Manirean Road

[Squaredeal Sten]

Has anyone fleshed out the Manirean Road and the Trader Princes ( in addition to the Maniria chapter of the Guide to Glorantha, volume one)?

I am not aware of any published adventure material there.  

 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am not aware of any published adventure material there. 

The old Hero Wars/HeroQuest work Blood Over Gold had content on the Manirian Road, though now out-of-print. Also Tradetalk #10 is focused on this region (and still available at DriveThruRPG: Tradetalk # 10 - Wenelia & Ramalia Special - RuneQuest Gesellschaft e.V. | DriveThruRPG )

Otherwise some reference in the Guide, but no JC works yet.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Interesting:  Neither in the Guide nor in Tradetalk 10 is there anything approaching a definite route for the Manirean Road.  And few places are stated to be on the Road.  

Tradetalk 10 doesn't even use the phrase "Manirean Road".  It only refers once to "the Wenelian Road".    It is mostly concerned with the pig  hsunchen ,  and with the Hsunchen features of the ostensibly Orlanthi populace.

In the Guide, the small city of Staton is stated to be "the gateway to the Manirean Road".  Staton is on the p.359 map, in the Ditali Valley. very near Cakadraland and on the Gorphing River.

The Trader Prince of Jiraz is stated to charge tolls on the road, bur he is also king of Nimisfar which extends North and South, so it is only implied that Jiraz might be on the road.  (GTG p.356).  Jiraz is in the middle of the p.358-359 maps, at the gutter, and also shows on the p.355 map. 

Tradetalk 10 p.29 says DIZBOS is the western terminus of "the trade road" but I can't find it on the maps.

So this was unexpected by me: There is no specific route for "the Manirean road".  I wonder: is it a specific  road route, or only a figure of speech like "Go west. young man"?  Does it mean just take trails west from Staton, as long as you stay between the Arstola forest and the sea?  This puts a much different picture in my head  than I had in my mind this morning.

 

Edited July 11 by Squaredeal Sten
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[metcalph]

 

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Tradetalk 10 doesn't even use the phrase "Manirean Road".  It only refers once to "the Wenelian Road".    It is mostly concerned with the pig  hsunchen ,  and with the Hsunchen features of the ostensibly Orlanthi populace.

Perhaps if you used "Manirian Road" instead.

 

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Tradetalk 10 p.29 says DIZBOS is the western terminus of "the trade road" but I can't find it on the maps.

Dizbos is in South Esrolia.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

 

Perhaps if you used "Manirian Road" instead.

 

 

 

No, "Manirian Road" is not found in the PDF.

Just searching for "road".

p.4 "Yolanda has struggled for survival since the demise of the Trade through the Old Wenelian Road."

 

[M Helsdon]

Jeff has previously shared Greg's map on FaceBook of the road network in the Holy Country, extending off to the west, and the navigable rivers.

The Manirian Road extends to the west from Esrolia, and as the Gorphing is navigable far inland, the 'road' probably becomes the river at Staton, as it is generally easier and cheaper to move goods downriver than in caravans by road. No doubt some caravans continue east by land. Rhigos is the terminus if not the eastern gateway of the Manirian Road (Staton is where the trade route becomes dominated by the Trader Princes) and grew rich on its trade, declining in the last century since the Opening of the Seas. The Road isn't a single caravan route, at least in the east, but a network of roads and rivers. At the far left, there's an arrow pointing out the route to the west.

Edited July 11 by M Helsdon

[Squaredeal Sten]

Martin Helsdon,

thanks for the Holy Country road & river map.  I had treated it a little more arbitrarily in last week's game, assuming there was a direct western road link that didn't go through Caladraland.  I will modify the sketch map i had made, to indicate that the route runs through Vinvale, since as it turned out I didn't have to show that sketch to the players.

Not to say that Jeff Richard hasn't discussed it fairly recently, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-manirian-road-and-the-trader-princes/

where he says it is "a trade route' (which I interpret as its being some definite route.  I may be wrong.)

But it still seems to be an undefined definite route, most of which is in Maniria.  At least until someone publishes a map or itinerary via Jonstown Compendium.

  .

 

Edited July 11 by Squaredeal Sten
saw MH's post

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

where he says it is "a trade route' (which I interpret as its being some definite route.  I may be wrong.)

Ancient trade routes rarely had a single road, unless they were along a river.

For example, the western ends of the Silk Road were Byzantium (Constantinople), Antioch, Damascus, and other Middle Eastern cities. Even the main route across central Asia had spurs and various different trails. The map below doesn't show the main caravan routes south into India. All were part of the Silk Road.

The map below is not definitive, and I would not expect the Manirian Road to have a definitive single trail, though the Trader Prince settlements will be nodes on those trails. It's a modern thing to assume there's a single main road. Weather, season, the political situation, will invariably result in different trails being taken. A map of the Manirian Road would probably show a tangle of trails, not a single road.

Another model, perhaps more applicable to Genertela are the ancient trade routes across North America, which followed trails and rivers, but were less linear than the Silk Road. This map is far from complete and it doesn't attempt to show the actual routes used. The region most similar to the Manirian Road is perhaps the west coast.

Edited July 11 by M Helsdon

[Squaredeal Sten]

To me the Silk Road map looks pretty linear even though it splits around The Taklemaken ? desert?  and recombines.

I expect I will examine the Manirean maps closely to identify choke points.   Staton must be the easternmost choke point outside of Esrolia.   

The river valleys mostly run north-south. which makes them inconvenient for east-west movement,  so I judge the best crossing points between the valleys  will be " the road".

