Why is BRP not that popular?

[Enpeze]

We know that BRP is the best rule set out there. I was always wondering why it has not the popularity it would deserve. What do you think: why is this so?

I think the most important reason is that alot of BRP material is OOP and only CoC and SB (as PDF) is remaining. Maybe the knowledgeable participants at this forum are able to come up with other reasons which explain the lack of popularity of BRP?

[Trifletraxor]

1) Ignorance. Most people just don't now about this system. :cool:

2) The masses are fools. Most people tend to do what everybody else does, and "everybody" is playing D&D.

3) A horrible lack of support. This was the second most popular RPG at some point. And they blew it all away with the horrible lack of support they gave RuneQuest. Most brp fans blame Greg. I know I do! :mad:

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

So far Chaosium have focused BRP on Call of Cthulhu, and while CoC is a good game, it does not have a very broad appeal to the market. Hopefully this will correct itself with the new generic system!

Sverre.

[Charles Green]

3) A horrible lack of support. This was the second most popular RPG at some point. And they blew it all away with the horrible lack of support they gave RuneQuest. Most brp fans blame Greg. I know I do! :mad:SGL.

This is it, right here. If Chaosium had played their cards right, it was possible at one point to have had RuneQuest be the RPG instead of D&D.

[Enpeze]

This is it, right here. If Chaosium had played their cards right, it was possible at one point to have had RuneQuest be the RPG instead of D&D.

I am not sure if I can agree with this. I think BRP is suited for a gritty, realistic and unheroic gaming style but many gamers prefer the opposite. I mean they like to kill their enemies but not to be killed by them. They like to find their sword+4 vs. giant rats and they like to get 100 XP for every giant rat they are able to kill with it. They prefer cheesy "game in game" mechanics suited for powergaming to realistic action like BRP offers.

So IMO many of the D&D fans them would never change to BRP even if Chaosium had played their cards right.

(But I think what we both can agree upon is that BRP would have a much higher popularity if they did. I guess it would be under the top 5 rule systems.)

[badcat]

Lack of support is a big part of it. And many people do want a game where they can slay rats with +4 swords.

But there is more to it. A couple of points...

Part of the problem isn't what Chaosium didn't do as much as what Chaosium isn't as good at doing. Marketing. A big part of the problem is simply that the Chaosium guys were never as good at getting the word about their game out there and letting people know about it as the TSR or WOTC guys have proven to be.

Also, you can use BRP to create the kind of slay-and-loot games that our +4 sword owners crave...there are a variety of official and houserules that allow the creation of nearly invulnerable PCs. Think about it, Enpeze. In Stormbringer 1-3 you could summon a Demon of Protection with 75 armor points. Thats even better than 75 hit points, because you have to hit with 75 points or better to even hurt the wearer!:eek: And there are other ways. I ran a D&D style game more than once using a pastiche of Magic World and Stormbringer, and it was hack, slay, and loot, just like D&D but with the more playable BRP percentile system. I got my wife into rpgs that way, and she wouldn't even try D&D. Took one look at the mechanics and backed right out, then took to the BRP style 'D&D' like a duck to water.

It is mostly the lack of support and lack (or neglect) of marketing skill. As Charles Green noted, around 1981 if Chaosium had played their cards right WoW could have been expanded and become the first 'universal' rpg instead of GURPS...and replaced AD&D as the base line rpg with a more playable, coherent, and understandable game system.

It also occurs to me that if certain people, like Dave Hargrave, had latched on to RQ or Stormbringer as their original system, the creativity they brought to the hobby could have boosted BRP style systems instead of class and level ones. All these things contributed.

[Joseph Paul]

Enpeze- There are several reasons that BRP failed to gain popularity.

Read Shannon Appelcline's history of Chaosium on RPGnet.

They did some things that were not so great including failing to convert Runequest II into a universal system soon enough and supporting it.

Also TSR/WotC has been the big boy on the block for quite some time. It has controlled 40-50 percent of the gaming market for years. Those products are very likely to be what a person new to gaming is exposed to and, as Trifletraxor points out, that oftens sets peoples' expectations of games. BRP has no levels-What? It has no character classes-What!? All skills and magic are available to any character-WHAT! Heresy! It doesn't matter that the rules make better sense and model things better- they are different from what the person knows.

