What skills are needed

[rust]

Ah, with it listed at 0% the player knows he can't swim.

Well, we handle it the other way, what is not listed is not there - otherwise

I would have to write incredibly long lists ("There is no Nuclear Physics at

0 %, and no Find Enriched Uranium at 0 %, so I can build that bomb !")

[frogspawner]

Well, we handle it the other way, what is not listed is not there...

Which is perfectly fine, except for Swim. That's the one skill that is so fundamental (and potentially life-saving) that players really should have to "contract out" of spending any skill points on at character creation, if they dare. Then they've only themselves to blame.

[rleduc]

This is a very interesting approach. I usually write a skill list for a specific

setting, but allow the players to convince me to add a certain skill to this

list if they really think that their character concept requires it.

I also allow negotiation on closed skill lists – and since closed list skills are non-overlapping, they are easy to add – because they don’t affect any other skill.

In the above example if someone wanted to play a guy from an ICBM silo who would know how to launch them – I would make him take the appropriate amounts of electronics, computers etc and then allow a new skill of ICBM Launching. This new skill would only apply to launching big rockets. Now imagine this guy needed to use a computer to access security information, and he might argue, “While in the silo the PC did this all the time, so can I use my Launch ICBM skill?” I would say, no this is a computer use roll – but you have experience in that, so just use that roll.

[rust]

Which is perfectly fine, except for Swim. That's the one skill that is so fundamental (and potentially life-saving) that players really should have to "contract out" of spending any skill points on at character creation, if they dare. Then they've only themselves to blame.

Remember, we were writing about that desert nomad setting without any op-

portunity to learn or use swimming. In this setting swimming does not exist

as a skill, the characters can neither opt in nor out because there is nothing

there.

If you dislike the example, take a campaign on spaceships and space stations

in an asteroid belt where water is both extremely rare and extremely expensi-

ve: Again, no Swim skill on the character sheet, because that skill does not

exist in that setting.

[rust]

I also allow negotiation on closed skill lists – and since closed list skills are non-overlapping, they are easy to add – because they don’t affect any other skill.

Again a very interesting idea, I think I will have to take a second look at my

setting's skill list with that in mind - thank you !

[mrk]

I fail to see any practical difference between a skill listed at 0 % and a skill not listed at all. But we do not have to agree on this, everyone as he likes.

That's because just it's more then a skill, it's a basic function of being a human being. Just like jumping, walking, seeing, hearing and anything else you physically can do on your own.

Edited July 22, 2008 by mrk

[soltakss]

Well, no, swimming is not a basic skill that everyone has. You have to learn to swim and I know several people who cannot swim. Even many sailors couldn't swim (the rationale being that if you were wrecked at sea then swimming wouldn't save you).

I'm a fan of cultural skills. So you start off with a culture and get your skill basics based on that culture. Bushmen would have a different base skill set than citizens of Metropolis, for example.

[frogspawner]

Remember, we were writing about that desert nomad setting without any opportunity to learn or use swimming.

I think the discussion was more general than that. But even so, it would be a failure of imagination to think a character originating in such a setting could never find themselves in a situation where Swim might be relevant. (The space-farers might have to flush-out an alien from the station's water tanks or the GM might see it as relevant to Zero-G manouevering; the nomads might suffer flash-floods or raid a decadent imperialists bath-house...). And so it should be listed on the character sheet, if only to draw the players' attention to the fact they can't do it - so they've had fair warning.

[Nightshade]

Well, no, swimming is not a basic skill that everyone has. You have to learn to swim and I know several people who cannot swim. Even many sailors couldn't swim (the rationale being that if you were wrecked at sea then swimming wouldn't save you).

Actually, there's pretty good reason to believe it _is_ a basic skill, but that some default phobias get in the way of it. Very young children will take to it in a basic dogpaddle in one session if they're fears are assuaged, and that tends to suggest that humans are pretty much natural swimmers. The only reason almost anyone can't swim after a fashion is that they panic.

[vagabond]

Actually, there's pretty good reason to believe it _is_ a basic skill, but that some default phobias get in the way of it. Very young children will take to it in a basic dogpaddle in one session if they're fears are assuaged, and that tends to suggest that humans are pretty much natural swimmers. The only reason almost anyone can't swim after a fashion is that they panic.

