Talking with ancestors and ghosts

[zifar]

I have a gaming related issue with spells likes summon ancestor and summon ghost. The problem is: What king of conversations could you have with them? What kind of questions they can answer?.

I see that this can wreck totally some games, for example a scenario where someone was killed: why not just summon his ghost and ask him who is the assassin or any detail about any mystery that concern the players?. This destroys the tension of a lot of scenarios and makes any scenario based in a murder scenario unfunny.

Yes, some of this issues can happen with the resurrect spell but it is more expensive, limited (7 days, body usable) and the caster can fail to force the spirit to return.

Also i have a problem with worl-building and  credibility with this two spells. A lot of the mysteries of the world would banish if you can contact ghosts or ancestors and interrogate them. Yes, some will lie or give one-side versions but anyway..

I think that some of you would say that after death the ghost or the ancestor will not speak straight but how i play that? where i draw the line?

Edited September 13 by zifar

[Shiningbrow]

I think it depends on how you want to handle them.

For ancestors, they may not have much memory of their former lives, and their understanding is more of the time they spent in their afterlife, but are also quite good (or bad, depending on how you see/use it) at remembering whether they've been honoured and respected enough.  Alternatively, they do remember their lives, and are able to tell you quite a few details -which, granted, isn't usually useful, but knowledge cultists find it handy. Usually, this isn't greatly useful in a game, but occasionally can be in the right situations.

As for ghosts of the decently departed... well, firstly, you've got Divination anyway, so it sort of makes it moot. Secondly, they're not omniscient, and so can easily make mistakes - after all, they've just been killed - there's nothing to suggest that they're emotionally or mentally stable at this point.. there's still the shock factor! Thirdly, they may not even have the information being sought. Maybe they weren't looking the right way, it was dark, or (somewhat more obviously, given that Gloranthans know about the use of such spells or shamanic abilities) the killer simply wore a mask so they couldn't be identified! Or, maybe the spirit can't come back?? Or there's a Divination Block in place???

And then there's simply GM plot... don't have a murder mystery for which such spells and abilities can be used effectively for whatever reason. I know that GMs can't be expected to think of everything their players may do, but I'd say this is a pretty basic level thing to be thinking about.

[soltakss]

I certainly cannot remember everything that happened in my life. Ghost have the additional trauma of having died, so their memories might be more fractured.

I would say that ghosts can remember snippets about their lives but not more than that. They might remember how they died, or who killed them, or the trauma might be so great that they block out who killed them, who knows?

Ghosts are not likely to make more sense than speaking with elderly relatives who remember certain things from their youth but not a lot from yesterday.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

As for ghosts of the decently departed... well, firstly, you've got Divination anyway, so it sort of makes it moot.

Divination is not a catch-all spell for knowing things. Deities can only know what they have seen, or what they have been told. I don't see how Divination can help here.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

And then there's simply GM plot... don't have a murder mystery for which such spells and abilities can be used effectively for whatever reason. I know that GMs can't be expected to think of everything their players may do, but I'd say this is a pretty basic level thing to be thinking about.

Murder mysteries where the Adventurers can summon up the recently departed and ask them whodunnit are not much fun.

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Divination is not a catch-all spell for knowing things. Deities can only know what they have seen, or what they have been told. I don't see how Divination can help here.

Oh, I don't think it is....

And, I think that a deity *may* (debatable point for other reasons**) know what has happened to their Initiates... perhaps how they died (due to the sudden change in their circumstances).

 

 

(Like, I don't think any deity will know if someone has paid their tithes or not - certainly not automatically. There could be ways around this...)

[zifar]

As I recall divination could be used tro ask for the whereabouts of the initiate, the god may not know it if hadnt been worshipped recently but of course he will know if it is alive or not. I dont know if he could give details, maybe Humakt should know if it has died in regular combat or assanited.

But anyway, divination is played by omens, cast of lots, dreams and so on; this way the GM could be vague enough to not kill the fun and just give a cue (if warranted).

The spirit of the dead, ghosts or ancestors, are more problematic becuae they can also encountered as npc, can posses (benign or not) peopel, etc and they need to have coherent "state of mind" which could not be different when questioned.

We were talking about a murder mistery but there are more ways to use them to undermine the game, for example players want to search the lost sword of Foo, just look for Ty Kora Tek priestress and summon the spirit of Foo (summon ghost spell) and the "sword" is not more lost. Yes, this is almost the same silly scene that we found in  the last D&D movie.

Also this present a problem of world building and credibility, if you can ask ancestors/ghosts you can have a witness of any period of history!. Just imagine. Maybe instead of "Ancient secrets of Glorantha" we get "Old memoirs of Glorantha"

Of course we can think that the summoned ghost or ancestor lost their memories in the land of the dead, but this cannot be total or just it couldnt be indivdual ancestors; also probably the questuoners would probably ask them for the more sallient things.

 

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Ghosts are not likely to make more sense than speaking with elderly relatives who remember certain things from their youth but not a lot from yesterday.

Yes, the old-man talk can work in some issues but most of the things asked (aside of this own dead that should be remembered even in a traumatic way) would be about his prime days.