D&D also serves as a gamer right of passage. Nearly every gamer has played some D&D in their time. Often there are fond memories of particular modules which serve as a basis for bonding and comradeship between gamers or at least as material for boasting about how fast the party took down the evil XXX ...or how fast the party was eliminated by same!

BRP currently lacks such material.

Currently the universal system niche is being filled by GURPS and HERO and every other game that a GM prefers to use for a setting because it games well and not neccessarily because it models things well.

Other games that have done well seem to do so because they are structured around a compelling story/background. Vampire for instance, Exalted, Ars Majica. Glorantha derives a lot of its market share from people that are hooked on Stafford's world. They will jump systems in order to continue to get it. See the people buying from Mongoose? It willbe interesting to compare sales of MRQ rules to sales of MRQ Gloranthan supplements.

GURPS and HERO both have worked hard to bring material out that would allow the buyer to model particular genres. GURPS went further and produced books that allowed buyers to participate in adventures set in their favorite literary or media work. That seems to be just as important as producing a good set of rules.

Chaosium was doing the same thing with Elfquest, Stormbringer, CoC, and Ringworld. Then things blew up and they lost Ringworld, Glorantha, Pendragon, and stopped supporting ElfQuest and Nephilhim. They were left with CoC and Stormbringer and too small a staff to work out other things. It would be a big gamble to produce things that did not support the core products so Chaosium became Cthulhu Central with a dash of Elric thrown in.

BRP currently lacks such material.

Advertising- Roleplaying has gone mainstream and the big companys are advertising and can get their games in chain stores. Chaosium probably cannot afford to do so.

I think that a better question is what can we do to help popularize BRP?

I have an 6 point plan:

1) Buy it.

2) Play it.

3) Run it at conventions.

4) Talk about it on forums.

5) If there is a weakness in the rules produce fan material to patch it. You might be the next "Perrin Conventions" dude. Or Dudette.

6) Produce material useable with BRP.

Joseph Paul

[badcat]

You certainly have a point about MRQ and Glorantha. Last yearwhen I was keeping up with the Mongoose forums, just before they published either one, by far the most criticism and resistance was leveled at MRQ itself and the most excitement and acceptance was directed at Second Age Glorantha. Remember that, Enpeze?

[Joseph Paul]

Badcat- Has anyone started posting conversion info for Second Age stuff back into RQII/III? That would be a telling commentary on fans' preferences for the original systems.

Joseph Paul

[badcat]

I honestly don't know. I think there was some pretty immediate conversion to HeroQuest, but I don't frequent the Mongoose forum any more, so I couldn't say what sort of activities have been going on lately. A number of the guys over there were definitely not happy with many of the rules changes in MRQ, less so than me. And there were quite a few old RQ fans posting, so probably. Some of them have shown up at this forum, but of that lot only me and Enpeze have posted much here so far. Assuming Rurik is still around he could probably answer your question accurately. If I liked Glorantha I would be likely to convert it, or at least houserule much of the MRQ material away...it is quite similar, and does appear to be doing fairly well in spite of the business model (oodles of thin and not cheap hardcover rulebooks). Why don't you go over to the Mongoose forum and check it out?

[Atgxtg]

Reasons why BRP isn't that popular (IMO):

1)Obscurity.

With the exception of CoC the system hasn't been available, or seen much by most gamers. CoC is a game where the mechanics of BRP are sort of downplayed (most the monsters are bullet resistant). So just to be aware or BRP probably means that you've been gaming for 15 years or so.

2) Glorantha.

Like it or not, it was the major obstacle to getting other gamers into RQ2. The world was just so different from the other fantasy settings (LOTR rip offs) were like that most players just didn't get it.

3) The Avalon Hill Deal

Part two of the "one-two combination" that took RQ out of contention for AD&D's throne. Wheel Glorantha kept the general gaming populace away from RQ, the AH deal alienated a lot of Chaosium fans. Some over the rule changes, and a lot more over the lack of new material. It was if someone had dammed up the creative stream. We went from getting 3 or 4 new RQ products a year to no new Glorantha products for, what, 5 years?