 

Edited July 11 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[M Helsdon]

26 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

To me the Silk Road map looks pretty linear even though it splits aroubf The Taklemaken ? desert?  and recombines.

That's a very large scale map - if it were possible to zoom in, it would become more messy, and much of its route is through deserts, not the forests of Maniria.

26 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I expect I will examine the Manirean maps closely to identify choke points.   Staton must be the easternmost choke point outside of Esrolia.   

Staton is a political and economic center - I expect caravans have to go there to pay tolls.

26 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The river valleys mostly run north-south. which makes them inconvenient for east-west movement,  so I judge the best crossing points between the valleys  will be " the road".

Most have tributaries suggesting river valleys running east-west, if you examine the Argan Argar Atlas. Probably many trails through the forests, but no single road. 

Edited July 11 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

Let's trace the west-east route of the Manirian road:

Drom - Bastis (a region) - Highwater - Yolanda - Jaraz - Selgos - Ferry - Fort Digger - Bath - Saltcastle - Staton.

Now Fay Jee is an outlier, but various routes can be imagined between these places, and we know there are more than forty other Trader Prince locations where there are Tombs of Castelain, and looking at the maps there look to be various possible trails between the known locations. 

From Staton, you are no longer in Trader Prince territory, and probably head to Rhigos by the Gorphing river.

Edited July 11 by M Helsdon

[AlexS]

@Nevermet has done some really useful thinking about Maniria, most of which can be found in the ‘Manirian Scratchpad’ thread, including a post with a great map of the Road (and associated inland-coastal trade routes) here: 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, AlexS said:

including a post with a great map of the Road (and associated inland-coastal trade routes)

The map is here: 

[Nevermet]

11 hours ago, AlexS said:

@Nevermet has done some really useful thinking about Maniria, most of which can be found in the ‘Manirian Scratchpad’ thread, including a post with a great map of the Road (and associated inland-coastal trade routes) here: 

Hello!

 

Sorry I wasn't paying attention.  Just got caught up on the thread. I haven't re-read those threads of mine in a few years.  I probably changed my mind on a few things for IMG, but I'm unsure what.

 

But yes, the Manirian Road (which appears to be the current name) is less a literal road and more a network of trade routes through Maniria that connect Esrolia to Safelster.  At its peak, Maniria was still a relatively rural area compared to Esrolia or Safelster.  Dense forests on hilly terrain, with "cities" that were relatively small in terms of population, but with well fortified walls and a lot of wealth for the rulers of the cities.  The Trader Princes then use this wealth to buy loyalty from the Manirian tribes that live along the rivers, and hire Pralori mercenaries.

 

I said "at its peak", which is important.  Maniria at the moment is in a bit of upheaval.  A generation ago, Dormal effectively broke the Trader Princes, as one can now skip most of their overland trade route by taking a ship to Handra. The Trader Princes of the Solanthi and Ditali (central & eastern Maniria) lost control of the Manirian Tribes due to their loss of trade revenue, and this resulted in the rise of the Manirian warlord Graymayne.  And he just died along with his 2 heirs at Pennel Ford.  So most of the Trader Prince territories are now in a super messy power vacuum.  It's a mess.

 

The Western Trader Princes have faired a bit better.  They are now reorganizing trade to go south to the Mournsea, and Fay Jee is actively trying to figure out how to take Handra down.  Handra, meanwhile, has been growing fast due to trade and refugees.

 

However, Maniria can't have nice things: The booming sea trade is just now getting disrupted by the Wolf Pirates, which is a mess.  IMG, the Vadeli will be showing up in the Mournsea in a year or two.  Also, in under a decade, the Reforestation will occur, which will continue to disrupt and destabilize Manirian society.  The Wenelian Coast (sometimes called the New Coast), will be spared from the Reforestation, but it will have to deal with all the Manirian refugees fleeing the forest.

[M Helsdon]

5 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Maniria at the moment is in a bit of upheaval. 

True and so is Safelster as Seshnela brings war to southern Ralios.

Instead of trade, the Road may become a conduit for refugees heading south and east - perhaps heading to Esrolia via Handra or overland. And something nasty is lurking deep under Fay Jee....

[Nevermet]

23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

True and so is Safelster as Seshnela brings war to southern Ralios.

Instead of trade, the Road may become a conduit for refugees heading south and east - perhaps heading to Esrolia via Handra or overland. And something nasty is lurking deep under Fay Jee....

Yup
But I would say the type of upheaval is different in Maniria.  Not better or worse necessarily, but different.  The dominant regional power (The Trader Princes) imploded, and the likely successor (Graymayne's Neo-Entruling Manirians) has also imploded. And trade has been replaced with refugees.

 

Also, thank you for reminding me I still have to buy Ships & Shores... its been a busy summer.  I'm sure it will change how I think about things. (EDIT: That has been corrected 🙂 )

Edited July 12 by Nevermet

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The map is here: 

So what is the difference between the black routes and the white routes?  Obviously the white includes sea routes, but it also includes land routes.

[M Helsdon]

46 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Also, thank you for reminding me I still have to buy Ships & Shores... its been a busy summer.  I'm sure it will change how I think about things. (EDIT: That has been corrected 🙂 )

Thank you.

[Nevermet]

33 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So what is the difference between the black routes and the white routes?  Obviously the white includes sea routes, but it also includes land routes.

Black is primary, white is secondary.  Up until the Opening, there was very little reason to get to the coast.  And while the TPs love Mostali goods, getting to them means dealing with the Volcano tribes (culturally Caladralanders, but politically independent).