[David Scott]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:22 PM, zifar said:

I have a gaming related issue with spells likes summon ancestor and summon ghost.

The problem is: What king of conversations could you have with them? What kind of questions they can answer?.

I see that this can wreck totally some games, for example a scenario where someone was killed: why not just summon his ghost and ask him who is the assassin or any detail about any mystery that concern the players?. This destroys the tension of a lot of scenarios and makes any scenario based in a murder scenario unfunny.

Summon Ancestor is restricted to initiates of Daka Fal, it summons a random ancestor who may be hostile. Summon Specific Ancestor must be stacked with Summon ancestor (for a total of 2RPs). If you want information, you need to stack Summon Spirit Teacher with the previous two spells (for 4RPs).

Summon Ghost is a bit more complex, and if hostile, you'll need a control spell too. Summon Ghost is only available as a Rune spell to Jakaleel the Witch initiates or via Summon (entity) specifically ghosts and is only taught by shamans.

If the adventurers don't now the spells, they are going to be negotiating and paying a shaman to do the work for them. 

On 9/12/2024 at 3:22 PM, zifar said:

Yes, some of this issues can happen with the resurrect spell but it is more expensive, limited (7 days, body usable) and the caster can fail to force the spirit to return.

Likewise this is only available to Chalana Arroy initiates or Aldrya dryads in a reusable form. They still need to succeed in spirit combat, and at 3RPs is a bit cheaper.

On 9/12/2024 at 3:22 PM, zifar said:

Also i have a problem with worl-building and  credibility with this two spells. A lot of the mysteries of the world would banish if you can contact ghosts or ancestors and interrogate them. Yes, some will lie or give one-side versions but anyway..

Given the rarity of the individuals and the cost of the spells, this kind of detective work would be rare in my games, and restricted to only important needs. Adventurers still need to convince the individuals to tell them what they need to know, so in my games this falls into roleplaying (See Alberta in US Ghosts, it's an ongoing mystery as to who killed her and she doesn't know).

On 9/12/2024 at 3:22 PM, zifar said:

I think that some of you would say that after death the ghost or the ancestor will not speak straight but how i play that? where i draw the line?

Ancestors and ghosts can tell only what they remember. You could use their INTx5 vs an appropriate adventurers skill, keeping your roll hidden.

[zifar]

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ummon Ancestor is restricted to initiates of Daka Fal, it summons a random ancestor who may be hostile. Summon Specific Ancestor must be stacked with Summon ancestor (for a total of 2RPs). If you want information, you need to stack Summon Spirit Teacher with the previous two spells (for 4RPs).

Summon Ghost is a bit more complex, and if hostile, you'll need a control spell too. Summon Ghost is only available as a Rune spell to Jakaleel the Witch initiates or via Summon (entity) specifically ghosts and is only taught by shamans.

It seems illogical to me that if you summon a friendly ancestor, you can ask him to cast spells or engage in spirit combat but not talk with him. IMO summon spirit teacher is not need for that only if you need it to learn spelsl or act as shaman fethc. (i know that 'ask information' is in the description but i see it as redundancy).

And Summon Ghost is available via Ty Kora Tek, along command ghost, so in places when Ernalda is honored you will find also a few cultists of TKT.

 

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Given the rarity of the individuals and the cost of the spells, this kind of detective work would be rare in my games, and restricted to only important needs. Adventurers still need to convince the individuals to tell them what they need to know, so in my games this falls into roleplaying (See Alberta in US Ghosts, it's an ongoing mystery as to who killed her and she doesn't know).

Also if we follow the guidelines from the Equipments book casting summon hosts or summon ancestor + specfic ancestor will be worth around 40L, if you need to throw a command spell on the mix, around 80L. It is expensive but possible to pay. And take in account that a ransom of  a commoner is like 500L totally justifiable even just to know who has to pay the weregeld.

You can salways ay that the cultists/shaman/whatever had more important things to do, but if you only do in this caes and no others (divination spell, healing spells, etc) you players may feel that is acheap excuse. Moreover this only works if the PJs are freebooters or they want to ask questions only importants of them, if there is something of importance for the clan/tribe/city etc - and imo a unresolved killing in a clan would be - it is to expected to be available. Specially if the patrons of the PJs are the rulers of persons of importance.

 

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(See Alberta in US Ghosts, it's an ongoing mystery as to who killed her and she doesn't know).

In some scenarios this would be a perfect solution that enhances the game; after doing the rituals of taling with the dead the tkt cultist give the players the clue that the killed didint see his killer or even didnt knew him.

However this is not appliable in all scenarios and I would like to have a reason to only give one, two or none clues which willl be coherent with the behaviour of ghost/ancestors in other situations. The  murder investigation is the more obvious situation of that getting information for the dead spoils the game but you can think others.