4) Stagnation

RQ/BRP was a very innovative system when first introduced. IT introduced, or improved upon many new concepts, such as active defense, armor absorption, and skill based as opposed to class/level based. All good stuff in 1978. SO good that the basic system was used for a host of other RPGs. That was 30 years ago. Nothing has evolved in the RQ/BRP rules since RQ3. A shame, since the system was one that used to have constant and contimual innovation. Sometimes BPR shows it age when compared to more recent RPGs. For instance, since RQ/BRP grew out of SCA experience, the game never developed "non-lethal" damage.

5) No much support

A lot of GMs like to buy and run prewritten adventures. If there are no adventures, then they don't run that game. This sort goes with the scene after the Avalon Hill Deal. prior to that, the game got great support. I love those old boxed set campaign packs. Once the AH deal went through, not only did the Campaign Packs stop, but even Chasoim stopped using that approach on thier own games. An adventure every two or three years doesn't cut it. If you play any Chasoium RPG other than CoC you don't have much in the way of prewritten stuff.

6) Perssonel changes.

Back when Chasoium was in it'S heyday, and RQ/BRP products were coming out steadily, the material was mostly written by the same group of people. The same names pop up over and over again on the credits of various products. Now, very few of those people still work for Chaosium. Nothing against the new crew, but the orginal writers are a tough act to follow.

7) Call of Cthulhu

CoC was one of the first horror RPGs, and the most successful. So successful that Chaosium seemed to focus all their efforts on it to the exclusion of practically everything else. I think that Chasoium has published more stuff for CoC that for all their other game systems combined. But, CoC is rather interdependent of the system (stats don't matter much when the PCs are usually the weakest thing in the scenario). And, players who are not interested in horror role-playing and or H.P. Lovecraft will just pass the game by, and that is what the majoirty of gamers are doing.

8) We lost that lovin' feelin'

Back in the late 70s/early 80s, the RPG community was different. Game designers were players, and were more interested in exhanging ideas with each other, impressing other players and actually improving a game. Now, the gaming hobby has turned into a RPG industry, and become a bit more impersonal. Back in the early days it was more about ideas and fun. Now it is about product and profit. As a result, companies that can throw around more $$$ get better market share. Even back when RQ was popular it wasn't in the stores the way D&D was.

9) CCGs

These things pretty much wiped out all the small to mdedium sized RPG companies, including AH, and did a number on other companies, such as Chasoium. That7s a major reason why BRP has been in RPG limbo for over a decade.

Just my take on the subject.

[badcat]

You're heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeee.

This is once-andakitty. Welcome, even if I can't agree with some of that...

[Atgxtg]

You're heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeee.

This is once-andakitty. Welcome, even if I can't agree with some of that...

But do you agree with ANY of it?

I did say IMO. I think most BRPers would agree in part to most of it, just differ over what the percentages. I think most RQ2 fans would rate the AH deal as #1 reason.

With people like you, Triffle, and Enpeze hanging around, this site feels strangely familiar.

[badcat]

Actually I agree with most of it, but I'll keep you guessing as to what I don't.

[Enpeze]

You certainly have a point about MRQ and Glorantha. Last yearwhen I was keeping up with the Mongoose forums, just before they published either one, by far the most criticism and resistance was leveled at MRQ itself and the most excitement and acceptance was directed at Second Age Glorantha. Remember that, Enpeze?

Yes. I remember. Nonetheless I think that BRP (while beeing the best rule set out there) had never the chance to become number one (not even number 3 or so) among rpgs. IMO it lacks some fundamental mechanics most players seem to enjoy. (you know levels, instant gratifications and massive hitpoints) Its not just a matter of support. Its also very human that most like to think of themselves as miniature versions of 10th level hero Bruce Willis mowing down bad 1st level goons. D&D support such vision. BRP not really. (at least not in any game I took part)

So the core features of BRP (like we defined them already in another thread) are catering just the needs of a part of roleplayers but not the vast majority.

But what I agree is that BRP could have a considerable larger market share if Chaosium had shown a better economic skill in the past.

Whatever. They are able to show it this year. (not that I am very optimistic about the future market share of BRP, but they are excellent in designing games, so I think I will love the new book)

[Enpeze]

But do you agree with ANY of it?