Except for the fact that my son a) is not afraid of water, and cannot swim.

He cannot even dogpaddle. The main reason we have enrolled him in swimming

lessons is because he is unafraid of the water - he wades into the ocean/bay

without any hesitation.

-V

[Nightshade]

Except for the fact that my son a) is not afraid of water, and cannot swim.

He cannot even dogpaddle. The main reason we have enrolled him in swimming

lessons is because he is unafraid of the water - he wades into the ocean/bay

without any hesitation.

-V

There are aberrations in any population; I suspect if you look long enough you'll find people who fail at any common skill, no matter how natural it is. That doesn't change the basic point, as BRP ignores outlayers in other areas, too.

[vagabond]

There are aberrations in any population; I suspect if you look long enough you'll find people who fail at any common skill, no matter how natural it is. That doesn't change the basic point, as BRP ignores outlayers in other areas, too.

OK, but if we go back to your premise that some - not all - young children will

take to swimming in a single session via dogpaddling as long as their fears are

conquered, then one can say that the "swimming skill" is part technique and

part "overcoming the fear of water". Considering how swimming is taught, I

would say that is the correct assumption.

Now, as far as "natural" ability vs. "learned" ability, while I agree that some

young children can take to swimming immediately, I know that all will not. And,

since we cannot determine where the majority lies, it again makes sense that

it is more of a learned skill than an innate ability in humans. As you say, there

are outlayers. Who's to say which is the "outlayer" in this case?

-V

[rust]

Perhaps a bit of statistics from the USA might help ...

Drowning is one of the leading causes of unintentional injury death among all ages. (CDC, 1998)

In 2000, 3,482 unintentional drownings occurred in the United States. This does not include people who

drowned in boating-related incidents *. The United States Coast Guard reported 519 boating-related

drownings in 2000**. (*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 2002; **US Coast Guard, 2001)

Drowning is the second leading cause of unintentional injury death among children ages 1-14. (CDC,

2002)

To me, this does not seem to fit the idea of a natural swimming skill.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Errr, why the fuss over swimming? It's just one skill. Is there an ink and paper shortage too?

[badcat]

Just an anecdote.

When I was in Navy boot camp, I found that the method of 'teaching' us to swim was to walk us out on a diving board and push us in; if you swam you stayed if you had to be pulled out by the lifeguard you washed out. Period. I did not know how to swim, and was afraid to get into deep water. But when I jumped in I kept my cool and did what they had instructed us to do, and passed the test...so I think humans do know instinctively how to swim as long as they don't panic. It should have a base percentage of some sort, IMO.

And you might ask what I was doing in the Navy? Avoiding Vietnam while doing my duty as I saw it. When I got drafted, I joined the Navy right there at the recruiting station as soon as I passed the physical.

[Nightshade]

OK, but if we go back to your premise that some - not all - young children will

take to swimming in a single session via dogpaddling as long as their fears are

conquered, then one can say that the "swimming skill" is part technique and

part "overcoming the fear of water". Considering how swimming is taught, I

would say that is the correct assumption.

Sure.

Now, as far as "natural" ability vs. "learned" ability, while I agree that some

young children can take to swimming immediately, I know that all will not. And,

But all people don't take to anything, including many other skills with a base. I doubt most people would suggest Thrown Object not have a base, but I was completely hopeless with anything resembling a baseball or the like. As I said, unless you're going to introduce an "aberration point" system to deal with these sorts of outlayers, the system ignores it.

since we cannot determine where the majority lies, it again makes sense that

it is more of a learned skill than an innate ability in humans. As you say, there

are outlayers. Who's to say which is the "outlayer" in this case?

-V

Well, honestly, by all evidence I've seen, the nonswimmers. That's the point. I don't think there's any indication that humans aren't natural swimmers as a group, but there is evidence to the contrary. Panic is an issue, but its an issue in combat too, but we leave that up to the players; I don't see a reason to do differently here.

[Nightshade]

Perhaps a bit of statistics from the USA might help ...

Drowning is one of the leading causes of unintentional injury death among all ages. (CDC, 1998)

In 2000, 3,482 unintentional drownings occurred in the United States. This does not include people who

drowned in boating-related incidents *. The United States Coast Guard reported 519 boating-related

drownings in 2000**. (*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 2002; **US Coast Guard, 2001)

Drowning is the second leading cause of unintentional injury death among children ages 1-14. (CDC,

2002)

To me, this does not seem to fit the idea of a natural swimming skill.