 

Edited September 15 by zifar

[zifar]

Just a note, i remembered that in a lot of gloranthan religions the deads linger a time in the otherworld and then reborn. So this could be used against summoning people who died long ago, This seems to  a bit some ancestors cults which seems that the dead individual persists for lot o generations, maybe those are the ones that not have choosen to reborn yet?.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, zifar said:

And Summon Ghost is available via Ty Kora Tek,

Summon Dead is a more restrictive version of Summon Specific Ancestor (restrictive in that they need to be in Ty Kora Teks Hell). 

2 hours ago, zifar said:

along command ghost, 

That's the most useful one as you can command them to speak to you. As well as Ty Kora Tek Initiates, it's available to Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Jakaleel, Yara Aranis, and Zoran Zoran initiates. 

[Ormi Phengaria]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:37 AM, zifar said:

It seems illogical to me that if you summon a friendly ancestor, you can ask him to cast spells or engage in spirit combat but not talk with him. IMO summon spirit teacher is not need for that only if you need it to learn spelsl or act as shaman fethc. (i know that 'ask information' is in the description but i see it as redundancy).

And Summon Ghost is available via Ty Kora Tek, along command ghost, so in places when Ernalda is honored you will find also a few cultists of TKT.

If you have access to the services of Jakaleel or Ty Kora Tek you can very much do this if the dead individual in question resides in the Fourth Hell or the Caverns of the Dead, respectively. This is probably not an uncommon occurrence! However, those places are just where you expect the dead to come to their final rest and residence; it isn't necessarily where they will be when the spell is cast. The less someone's demise resembles a normal passing of a normal initiate for normal reasons given normal funeral rites, the less likely they are to be in those places while anyone still cares about investigating their death. See The Seven Hells, p. 35, and Death and the Soul, p. 45, in Mythology.

Additionally, Summon Specific Ancestor is probably not going to be available upon their death. It requires cult to be given to that ancestor, which provides the spell. The shaman-priests are not giving cult to every specific dead mortal relative of the cult in this way, but to those who can generally serve the cult's interests and guide and protect their mortal descendants. One would have to be quite prepared for death in life to be readily summonable to identify your murderer, but it's possible. Some cult is given to the ancestors in general, but the main opportunity for meeting dead loved ones is the Axis Mundi, though that likely follows the same restrictions as the above rune spells.

Edited September 17 by Ormi Phengaria

[davecake]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:00 PM, David Scott said:

Summon Ancestor is restricted to initiates of Daka Fal, it summons a random ancestor who may be hostile. Summon Specific Ancestor must be stacked with Summon ancestor (for a total of 2RPs). If you want information, you need to stack Summon Spirit Teacher with the previous two spells (for 4RPs).

I don't think Summon Spirit Teacher is required just to ask questions that the spirit knows the answer to and is willing to communicate - you just need to be able to speak its language (or Spiritspeech, which a Daka Fal shaman will). But you definitely need Summon Specific Answer. The Summon Spirit Teacher spell may allow more direct information, as it allows a more direct mind to mind conduit that can transfer knowledge of spells, which cannot be done verbally. 

On 9/16/2024 at 12:39 AM, David Scott said:

Summon Dead is a more restrictive version of Summon Specific Ancestor (restrictive in that they need to be in Ty Kora Teks Hell). 

Summon Dead (TKK) and Summon Ghost (Jakaleel) are effectively the same spell, though one is said to be Temporal and the Other a Summon Ritual (I don't know why or if this is significant). The Fourth Hell is a Lunar name for the halls of Ty Kora Tek (the Lunars call TKK by the name Annara Gor), and both are the same place, essentially, as the Land of the Dead ruled over by Daka Fall (but not the same as the deeper afterlife that the dead can pass on to after being judged at the Courts of Silence by Daka Fal), the description of the Fourth Hell in the Mythology book pg 35 makes this explicit. Both are much less restrictive than Summon Specific Ancestor, as they don't require you to be a descendant of the dead person summoned. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:39 PM, davecake said:

But you definitely need Summon Specific Answer.

Nice slip 😛

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:15 PM, zifar said:

We were talking about a murder mistery but there are more ways to use them to undermine the game, for example players want to search the lost sword of Foo, just look for Ty Kora Tek priestress and summon the spirit of Foo (summon ghost spell) and the "sword" is not more lost. Yes, this is almost the same silly scene that we found in  the last D&D movie.

Even if you do get a coherent response, why would said sword actually be where said ghost last left it??

[Geoff R Evil]

I ran a hero quest in which the party entered a long lost dungeon defended by ghosts that manifested to defend it.

The Babeestor Gor used command ghost on their leader and ended up skipping an entire dungeon I had created, and got straight to the item they were looking for….after some major obstacles still though.

However, there was information and items in the dungeon they would need later. This caused them great distress thinking they had to return to the dungeon once they realised, although they did find another way eventually, it cost them time and money.

My point is, any scenario can be improvised to allow for the unexpected, and tbh the command ghost was a brilliant use, especially when the player was a first time RQGer and they criticalled their orate. So to me that was great game play, not a problem at all. Just decide to adjust consequences….

[soltakss]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:16 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

The Babeestor Gor used command ghost on their leader and ended up skipping an entire dungeon I had created, and got straight to the item they were looking for….after some major obstacles still though.

As a GM, I would be entirely happy with that.