I did say IMO. I think most BRPers would agree in part to most of it, just differ over what the percentages. I think most RQ2 fans would rate the AH deal as #1 reason.

With people like you, Triffle, and Enpeze hanging around, this site feels strangely familiar.

Welcome on board.

I would agree on the most things about BRP history you wrote. But its only part of the real reason for me. Another (and maybe bigger part) of reason is that D&D with its way to handle rpgs is better suited for the needs of the masses of roleplayers. (see above) So BRP could have a better position than today, but it would not have the ability to be number one in popularity instead of D&D. (maybe among the top 5)

[Enpeze]

Also, you can use BRP to create the kind of slay-and-loot games that our +4 sword owners crave...there are a variety of official and houserules that allow the creation of nearly invulnerable PCs.

I agree that this might be possible with sufficient tweaking and house ruling. But for what price? Is it BRP anymore or is it something else after such a transformation?

Think about it, Enpeze. In Stormbringer 1-3 you could summon a Demon of Protection with 75 armor points. Thats even better than 75 hit points, because you have to hit with 75 points or better to even hurt the wearer!:eek:

This is right. But not everyone had such an armor. (I remember just one player in my group in the entire campaign had demon armor) And its just a rare, expensive magical gadget. He doesnt wear it during sleep, sex etc. (at least I hope so:D). Its not a substitution for a rule system which allows that everybody has alot of HP.

And there are other ways. I ran a D&D style game more than once using a pastiche of Magic World and Stormbringer, and it was hack, slay, and loot, just like D&D but with the more playable BRP percentile system. I got my wife into rpgs that way, and she wouldn't even try D&D. Took one look at the mechanics and backed right out, then took to the BRP style 'D&D' like a duck to water.

It is mostly the lack of support and lack (or neglect) of marketing skill. As Charles Green noted, around 1981 if Chaosium had played their cards right WoW could have been expanded and become the first 'universal' rpg instead of GURPS...and replaced AD&D as the base line rpg with a more playable, coherent, and understandable game system.

It also occurs to me that if certain people, like Dave Hargrave, had latched on to RQ or Stormbringer as their original system, the creativity they brought to the hobby could have boosted BRP style systems instead of class and level ones. All these things contributed.

In the end, we will not know, what it was. (we seem to have some slightly deviating opinions about this sujet) At least BRP seem to get a second chance to become more popular the next years.

[badcat]

True enough. I remember when I 'found' RQ2 in 1981, it was like lights coming on. I was in an AD&D group, and immediately wanted to jump to the new game. Some of the group split and we started playing the Big Rubble, Sun Country, Griffon Mountain, etc.; some stayed with the AD&D. My point here is that our group split almost exactly 50/50. And all that happened was that we looked at RQ2...and another local group was starting CoC about that time. So I sometimes wonder what might have happened if Chaosium had been more aggressive. I know some inside things occurred to help derail the company somewhat too, but I really think the potential was there for it to have become the spearhead rpg around that period.

[Atgxtg]

Enpeze,

I see your point about D&D being the gaming fro the masses. I do not entirely agree with it though. Over the years, most of my gaming groups have been comprised of "reformed" D&Ders.

While a good percentage of thsoe player never "got" systems like RQ/BRP, others did. Quite a few players did get into things once they started to realize the differences and what sort of new options that were available.

So I think is isn't so much, "what the masses want", but "what the masses have been taught to expect". IMO similar to the situation with AOL.

[Guest Sverre]

BRP gets converts from D&D, I don't think D&D gets many converts from BRP. And that says a lot. I truly belive BRP could be the game for the masses, just like D&D is now. It all depends on support, availability and marketing. But, as we can't expect Chaosium to do much on the marketing bit, I guess the fanbase have to do that. I usually buy all my rpg-stuff online (cheaper & faster) but the new BRP stuff I will get from my local store, have them order it so they take it in - so it's more visible and hopefully more people will try it. I thinking of gaming on a rpg convention here too, to spread the word. :cool:

Triff.

