Hungry Sable Tribe

[Noita]

What kind of magic would a member of these people use?

I'm making a Sable rider character who was a member of the Antelope Riders. In the Pavis book their runes are Moon, Movement and Beast, would this be the typical runes for each soldier or just representative of the regiment? They worship Yanafal Tarnils so death would be appropriate I suppose?

[metcalph]

I would interpret the runes of moon, movement and beast as an individual lancer will have at least one rune out of the three, are likely to have two and rarely all three.

Yanafal Tarnils is an officer's god not a god of general lunar warfare.  

The Lancers are more likely to worship the Twin Stars for Lunar Magics and Gerendetho for Spear Magics.  

 

 

[Noita]

I was just following the Pavis book where it states that the  "The war gods of the Antelope Lancers are Yanafal Tarnils. Most of the lancers worship the Twin Stars as well. The Antelope Lancers are organized into 16 lances of 30 men plus an officer (who also serves as a priest of Yanafal Tarnils)."

 

"Yanafal Tarnils was responsible for bringing the Lunar Way to the Dara Happan army. Yanafal Tarnils is worshipped by both officers and the rank and file in the regiments (although the officers alsoworship Polaris)."

 

What magic would the Twin Stars give?  Verelia and Erelia are their names yes?

[metcalph]

The regiments were Yanafal Tarnils would be worshipped by the rank-and-file would IMO be lunar regiments in the Heartlands Corps and the Imperial Bodyguard.  

I also think it wise to draw a distinction between the god of the regiment and the gods of the warriors.  Most units in the Imperial Lunar Army worship Yanafal Tarnils in public services as a matter of discipline.  But the Yanafali officers would be the only people to gain effective magic from Yanafal Tarnils and the rank-and-file would look to other gods for their personal war magic.

As for the magic of the twin stars, by best guess is that they can use the moon rune as a trade/communication rune.  The only winkle is that they can use such magics to persuade the recipient to undertake harmful actions (ie Look at me and not my twin who is busy converting your allies to the Lunar Way.  Or Look at the newest converts to the Lunar Way and pay no attention whatsoever to the fact that I am now stabbing you from behind with a dagger).

 

 

 

[Joerg]

Getting an antelope lancer to go native with the Sable riders probably would require contact with other phratries (or what are those sub-tribes with their own queens called) than the two currently allied with the Empire. The relations between the Hungry Plateau sable riders and those Praxians are best caught in the old joke "What has six legs and an asshole on its back?" - this is told by the Lancers about their arrogant Praxian allies. Not vice versa.

Of course, there is always cherchez la femme as a good reason to go native. I even applied that to my Storm Bull NPC Hrut the Thirsty who had the hots for a Paps priestess. And the Paps would be the most likely place to encounter sable riders from those other sub-tribes, especially female ones.

The guide names the powers of the Twin Stars as Eloquence with Barbarians and Deadly Distraction in Crisis. Neither are really useful for soldiers in the Antelope Lancers, and I would expect them to be a women's cult rather than a male cult on the Hungry Plateau.

I don't see the importance in letting the Antelope Lancers have Lunar magics over conventional (probably spirit charm) ones. As a non-magical cavalry unit (according to their stats in the Dragon Pass boardgame), their business magics are likely to pertain to fighting with their lance and for dealing with their steeds, plus protection for steed and rider. The magic of sharing the same ancestor is useful on a regimental level, but not on an individual level unless you carry one or more along in your charms.

If Gerendetho displaces Waha as the everyman's patron on the Hungry Plateau, then I guess Gerendetho would be the default rank-and-file denomination. Spears and antelopes seem to fit his portfolio.

[Noita]

Thanks you two, great stuff as usual. Much appreciated.

[David Scott]

I've the whole Hungry Plateau Sable spirit societies detailed. I did it to look at how they were going to interact with the Praxian societies and where they came from. I'll post the list later, but it's pretty much the same as the list I posted in my Playtest thread with a few obvious changes.

[David Scott]

I spent a bit of time justing this as I wrote it over three years ago and stuff changes. It doesn't include the explanation section. However note that in Cults of Prax there were no Storm Bulls in the Sables (or Humakti). The lack of them was often put down to the Sables Lunar collaboration, however that's not the case. The Mythical genealogy of the Sables is different. Storm Bull is not the Father of their founders, it's the Twinstars themselves. The Younger and the Elder produced the Twin Founders of the Sables with Eiritha. They in turn produced the Seven Sable Daughters with the Sable Protectress, who in turn married Waha's Khan dynasties and produced the Sable phratries. There were actually an unknown number of Sable Daughters, but since the Lunar connection was revealed, it's become seven - 5 in the Wastes, the Hungry Plateau Sables and the lost one. This family tree change modifies the chart found in Cults of Prax for the Sables only. Storm Bull exists in his chaos killer form in small numbers only

 

The Hungry Plateau tradition

 

Primary spirit societies

The Earth Guardians (life/earth/death)  Pelora (earth/life) and Gerendetho (earth/death). Accepts both men and women. Has a shaman path.

