Random Damage Bonus versus Static Damage Bonus

[RosenMcStern]

Ah, the Giant-with-a-dagger paradox! Maybe just "damage bonus cannot exceed base weapon damage"? (Or twice base damage)?

But again, impact-based weapons benefit more from strength, so a general rule may be impossible to define. A realistic rule might become too complicate for most groups to adopt, as most players prefer KISS games.

[Dredj]

Ah, the Giant-with-a-dagger paradox! Maybe just "damage bonus cannot exceed base weapon damage"? (Or twice base damage)?

But again, impact-based weapons benefit more from strength, so a general rule may be impossible to define. A realistic rule might become too complicate for most groups to adopt, as most players prefer KISS games.

There's no paradox, the giant's hand is too big to use a dagger effectively. Unless he's going to jab you with it like a toothpick:D

[frogspawner]

Ah, the Giant-with-a-dagger paradox! Maybe just "damage bonus cannot exceed base weapon damage"? (Or twice base damage)?

Yes, exactly. It'd probably have to be some rule like that - but I was just hoping someone might know the perfect, elegant and, yes, Stupidly Simple solution.

There's no paradox, the giant's hand is too big to use a dagger effectively.

Sorry, but that's just the GM saying "it's silly". The paradox remains.

[peterb]

Ah, the Giant-with-a-dagger paradox! Maybe just "damage bonus cannot exceed base weapon damage"? (Or twice base damage)?

One way might be to rule that when a creature uses a weapon with a STR requirement less than one third of his own STR then the weapon only adds +1d6 extra damage to his damage bonus. If the creature STR is more than four times higher than the weapons STR requirement then the weapon adds a flat +2.

Example: a Giant with STR 45 that uses a Halberd (req. STR 13) does 6d6+1d6 damage. If the Giant used a dagger it would do 6d6+2. If the Giant uses a trollmaul, it could make use of the momentum of the weapon and do 3d6+6d6 in damage.

[Dredj]

Yes, exactly. It'd probably have to be some rule like that - but I was just hoping someone might know the perfect, elegant and, yes, Stupidly Simple solution.

Sorry, but that's just the GM saying "it's silly". The paradox remains.

I know, I was just trying to make a funny that didn't succeed.

Either way, if a person were to use a toothpick or a giant a dagger in the heat of battle, it would more resemble a punch than a stab--even though they would be stabbing with a toothpick/dagger. Therefore, the damage modifiers would remain in place.

[Rurik]

I don't know, a giant's toothpick sounds like it could be pretty dangerous to me.

[Dredj]

I don't know, a giant's toothpick sounds like it could be pretty dangerous to me.

That would be a dagger:D

[Rurik]

That would be a dagger:D

Wow, small giants out in your neck of the woods.

I was thinking long spear at least - maybe pike.

[Dredj]

Wow, small giants out in your neck of the woods.

I was thinking long spear at least - maybe pike.

Yeah, we got pygmy giants were I live:lol:

[frogspawner]

Giants pike-sized toothpicks, fair enough. They could do plenty of base damage.

But a less extreme example would perhaps be a troll with a knife (d3+1, +2d6 bonus or more). Is getting the full db reasonable?

[Al.]

Evening all

This topic has sort of spread from the original question so I'll chuck in my ideas for the questions raised

1. Firearms Damage esp. 2d6+4 for Lee Enfields

Like I sort of posted on the thread about Firearm damages I prefer a small tweak to the CoC system. This reduces the die code escalation which can happen in BRP. Retains the possibility of grazing hits and also allows me to quickly make up stats for any firearm on the fly.

Pistol

Damage = 1d (metric calibre rounded up)

AP=0

Carbine

Damage =2d (metric calibre rounded down)

AP = (metric calibre rounded down)

Rifle

Damage = 2d (metric calibre rounded up)

AP=(metric calibre rounded up)

Cannon

AP Damage and AP as Rifle

HE Damage = 1d (metric calibre rounded up) but adds + (metric calibre rounded up) to chance to hit

Examples

.22 Pistol 1d6 damage no AP

.38 Pistol 1d10 damage no AP

.22 Carbine 1d10 damage 5 AP

.38 Rifle 2d10 damage 10 AP

.5 Rifle 2d12 damage 12 AP (admittedly this one sort of breaks my rule-of-thumb as there is no d13)

30mm Cannon AP 2d30 damage 30AP

30mm Cannon HE 1d30 +30% Chance to hit

2. Limit of Damage Bonus

For magical augmentation I've ruled for years that you cannot boost weapon damage above twice base unaided (so Stormbringer does 2d8+2d8 not the current 2d8+every dice you have in your group's collection of dice)

Maybe you could do that for beasties with ridiculously small weapons (matron)

4. Granular Damage Bonus

Definitely a big fan of the Elric roll table style of more granular damage bonus

where =5 points Str+Siz adds =+d2

or to prevent unwieldiness for big beasties 15 points Str+Siz =+d6

To those who see an inherent contradiction. Yes there is one. But I am most interested in the differences at human scale.

