who alleged otherwise(probably devil worshippers!) but nihilism has never inspired me to do a darned thing other than feel bad.

But a tree in context, a tree that's heard, that suddenly means something for a reason I can't comprehend. Just like it suddenly meant something when the web of Arachne Solara bound all of the Gods to one another in concerted relevance. The things they all did suddenly meant something because now the things they all do will add up to something beyond them as individuals, and this is what defeated the Devil.

Cue Sedenya, "to live is to suffer, but to suffer is not to live." There's a bizarre, almost mathematical, logic about this statement for me. It also highlights something of a contradiction to what I said above. Glorantha is a web made to catch the fly that's Wakboth, so it wouldn't be too ridiculous to consider that "No Wakboth = No Glorantha." To live one must suffer, but the state of suffering is itself not living. The Great Red Goddess says, "No problem G, I got this on lock, that ain't Wakboth, that's THE GREAT MYSTERY." Suddenly, Wakboth has meaning, albeit inscrutably so by definition as a mystery. There is a point to this crappiness, to his crappiness, but without illumination we cannot understand it, but the Red Goddess has a placeholder for her unilluminated followers to tide them over, "The Victory shall be ours!" That victory is the moment everyone gets why Wakboth is so crappy, when everyone understands the great mystery, and it most assuredly is happening. Even though you don't know it yet, that painful hangnail, stubbed toe, and watching the bat eat a hundred children just educated you a bit, however imperceptibly. It's okay if you don't get it though, because "you are not yourself," you are not your family, you are not your clan, these are all masks upon the faceless face(just like the devil was, you're actually the devil!), which you are in the process of becoming(hell, you may already be a winner!) right now in this very instant no matter what you happen to be doing. Everything is pointless because everything is equally valid, there's no forward or backward, we're all us on the same train going to the same place, but it's a good place. Not because the devil doesn't exist there, but because you'll be able to exist(and act...or whatever the appropriate equivalent of acting will be) in a way that isn't oriented around avoiding him.

58 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

How is the devil different from a (shamanic) bad man?

I was wondering this while reading the "Meeting Wakboth" thread prior to registering. I can't detect a meaningful difference, and it seems to me that the shamanic rite of initiation is something of a "I fought, we won" event. Now that I have registered though, I'm probably going to weigh in fully on that thread too about this.

Edited May 8 by Memestream
formatting error

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Memestream said:

Gladly. I will disclaim beforehand that my knowledge of Lunars is sophomoric at best though, and most of my take on them comes from a combination of what I've picked up from The Life of Sedenya, the Entekiosad, and filling in the blanks in my understanding by drawing parallels to various bits of real world mythologies and religious practices.

I forget exactly where I read it, I was pretty sure it was the Book of Heortling Mythology, but the stories repeat and are rewritten so many times I can't conveniently find it. (I also want to respect the house I'm in and not unwittingly infringe on copyright)

To paraphrase, it's stated within during one telling of the compromise that all of the gods brought something to creation in spite of their enmity and challenges with one another, and that suffering was already a part of the story, but Wakboth's only 'contribution' was that he made the suffering much worse than it needed to be in order for the world to be made. Even the Unholy Trio brought (bad) things to creation that were uniquely their own. Not Wakboth though, he just made it worse for everyone involved. I take from this that he has no agenda as such, he's just there to deflate everyone else's agenda. Agenda is too light though, he's there to deflate and rob everyone else of their joie de vivre, their essential reason for their agenda, their selves. He's like Luther, the leader of the rogues from The Warriors(1979), "Why did you waste Cyrus?" "No reason, I just like doing things like that." 

On the same hand, the other Gods get up to all sorts of bad behavior, but it's for a reason. It could be argued that Orlanth killed Yelm because he "just likes doing things like that," but that's sure as heck not the explanation that Orlanth would give, or even the third, fourth, or fifth one. The rest of the Gods do their thing because their thing is fundamental to who they are. Wakboth has no thing. Without the other Gods he wouldn't exist, the closest thing to a thing he has is crapping on other people's things.

Maybe the Chaos rune changes that though? I seriously don't know. Even then though, where I see the chaos rune in Glorantha, I still see a Melkor-esque perversion of other things, not the creation of things themselves.

From there, it gets more into a personal relationship with nihilism as a philosophy, emotional state, and persuasion. Nothing stops me dead in the tracks of my joyful reverie like the thought, "Yeah, it's ultimately pointless though." Which, everything taken in a vacuum is very much just exactly that from my perspective, utterly pointless. I've thought long and hard about a tree falling in the woods with nobody around to hear it, and as far as I'm convinced, it doesn't make a sound. I've encountered people who alleged otherwise(probably devil worshippers!) but nihilism has never inspired me to do a darned thing other than feel bad.