 

New male spirit needed to supplement/replace Waha in new land. Candidate: Gerendetho. "Kostaddi: Two thirds of the satrapy's territory is rich farmland, while the rest is the tall foreboding Hungry Plateau. This was the home of the Earth God Gerendetho, who once quarrelled with the giants who lived in a big palatial hill made of granite. During the fight, Gerendetho sheared off the whole top of the hill and the ruins of palace is now called the Hungry Plateau. Gerendetho shoved all the rest of the rock to the side, and that big pile is now called the Jord Mountains."

Gerendetho fulfills the role of dead Genert who would be his father - a "coming home" for any Praxian. For this to work, he has the runes of Death and Earth. Waha defers to him in this land.

 

New female spirit needed to supplement/replace Eiritha in new land. Candidate: Pelora: "Genert and Gata were children of the Primal Earth, and formed two corners of the Earth Rune. Genert fathered many goddesses upon his sister, and they are the land goddesses found everywhere. They gave their names to the regions of Genertela. Hence Ralia is the goddess of Ralios, Frona is the goddess of Fronela, and so forth. In Peloria, the daughter of Genert and Gata was called Pela or Pelora."

Pelora is the land goddess here, she is a sister-wife to Gerendetho. For this to work, she has the runes of Life and Earth. She is not a grain goddess in this form. Eiritha defers to her in this land.

 

The Twinstars (Full Half/sky) The Sky Gazers are subsumed into this society. Now has a Moon Phase.

 

Secondary spirit societies

Waha 

Eiritha

Storm Bull still 0.48/0.02% = 40k/4 = 10k x 0.5%= 50

Helpwoman

Daka Fal

 

Tertiary spirit societies

Orogerian society (crescent come) replacing Foundchild

The Burners (fire) -  less Praxian spirits, more local ones. 

The Shadow People (darkness) - less Praxian spirits, more local ones.

The Thirstless (water) - less Praxian spirits, more local ones.

 

Others

Etyries replacing Issaries

Irrippi Ontor & Buserian replacing Lhankor Mhy

Chalana Arroy (harmony/life/harmony) was 0/4% - unchanged. 

Lunar/solar military cults that replaced Yelmalio 30/0%

Seven Mothers (life/moon/death) was 20/20% - exists, but now includes the whole Lunar pantheon and tradition.

Edited January 18, 2016 by David Scott

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The Earth Guardians xet. Pelora ex and Gerendetho et. Accepts both men and women. Has a shaman path.

 

x: Fertility Rune

e: Earth Rune

t: Death Rune

Correct?

[David Scott]

Yes. I'll edit the post later to correct the missing rune font. 

 

Done

Edited January 18, 2016 by David Scott

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I spent a bit of time justing this as I wrote it over three years ago and stuff changes. It doesn't include the explanation section. However note that in Cults of Prax there were no Storm Bulls in the Sables (or Humakti). The lack of them was often put down to the Sables Lunar collaboration, however that's not the case. The Mythical genealogy of the Sables is different. Storm Bull is not the Father of their founders, it's the Twinstars themselves.

 This is a Big Change to conceived knowledge. Do the other Praxian myths (like descent from the Spike, following Storm Bull) still apply?

Or will we find similar revelations about the other Founders?

Quote

The Younger and the Elder produced the Twin Founders of the Sables with Eiritha. They in turn produced the Seven Sable Daughters with the Sable Protectress, who in turn married Waha's Khan dynasties and produced the Sable phratries. There were actually an unknown number of Sable Daughters, but since the Lunar connection was revealed, it's become seven - 5 in the Wastes, the Hungry Plateau Sables and the lost one. This family tree change modifies the chart found in Cults of Prax for the Sables only. Storm Bull exists in his chaos killer form in small numbers only

So the Storm Bull descent comes only indirectly through the Waha Khan dynasties (which make sense as such, given that the majority of the Sable Riders started out without Storm Bull as ancestor. Nowadays one can expect every Sable Rider to have some Waha Khan as an ancestor, but at a guess 2/3 of them not through a direct male line. (Compare the genetic evidence for direct male line Cohanim descent in the Jewish population, as cited in one of the Science of Diskworld books.)

