What exactly was the problem with the Dragonrise?

[That_Old-Hammer]

This might make me seem like a kinda heartless bastard but I've never really understood the issue with the Dragonrise. A single strike that wipes out the high command of an oppressive imperial power as well as much of their military power in the region. Sounds good! (At least from the Sartarite perspective).

I see a lot of times in sourcebooks and well of daliath posts however that the reaction to this was more often than not Horror. Not fear which would obviously make sense, but Horror. Apparently even Kallyr who set the whole thing off got kinda spooked by it. I would understand surprise, this probably wasn't the plan, but if I were a commander hoping to put a stop to the consecration of the new temple, surely this is a pretty good outcome isn't it?

I suppose the main trouble I have is figuring out the rebel Sartarite point of view that doesn't see this as a good thing. If you're a sympathiser with the Lunars, I get it, but Kallyr? I don't quite remember where but I recall reading that Leika was also horrified. And those two are some of the most hard core Lunar haters in Dragon Pass.

The new Reaching Moon temple was, in my opinion at least, a very valid military target. If it was a civilian population I would understand the reaction a lot better but when I read the section on the Dragonrise in the Glorantha Sourcebook it seems like four bites the Brown dragon took were mostly Lunar soldiers and buildings aswell as "a smaller part of the panicked mob".

Is it the loss of life? Sure this was bad but surely the Lunar college of magic wasting large swathes of soldiers on the battlefield would be a little comparable and these are Lunar lives aren't they? They enslaved the Dundealos and murdered the Royal Family! They killed Orlanth! The Great winter wasn't that long ago, in the corebook there is a 55% chance that one of your parents died as a result, if they were in Sartar! I can't imagine most people felt very supportive of the Lunar regime at the time.

Is it the fact that it was done by a single monstrously powerful creature? Kallyr was at Whitewall when the Crimson Bat came calling wasn't she? You'd think she'd be hardened to the idea of what is essentially a kaiju eating a bunch of people.

Is it the fear of reprisal?

Is it the fact that the Brown Dragon now just lives in Sartar and no one knows if it's going to wake up again? if you live nearby you can probably hear the thing snoring and that would keep anyone awake at night.

Obviously, absolute dread makes sense from a Lunar perspective, this is probably equivalent to a US military base getting nuked but if you're a Sartarite shouldn't you be out in the street dancing?

Why aren't they?

Edited Friday at 01:08 PM by That_Old-Hammer

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

This might make me seem like a kinda heartless bastard but I've never really understood the issue with the Dragonrise.

500 years before the dragons rose and wiped out all humans in Dragon Pass. Didn't matter who they were, they were eaten, incinerated, and destroyed. 
It took 200 years before humans ventured again into the pass with a very strong hope that the dragons had gone to sleep and would not destroy them again.
All seemed good. And then the Dragonrise occurs. The dragon devours everything in the place where it rises (Lunar temple, Lunar army, and anyone else who was in the area - including Sartarite slaves of the Lunars). Then it flies off north (5 miles long) for a great circuit until it returns to its resting place. But it is clearly awake and NO ONE knows what it may do next. (Is it angry at being awakened? Thinking of food?...)

It's not like a nuclear bomb that goes off and is done. It can rise again, and next time it may eat Boldhome or Clearwine.

[That_Old-Hammer]

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

500 years before the dragons rose and wiped out all humans in Dragon Pass. Didn't matter who they were, they were eaten, incinerated, and destroyed. 
It took 200 years before humans ventured again into the pass with a very strong hope that the dragons had gone to sleep and would not destroy them again.
All seemed good. And then the Dragonrise occurs. The dragon devours everything in the place where it rises (Lunar temple, Lunar army, and anyone else who was in the area - including Sartarite slaves of the Lunars). Then it flies off north (5 miles long) for a great circuit until it returns to its resting place. But it is clearly awake and NO ONE knows what it may do next. (Is it angry at being awakened? Thinking of food?...)

It's not like a nuclear bomb that goes off and is done. It can rise again, and next time it may eat Boldhome or Clearwine.

Wow. You're totally right, can't believe I blanked on the Dragonkill. Thanks for the quick response!

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

Wow. You're totally right, can't believe I blanked on the Dragonkill. Thanks for the quick response!