5. Rubbish damage rolls with a good hit

This is flaw (some say feature but I say flaw) of BRP.

In Pendragon (not strictly BRP but bear with me) I changed damage to 'result of hit roll' + flat bonus. So rather than my Knight having 6d6 damage hitting with a roll of '18' and then rolling '6' on the damage dice he would do 18 (for the to hit roll) and 6 (for his damage stat).

I also halved Armour Points for Armour (but not Shields)

This makes it much deadlier between normal sized folk (as in Pendragon you hit if you roll under your skill AND your roll is higher than your foe's) so high numbers are more likely to be used for damage. But also paradoxically makes really BIG beasties less dangerous (as my Giant Fomori with 12d6 damage would previously do an average of 42 points and now does 12 + 'to hit' roll and maximum rollable drops right down from 72 to 32 points)

In BRP this is trickier but (untested) possibilities include:

Criticals add the result of the d100 'to hit' roll to damage done

Specials add the tens of the result of the d100 to hit roll

Multiply weapon maximum rollable damage by 'to hit' roll rather than roll damage

Not bother coz it doesn't come up that often anyway

6. Differentiating Weapons

Elric does indeed have a rule of thumb of

Spear +1

Sword +1

Axe, Mace +2

One could (and I have but not completely Satisfactorily) extend this to

Spear/Arrow/Quarrel bigger die +0

Sword bigger die +1

Axe smaller die +2

Heavy Blunt things smaller die +3

So

Shortspear 1d10

Bastard Sword 1d10+1

Battle Axe 1d8+2

Heavy Mace 1d8+3

I prefer to differentiate them by how they behave on a Special or Critical

Blunt double rolled damage bonus (or halve if its negative)

Cut Double rolled weapon damage

Impale Triple rolled weapon damage

And how they treat Armour

Axe halve AP of Shields

Flail halve AP of Chain (or of all Flexible Armours)

Mace halve AP of Chain (or of all Flexible Armours)

Pick halve AP of Plate

You could certainly do two or more of these

Al

[RosenMcStern]

As using a knife is punished by a giant's kick in Trollball (and you do not know how scary it looks until you have witnessed Greg Privat roleplay the giant - he has the physique du role), I definitely think Trolls use full damage modifiers while using knives. At least during Trollball matches.

[frogspawner]

As using a knife is punished by a giant's kick in Trollball... I definitely think Trolls use full damage modifiers while using knives. At least during Trollball matches.

Er, I'm sure using any excuse to boot Trollball players around is a crowd-pleaser in that universe, but it hardly proves a rule we should use in this one...

This topic has sort of spread from the original question...

Well, if a consensus arose about limiting damage bonuses, it might mean static damage bonuses (better at lower damages) gained favour over random-rolled damage bonuses (better at higher damages). But it's always nice to hear good ideas!

1. Firearms Damage esp. 2d6+4 for Lee Enfields... <snip>

Seems good to me.

2. Limit of Damage Bonus

Or maybe a limit equal to the weapon's STR requirement?

4. Granular Damage Bonus

... But I am most interested in the differences at human scale.

Me too. Wouldn't straight +1, +2 bonuses, up to the point where you start getting +Xd6's, be consistent enough?

5. Rubbish damage rolls with a good hit

This is flaw (some say feature but I say flaw) of BRP.

...

Not bother coz it doesn't come up that often anyway

Yeah, I'm not bothered. But if the 'flaw' bothers you, introducing a new "nearly Special" result (to go with Specials & Criticals) might fix it.

6. Differentiating Weapons

I prefer to differentiate them by how they behave on a Special or Critical

That works for me!

PS: Where'd 3 go?

[Rurik]

Another quick and dirty rule thought is that the Damage Bonus Die cannot be greater than the weapon damage die.

So a troll with a 2d6 Damage Bonus would have have his Damage Bonus limited to 2d3 when using a D3+1 knife. When using a dagger it would be limited to 2d4, etc.

That is just a quick random thought - I do not know the Damage Bonus Progression used by BRP as I have not bought the Zero Edition, so my mindset is coming from the RQ3 DB progression.

[RosenMcStern]

The point is that this works well if the damage dice are connected to the weapon impact and the "+" to sharpness (as it happened in RQ3 where maces had no +s and curved blades had +2). But with maces and axes doing smaller damage dice with a higher flat bonus, this might limit the damage bonus for blunt weapons more than it does for sharp weapons. Not very realistic IMO.

I think this discussion has little practical value. Shifting from a flat to a variable damage bonus is easy if you do not like the "official" values. 1d2 -> +1, 1d4 -> +2, etc. And weapon damage benefits more from special effect to be differentiated than on average rolls, though different rolls add to the enjoyment of most groups. Still, all the complications that can give damage values more realism are not well suited to all groups. Some like detail and realism, others just want to roll dice and get the game flowing.