How did the female appearance of the Twinstars at the gates of Glamour come across? Shamanic gender uncertainty (vaguely remembered from another thread on the Hungry Plateau Sables)?

And what is the chance that the Twinstars are offspring of Storm Bull?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Joerg

[David Scott]

This only applies to the Sables and no others. From Cults of Prax it was clear that they were different, we just didn't understand how. The other major founders' mythology isn't changing. The only one that is going to be clearly different (not Storm Bull) is the Founder of the Zebra Tribe, but that's easy to figure out. As for the other minor tribes, I've not delved deeply into them yet.

Twinstars have an ambiguous gender, sometime identical twins, male or female, sometimes fraternal twins, sometimes genderless. This isn't a problem for the Praxians - they are stars, and with an animistic basis for their culture, not unusual.

Personally I doubt that the Twinstars are offspring of Storm Bull. I'm also not going to define their origin, apart from an undefined moon connection. For me, their origin doesn't need defining and isn't important.

[metcalph]

AFAIK the Twin Stars are celestial relics of the primal Twins (Maker and Grower in the Monomyth?  That's them twins).  They had faded in the Golden Age (they appear on the Gods Wall as the two midgets whom Plentonius amusingly calls Orlanth and Valind).  The Sables are one of the few people left in the world to actually have myths involving the Twin Stars.  Everybody else has forgotten them and attempts to find new myths have failed because no gloranthan really understood what the Twins are.  

[Ian A. Thomson]

Have to write up some simple spirits for the Sable Antelope Lancers in Pavis. I'd like to use this as a basis. I won't be writing anything remotely complex, but since you've done good work, I would prefer to riff off this rather than create something new (which wouldn't be as good anyway!!) I'm also finding it hard to work out how Spirit Cults work in terms of writing them out. Is there a fleshed out RQG Spirit Cult available anywhere? (Not just the small versions like Black Fang?) Cheers

[Nick Brooke]

Spirit Cults don't really get fleshed out much: a paragraph describing the spirit and maybe one new Rune spell, that's usually yer lot. They are informal, pulled together ad hoc by shamans; they don't have cult ranks -- lay, initiate, Rune level -- and any membership requirements are most likely an odd taboo or ritual requirement rather than a way of life. The details in RQG pages 377-9 are all you really need to know: the rest is most likely to be scenario or setting material.

I have RQG versions of two Newtling spirit cults in Black Spear, and commend to you my old article on Spirit Cults in RQ3, which shows how pick-up-and-put-downable I think they ought to be: the ur-source, Nomad Gods, shows us that Praxian clans can turn on a dime to start following a new spirit cult overnight, if their khan or shaman think it'll help them out this season.

[Nick Brooke]

Here's what I wrote 24 years ago:

NICK BROOKE'S SUGGESTED SPIRIT CULT RULES (1998, for RQ3)

1) First Catch Your Spirit...

Shamans need to have the 1-POW Rune spell Summon <spirit> before they can organise Spirit Cult worship. Any friendly spirit will teach this to a Shaman it encounters: spirits can be met by chance while wandering the spirit plane, contacted deliberately by going to places that are known to be holy to them, or summoned by holding a summoning ritual to attract their attention (in an appropriate location, appropriately garbed, with appropriate ritual objects, offerings and sacrifices).

Chance encounters are left to the GM. Holy places can be assigned depending on campaign needs; el pendejo's recent list of the spirit-cult holy places in Prax (quoted below) gives a fair idea of frequency. Summoning spirits here are easy, though full ceremony is usually employed (better safe than sorry!).

For summonings, a Summon skill roll is needed (modified by Ceremony attempts measured in hours): on a failure, the Shaman loses one POW and does not gain the Rune spell; on a success, the Rune spell is learned and the spirit appears for the Shaman. The difficulty of the Summon roll is modified by the GM, as the base Summon % only applies under ideal circumstances: good location, props, and knowledge.

Summon <spirit> is a reusable one-point Rune spell available to all shamans. It is automatically regained one season after its last use, whether or not that Summoning ended in a worship service (successful or otherwise). This is why Spirit Cult worship normally occurs every season. A Shaman may sacrifice for more than one use of the spell: this is entirely acceptable, and allows more frequent summoning and worship of the spirit in question.

Some divine or divine/shamanic cults encourage worship of certain spirit cults, and may maintain ritual knowledge, apparatus or sites that makes this easier and more readily available to their practitioners.  In a sense, a sub-cult shrine is a permanent, institutionalised  "Spirit Cult", with its own occasional devotees, attracting a fragment of the worship given by Initiates of the main cult to their deity. But that's enough God Learning metaphysical speculation for today!