But a tree in context, a tree that's heard, that suddenly means something for a reason I can't comprehend. Just like it suddenly meant something when the web of Arachne Solara bound all of the Gods to one another in concerted relevance. The things they all did suddenly meant something because now the things they all do will add up to something beyond them as individuals, and this is what defeated the Devil.

Cue Sedenya, "to live is to suffer, but to suffer is not to live." There's a bizarre, almost mathematical, logic about this statement for me. It also highlights something of a contradiction to what I said above. Glorantha is a web made to catch the fly that's Wakboth, so it wouldn't be too ridiculous to consider that "No Wakboth = No Glorantha." To live one must suffer, but the state of suffering is itself not living. The Great Red Goddess says, "No problem G, I got this on lock, that ain't Wakboth, that's THE GREAT MYSTERY." Suddenly, Wakboth has meaning, albeit inscrutably so by definition as a mystery. There is a point to this crappiness, to his crappiness, but without illumination we cannot understand it, but the Red Goddess has a placeholder for her unilluminated followers to tide them over, "The Victory shall be ours!" That victory is the moment everyone gets why Wakboth is so crappy, when everyone understands the great mystery, and it most assuredly is happening. Even though you don't know it yet, that painful hangnail, stubbed toe, and watching the bat eat a hundred children just educated you a bit, however imperceptibly. It's okay if you don't get it though, because "you are not yourself," you are not your family, you are not your clan, these are all masks upon the faceless face(just like the devil was, you're actually the devil!), which you are in the process of becoming(hell, you may already be a winner!) right now in this very instant no matter what you happen to be doing. Everything is pointless because everything is equally valid, there's no forward or backward, we're all us on the same train going to the same place, but it's a good place. Not because the devil doesn't exist there, but because you'll be able to exist(and act...or whatever the appropriate equivalent of acting will be) in a way that isn't oriented around avoiding him.

I was wondering this while reading the "Meeting Wakboth" thread prior to registering. I can't detect a meaningful difference, and it seems to me that the shamanic rite of initiation is something of a "I fought, we won" event. Now that I have registered though, I'm probably going to weigh in fully on that thread too about this.

Thank you! It is heartily appreciated, and you have no need in my book to call your Lunars a product of anything close to a sophomoric understanding!

[Ormi Phengaria]

19 hours ago, Memestream said:

To paraphrase, it's stated within during one telling of the compromise that all of the gods brought something to creation in spite of their enmity and challenges with one another, and that suffering was already a part of the story, but Wakboth's only 'contribution' was that he made the suffering much worse than it needed to be in order for the world to be made. Even the Unholy Trio brought (bad) things to creation that were uniquely their own. Not Wakboth though, he just made it worse for everyone involved. I take from this that he has no agenda as such, he's just there to deflate everyone else's agenda. Agenda is too light though, he's there to deflate and rob everyone else of their joie de vivre, their essential reason for their agenda, their selves.

Contrast Kajabor, who in his consequence is identical to Wakboth, but dissolves the world because he must, i.e. is natural evil. Our ideas of moral evil are the mask we make this Devil wear. By recognizing its agency and personality, we allow the possibility of challenging it in ourselves and in others. In acknowledging that we mortals have the power to worsen our lives of suffering and dissatisfaction, we acknowledge that we also have the power to refuse it or fight it.

That is Wakboth's contribution to Time. He was spun into eternity because we will always be fighting him to preserve the universe, wherever compromise fails.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:23 AM, Eff said:

the Bat is described as a fighter against Chaos enslaved by the armies of Chaos in the Great Darkness. This is assuredly postcanonical, God Learner behavior to even bring it up. But let's unwind the notion that "everything is made of everything". That includes Chaos, by definition. Everything has a little bit of Chaos. Everything is Chaotic. Everyone is Chaotic. The Bat can see that. With enough of a connection to the Bat, formed by giving parts of yourself to the Bat through sacrifice, the Bat can be forced to see the Chaos in a pleasant little town like Runegate, seething and popping. 

Or the bat doesn’t fight against chaos but fight for chaos :

as there is chaos in everything the bat can see it and free it when it « eats » the jail, aka the people. So priests of the bat are just tool the bat accepts to serve if they serve its plan well. But sometimes it cannot stop its desire of freedom and save the chaos part of one priest/ initiate (the 00 roll)