[Tywyll]

I think this discussion has little practical value.

Perhaps not to you, but to others it does. I'm interested in hearing other people's ideas on the subject, as well as their personal experiences, either with the random damage bonus or with a flat one.

[RosenMcStern]

Perhaps not to you, but to others it does.

Yes, this is what I usually mean when I prepend "I think" to a statement. Isn't it the same for you?

[Tywyll]

Yes, this is what I usually mean when I prepend "I think" to a statement. Isn't it the same for you?

Of course, but to say someone else's discussion has 'little practical value', comes across as saying, "I'm bored of talking/have nothing left to say about this, so this conversation should end now."

[frogspawner]

Of course, but to say someone else's discussion has 'little practical value', comes across as saying, "I'm bored of talking/have nothing left to say about this, so this conversation should end now."

Don't worry, anyone who bothers to read such stuff can probably see that. Just try not to let that kind of comment wind you up. :cool:

Another quick and dirty rule thought is that the Damage Bonus Die cannot be greater than the weapon damage die.

So a troll with a 2d6 Damage Bonus would have have his Damage Bonus limited to 2d3 when using a D3+1 knife. When using a dagger it would be limited to 2d4, etc.

That's just the sort of neat idea I was hoping for. Nice one!

[frogspawner]

The BRP damage bonus progression goes:

STR+SIZ

02-12 -d6

13-16 -d4

17-24 -

25-32 +d4

33-40 +d6

41-56 +2d6

(each +16, another +d6)

[Al.]

The BRP damage bonus progression goes:

STR+SIZ

02-12 -d6

13-16 -d4

17-24 -

25-32 +d4

33-40 +d6

41-56 +2d6

(each +16, another +d6)

So if you were in search of granularity but wanted to keep the 4 point step progression that could become:

STR+SIZ

01-04 -d8 -4

05-08 -d6 -3

09-12 -d4 -2

13-16 -d2 -1

17-24 ±0

25-28 +d2 +1

29-32 +d4 +2

33-36 +d6 +3

37-40 +d8 +4

41-44 +d10 +5

45-48 +2d6 +6

49-52 +d8+d6* +7

53-56 +2d8 +8

57-60 +3d6 +9

(each +4, another +d2 or +1)

(each +12, another +d6 or +3)

*I'd ignore this step personally so just posted for sake of completeness

Al

[Al.]

PS: Where'd 3 go?

Hmmmm

Good question, pass, the drawback of composing a long-winded reply on the fly I suppose.

Al

[RMS]

Another quick and dirty rule thought is that the Damage Bonus Die cannot be greater than the weapon damage die.

So a troll with a 2d6 Damage Bonus would have have his Damage Bonus limited to 2d3 when using a D3+1 knife. When using a dagger it would be limited to 2d4, etc.

That is just a quick random thought - I do not know the Damage Bonus Progression used by BRP as I have not bought the Zero Edition, so my mindset is coming from the RQ3 DB progression.

How about rolling normal damage bonus, but limiting the damage bonus by the rolled weapon damage, or perhaps just limiting it by the maximum weapon damage.

That's just some ideas. Personally, I'm happy to let trolls, giants, and similar get their full damage dice. I don't mind giving some more granularity on the human end using 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, or similar. I also don't mind not having glancing blows for really big creatures. At the granularity of BRP, I'm happy to assume that glancing blows are simply misses and any damage (1 hp or more) is more than just a glancing blow.

[RosenMcStern]

So if you were in search of granularity but wanted to keep the 4 point step progression that could become:

No version of d100 has ever had a 4-point granularity in the table. RQ3 and DBRP are "+1d6 per 16 points" (+3.5 per 16 points), while RQ4 and MRQ are "+1 or +1d2 per five points". Your table is a nice synthesis of RQ4 and MRQ, but the curve is definitely too steep. I have had player characters in my game with STR+SIZ normally enhanced to 66, and the bonuses you suggest are too high (4d6!).

[Tywyll]

How about rolling normal damage bonus, but limiting the damage bonus by the rolled weapon damage, or perhaps just limiting it by the maximum weapon damage.

That's just some ideas. Personally, I'm happy to let trolls, giants, and similar get their full damage dice. I don't mind giving some more granularity on the human end using 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, or similar. I also don't mind not having glancing blows for really big creatures. At the granularity of BRP, I'm happy to assume that glancing blows are simply misses and any damage (1 hp or more) is more than just a glancing blow.

I think that is where I am... which is to say I've always assumed a 'glancing blow' is one that doesn't actually do damage (since the pool of 'life force' i.e. HP is so small, even 2 or 3 damage can be a full 5th or quarter of someone's HP... not really a glance, I'd say). So yeah, if someone successfully dodged, I might describe that as them pulling aside at the last second and only getting 'nicked' by the sword they were avoiding.