2) Then Worship It...

A Summoned spirit should be worshipped. To be a member of a Spirit Cult congregation costs 1 POW, sacrificed in a manner analogous to Initiation. This should be noted on the character sheet, as it is normally permanent (someone who once worshipped Sun Hawk in their youth can still do so in old age, if the spirit can be found). At the worship ceremony, worshippers sacrifice all but one of their MP to the spirit. Roll 1D100: if the number rolled is less than or equal to the number of worshippers, the worship was successful.

If you attend a worship service but are not a worshipper (you're present, but have not given POW to the spirit), the Shaman and/or Spirit may detect you and feel unkind towards you: a POWx3% roll is probably appropriate (they are detecting your "uninvolved" POW, so having a high POW works against you), whether you are "hanging out" in the congregation, hiding behind a nearby rock, or whatever. Commonly, simpler and/or more malicious spirits assume such persons are intended as sacrifices, and don't ask twice before tucking in!

Spirit Cult worship does not require a "Worship" Rune spell. The Shaman's ability to summon the spirit is equivalent to this. Shamans who have sacrificed for the relevant Summon spell do not need to sacrifice 1 POW to participate in Spirit Cult worship: they already have a "link" of sorts to the spirit, understanding its nature well enough to direct Magic Points to it (compare with Initiation).

3) Then Get Its Magic...

Spirit Cult worshippers who have participated in successful worship can sacrifice for the spirit's Rune spell(s). Shamans who know the relevant Summon ritual can gain these Rune spells "reusably": they are regained every time a successful worship service is held with the Shaman participating or leading worship. "Ordinary" worshippers regain the use of their Rune spells as per normal one-use magic (i.e. if you follow my One-Use Rune Magic guidelines, they are regained annually following a successful worship service; if not, they are one-shot spells, gone for good once cast).

4) And Keep It Happy...

Some spirits will require certain actions, attitudes or taboos from their followers. Most can't afford to be so picky, or their "cult requirements" are pathetically trivial (e.g. "always butcher frogs"). Some can be scary, though: be creative! A follower who breaks his taboos cannot successfully participate in the next worship service (i.e. his participation counts for nothing, he is not a % in the Shaman's roll, he cannot gain or regain Rune magics). A Shaman who breaks his taboos has the replenishment of his Summon spell delayed for another season, and may have to explain this to his congregation.

Successful spirit cult worship is normally carried out seasonally: this is magically efficient, keeps the spirit happy, and tops up cultists' Rune spells on a regular basis. Spirits can afford to be forgiving, though -- their sense of time is different to ours -- and will not bear lethal grudges if "neglected" for a while. Most are pathetically grateful for whatever worship they can attract, and see no point in driving away their semi-faithful worshippers.

Major religions consider most spirit cults beneath their notice. Most spirit cults are glad of any worship they can attract. It is unusual for a mainstream cult to bear a special animus towards a spirit cult (how did it survive?), or for a spirit cult to have unduly onerous membership requirements (how did it survive?). Clearly there are general exceptions -- a Yelm priest is unlikely to sympathise with shamanic worship in any case, even less with shamanic worship of Darkness spirits. And the mutual antagonism between the Three Feathered Rivals is famed throughout Prax: pity the Shaman who maintains good relations with more than one of these quarrelsome birds!

5) And Trust The GM!

Spirit Cults are ideal for GMs wanting to spring surprises on their players. As opponents, they are sources of weird, one-off Rune spells for otherwise "normal" opponents. If followed by the players, the ad-hoccery inherent in Spirit Cult worship invites new and interesting scenarios, heroquests, and challenges. Spirits have interests, needs, requirements, and objectives, just as much as player characters do: a spirit cult with powerful and capable followers will encourage the spirit to widen its horizons, expecting  more and more from its "faithful" devotees.
 

Quote

FAVORED SPIRIT CULTS OF THE SACRED PLACES OF PRAX

ALL OASES AND ALTARS (i.e., not Adari, Barbarian Town, Big Rubble, Condor Crags, Jaldon's Point, Obscure Plinth, and Tada's High Tumulus) -- Ronance, River Horse, Frog Woman

ADARI -- as normal for the inhabitants (i.e., can be troll, Praxian, or Orlanthi)

AGAPE -- Malia, Night Woman, Dew Maid

BARBARIAN TOWN -- Pure Horse Founder, Good Shepherd, Lightning Boy, Thunder Bird, Orlanthi Spirit Cults

THE BIG RUBBLE -- Iffinbix, Yojarl Third-Eye, the Seventeen Foes of Waha, Great Rhino, Sun Dragon