Everyone knows that the dragonewts are totally bizarre and unpredictable - but they are very minor versions of the True Dragons. 

The True Dragons are obviously immense - the Brown Dragon at 5 miles(!) long and can devour an entire temple in a single bite is terrifying. And it didn't even use its fire breath (or equivalent) to do what it did. It opened up a vast crevasse where it rose and later resettled. But if you project unpredictably from the lesser dragonewts to the True Dragons (and remember the tales of everything they destroyed), then you don't want anything to do with them (and hope they go back to sleep.

In my Imther game, the True Dragon flew overhead on its way to the Lunar Empire (before being turned back). It looked like a great storm line approaching with a massive thundercloud above and around its head from which lightnings constantly spewed. Its thunderous rage was loud enough to shake buildings and knock people down in the cities over which it passed. 

[AlHazred]

I mean, the Dragon had just devoured the Red Bat. And THAT thing actually projected horror! It's like if the cultists summon Cthulhu and then the "good guys" summon SOMETHING THAT ARRIVES AND EATS CTHULHU...

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, AlHazred said:

I mean, the Dragon had just devoured the Red Bat. And THAT thing actually projected horror! It's like if the cultists summon Cthulhu and then the "good guys" summon SOMETHING THAT ARRIVES AND EATS CTHULHU...

Where did you get that from?

The interaction between the Crimson Bat lifting off Runegate towards Boldhome being intercepted by a dragon happened in 1602, during the conquest of Sartar by the Lunars, directly led by their Red Emperor. Subsequently, dragonewts "hired at inhuman cost" aided the Lunars to overcome the defenders of Boldhome.

The Bat re-appeared in Sartar in late 1619 on its way to Whitewall, where no draconic intervention was observed. It has not returned to the region since it was repelled and lost to the Empire then.

This wasn't exactly a game of Summon Bigger Fish. The plan was to make the Lunars fumble their rite, possibly imploding the temple site or whatever. Awakening a dragon might have been a secret agenda of Orlaront and maybe Minaryth Purple.

[AlHazred]

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Where did you get that from?

The interaction between the Crimson Bat lifting off Runegate towards Boldhome being intercepted by a dragon happened in 1602, during the conquest of Sartar by the Lunars, directly led by their Red Emperor. Subsequently, dragonewts "hired at inhuman cost" aided the Lunars to overcome the defenders of Boldhome.

The Bat re-appeared in Sartar in late 1619 on its way to Whitewall, where no draconic intervention was observed. It has not returned to the region since it was repelled and lost to the Empire then.

This wasn't exactly a game of Summon Bigger Fish. The plan was to make the Lunars fumble their rite, possibly imploding the temple site or whatever. Awakening a dragon might have been a secret agenda of Orlaront and maybe Minaryth Purple.

Yeah, my memory is shot. I'd conflated the events, but you're absolutely right, they're unrelated. 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, AlHazred said:

... I'd conflated the events, but you're absolutely right, they're unrelated. 

Except:  Dragons.
We really don't know if they were related at all; maybe from the Draconic POV they were very tightly linked indeed.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Except:  Dragons.
We really don't know if they were related at all; maybe from the Draconic POV they were very tightly linked indeed.

Quite likely, but we were discussing the panicked reaction of humanity (including the Sartarites who benefitted from the erasure of the Lunar temple).

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

This wasn't exactly a game of Summon Bigger Fish. The plan was to make the Lunars fumble their rite, possibly imploding the temple site or whatever. Awakening a dragon might have been a secret agenda of Orlaront and maybe Minaryth Purple.

I personally prefer it the way it’s depicted in Sartar Rising, in the Boatraising quest. At the barest minimum, Kallyr knows the Draconic forces she’s playing a dangerous game with. She went to talk to a cosmic dragon about it, after all!

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally prefer it the way it’s depicted in Sartar Rising, in the Boatraising quest. At the barest minimum, Kallyr knows the Draconic forces she’s playing a dangerous game with. She went to talk to a cosmic dragon about it, after all!

And I bet she used Orlaront as her interpreter. Who might have received a different agenda than he communicated to Kallyr, or at least that's what she is fearing now the 5 mile dragon has risen.