[Simlasa]

I agree that relentless marketing would probably drive up the number of BRP players... I mean, that's really the strength of companies like TSR and Games Workshop... having flashy product design and lots and lots of in-your-face ad copy everywhere... sometimes to the point that the product is an ad (like with GW's White Dwarf magazine). I don't think the strength of either of those companies has been their rules design nearly as much as it has been the constant barrage of support and good fluff/artwork (primary to selling, secondary to playing).

I also think, though, that deep down BRP is a slightly more rarefied taste. It's not, at it's core, based on the same cinematic ideals as D&D and a lot of other 'new' games... it doesn't pull it's punches and is more 'simulationist' than the current trends seem to favor. I think 'simulation' was more of a flavor-of-the-month a decade or more ago (would anyone try to put out Phoenix Command these days?).

I mean, especially for people in the U.S., the entertainment we get is fantasy versions of real life... where all problems are solved by the final reel and the hero almost never dies. It's built into our culture to want that kind of mythic superhero who the bullets always seem to miss but who never misses his target.

The popularity of video games and MMPORPGs just reinforces that sort of thing... you'll die, but only for a moment. It's been a long time since I played any video games that ended with GAME OVER flashing on the screen.

Gritty, deadly games are not so much the darling of gamers these days (if my reading of RPG.net is at all correct), so games like COC and RQ2 seem to increasingly rub players the wrong way.

Of course, BRP could be tweaked to play 'cinematic' but like was asked previously, would it still be BRP?

Personally, I want BRP to keep being rum-raisin to D&D's vanilla... I want my games to be gritty... I want character death to continue being the big stick that beats some sense into the player's choices... but then I'm not a huge fan of Hollywood blockbusters either.

I'll take less support if it's better support... sure the shelves are full of D20 books, but how many of those are worth reading?

I guess I'm saying that a lot of the reasons BRP is not the top dog are also closely tied to why I like it so much. It's a work of quality vs. just being 'product'. I hope Chaosium promotes the new book for all they're worth... I hope it's got good art to pull people in... I hope there are supplements and world books to follow... but I want them to be well made/thought out... and not try to compete with something they fundamentally (and thankfully) are not.

[badcat]

I mostly agree with you.

About gamers wanting larger-than-life heroes who are safe from the woes of 'simulation', though...do you remember Dark Conspiracy? It was a game of 'horror' which sort of went out of its way to not kill the PCs, versus CoC which we all know about. It tanked, CoC still thrives. That's kind of an exception to the above, don't you think? Anyway, the whole thing is complex and multi-faceted. Most everything everyone has mentioned here no doubt had some impact on BRPs' relative obscurity. How much of each factor is very open to debate. Debate on, everyone.

It's fun.

[Simlasa]

I think COC's strength is a fairly cohesive and colorful mythos... and the definitive flavor of the 20's and the pulp/jazz age (though it seems like modern settings are just as popular). I think it's been a good seller in SPITE of the spectre of near-certain character demise/insanity (though I don't think it has to be as common as a lot of folks seem to assume).

Maybe people mostly play it as one-offs... like Paranoia? Maybe they tweak it so the PCs can rape/loot/pillage the Old Ones into being just like orcs in D&D?

Dark Conspiracy looked great to me at first... but it never felt like it had that same cohesive feel. All these disparate urban-legends thrown together... seemingly without rhyme or reason (it's been a while so maybe I'm forgetting the reason... but that would suggest even if there was one it was forgettable).

I liked the attempts at 40's styling on some things... but that seemed like window dressing that didn't permeate the game and was easily overlooked.

A better example of that sort that got lots of good press was Unknown Armies. I'm not sure how popular it is but after reading it I felt like it was an attempt to make COC more cinematic and add some meta-gaming dice gimmicks. In ways UA is darker than COC while still letting the PCs be more 'heroic'...

Still, I don't see it arising to the levels of popularity COC has enjoyed... but then that would support your argument.

[badcat]

:DComplex, isn't it?

[Enpeze]

Well in Germany the phantastic CoC edition from Pegasus Press (which is even better than the Chaosium original) lured additional new players into the BRP trap, hehe. First they liked all the things Simlasa mentioned (Jazz, 20ties, Lovecraft...) and then they detected that there are games which also use their beloved CoC rules. Without CoC, BRP would not be known at all in Middle Europe. (except by some extreme nerds, like myself eg)