BIGGLE STONE -- Mee Vorala

CAM'S WELL -- Camenura

"CORFLU" -- Zola Fel, Cleansed One, Gorakiki-Dragonfly, Rainbow Girl

CONDOR CRAGS -- Condor

DAY'S REST -- the Protectresses, Good Shepherd

HORN GATE -- Chan-Rolla (pronounced Chan Roya), Bronze Treasure, Morning Star, Ostrich Mother (actually, Viskoz Mountain, which is nearby)

JALDON'S POINT -- no Spirit Cult summoning is possible here

MALIA'S STOOL -- Malia, Thed, all chaos; Hyena, Condor

MONKEY RUINS -- Oakfed, Monkey King

MOONBROTH -- Moonbroth, Wild Hunter, Bronze Treasure; since the coming of the Lunars, the Star Twins have also been worshiped here

OBSCURE PLINTH -- no Spirit Cult summoning is possible here

PAIRING STONE -- Dark Eater, Grandmother of Spiders, Thunder Bird, Sun Hawk, Silver Deer, Pole Star, White Princess

PIMPER'S BLOCK -- Lightning Boy, the Protectresses, Evening Star

SOG'S RUINS -- Sog; lately, broos have been gathering here

SUN DOME (if the nomads could get to the holy place) -- Sun Hawk, Raven, Hyena (I don't remember why), Morning Star, Evening Star

TADA'S HIGH TUMULUS -- no Spirit Cult summoning is possible here

TOURNEY ALTAR -- Lightning Boy, Pole Star, Thunder Bird, Bronze Treasure, Monkey King, the Iron Man

WINTER RUINS -- White Princess, Raven, Thunder Bird

SPECIAL -- the Father of Independents can generally only be worshiped at one of a few special places on the edge of the Dead Place, all of which are generally known to the shamans of the tribes, but are kept secret from outlanders. Also, the various Great Spirits (Wild Hunter, Zola Fel, Dark Eater, and Oakfed) can generally only be worshiped by the Praxians at the locations specified above. The actual shamanic cults which worship these entities have no such limitation.

Finally, note that only Brother Dog and Foundchild of the main Spirit Cults have no particular places associated with them in myth, and seem to have no oases or altars which they prefer to others, or at which they have been more often contacted throughout the ages.

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[hipsterinspace]

From what I’ve read in other threads, the big thing with a spirit society (vs the spirit cults) is the shared rune pool between a collection of related spirit cults. For the Twin Stars Society, the only details I’ve really seen are that they typically offer the rune spells Charisma (fire/sky) and Benison (moon), are associated with Moonbroth which offers Divination as per the Blue Moon, and a couple other moon spirits which were named but not really remarked on in any detail: Silver Deer and Redwood. I am very curious about the canon side of things, but the flexibility of spirits means making things up on the fly probably works as well as anything else.

[Joerg]

54 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

From what I’ve read in other threads, the big thing with a spirit society (vs the spirit cults) is the shared rune pool between a collection of related spirit cults. For the Twin Stars Society, the only details I’ve really seen are that they typically offer the rune spells Charisma (fire/sky) and Benison (moon), are associated with Moonbroth which offers Divination as per the Blue Moon, and a couple other moon spirits which were named but not really remarked on in any detail: Silver Deer and Redwood. I am very curious about the canon side of things, but the flexibility of spirits means making things up on the fly probably works as well as anything else.

The Lunar spirits in Prax are from the Nomad God counters explained in Wyrm's Footnotes #04. These are considered as extension of the foundational text in Nomad Gods (except where updated in the Guide to Glorantha), thus pretty close to canon as things can be.

What follows isn't canon, but my view of these things: The Silver Deer is the uncatchable prey that figures greatly in the Hunter cults, and which turns out to be the Other of the hunter in hunter myths like Odayla's bear hunt, Orogeria's blue fox hunt. (Note the role of the Sky Bear in the Red Goddess quest, and how that worked out in Hwarin Dalthippas's assimilation and conquest of Sylila.)

Another interpretation of the Silver Deer however is the White Bull, discovered by Argrath - the special beast of each tribe's herd that unites these warrior and magician troops.

Redwood is of course related to the Redwood of Dagori Inkarth, which used to cover most of the holy land of Golden Age and even Storm Age Prax when the Tada-shi lived there practicing their horticulture, allowing the Beast Rider tribes to graze in the lands in between. The savannah of Prax was sacrificed to Oakfed in the Greater Darkness, before Waha reclaimed what was left of the devastated land with his covenant.

In three or four weeks, expect some more informaiton on some of this.