Take a look at how often other elements are in play in the drowning cases though; in particular, alcohol or other injury. I also have to note that a minimal swimming skill will _not_ protect you from drowning consistently in many situations, so the fact people drown a lot doesn't say they aren't natural swimmers; its just that like a lot of minimal skill, that doesn't say they are _good_ ones.

[vagabond]

Period. I did not know how to swim, and was afraid to get into deep water. But when I jumped in I kept my cool and did what they had instructed us to do, and passed the test...

Key phrase - "did what they had instructed us to do".

I would say, that, barring any significant physical or mental handicap:

Every adult human can run

Every adult human can jump

Every adult human can lift

NOT every adult human can swim

-V

[vagabond]

Well, honestly, by all evidence I've seen, the nonswimmers. That's the point. I don't think there's any indication that humans aren't natural swimmers as a group, but there is evidence to the contrary. Panic is an issue, but its an issue in combat too, but we leave that up to the players; I don't see a reason to do differently here.

But, every non-handicapped human can swing a weapon. Maybe not well, but

they can. Not every non-handicapped human can swim.

Panic can play a part, but it plays an equal part in both instances.

-V

[Nightshade]

But, every non-handicapped human can swing a weapon. Maybe not well, but

they can. Not every non-handicapped human can swim.

Panic can play a part, but it plays an equal part in both instances.

-V

Note my comment about my ability throwing objects. I almost literally couldn't hit the side of a barn. I don't have any reason to believe that the nonswimmers aren't in the same boat I'm in; they don't have no ability with it, just minimal, and again, we ignore cases like me when setting percentages.

[frogspawner]

:focus:

...so, we now have proof that inherent ability to swim (or lack of it) could cause arguments!

That's why Swim should be printed on the sheet, so everyone can see what their character can do (or can't)...

[rust]

:focus:

...so, we now have proof that inherent ability to swim (or lack of it) could cause arguments!

That's why Swim should be printed on the sheet, so everyone can see what their character can do (or can't)...

I am tempted to continue this epic "swimming debate" just for the fun of it,

but on the other hand ... :deadhorse:

[vagabond]

Note my comment about my ability throwing objects. I almost literally couldn't hit the side of a barn. I don't have any reason to believe that the nonswimmers aren't in the same boat I'm in; they don't have no ability with it, just minimal, and again, we ignore cases like me when setting percentages.

There is a difference. You can still throw an object. And, you can learn to

throw better on your own. Swimming is different.

Let's try to put this to rest. BRP allows for a couple of situations regarding

difficult skills and "innate" ability. By default, even a skill at 0% can be

attempted and succeed on a roll of "01". Also, with the optional skill category

bonuses, swimming would start with a base percentage. It all depends on

the setting/game.

Now, excluding some edge cases with walking, since I can assure you there

probably are adults who never learned to walk, there are some things that

need to be taken into consideration. Infants are taught to crawl, walk, etc.

They possess some innate skill, and can probably get up on their feet by

themselves. And, the infants we see "swimming" innately usually do so for

at most a minute or two, and then someone scoops them up. Why? Because,

left on their own, they would drown. It's not necessarily fear, but it is lack of

skill and stamina, all of which are parts of learning to swim. Children fall/jump

into pools all of the time and drown. They may or may not panic, they may

or may not dogpaddle briefly, and they may or may not hold their breath

briefly. But, because they lack the skill to swim, any innate ability is insufficient

to save their lives. It is sad, and I am not making light of the subject, but

that is unfortunately the way it is.

I am not against setting base swim percentages in your campaigns. That

is your choice, and indeed, in many campaigns, it is appropriate. However,

as a default, I do not see it. Also, my entrance into this discussion came from

the concept of grouping swimming under a broader athletics skill, which I

feel is inappropriate. It is much more specialized than running, lifting and

throwing. And with that, I think I have beat the dead horse too much.

-V

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

:deadhorse:

[badcat]

I see your point, vagabond, but don't you think a little 'survival instinct' was involved? Enough to justify a small chance on a character sheet, even if it is just the skill bonus?