Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 13 - Sylila

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Tcneseis said:

Suppose the satrap is actually invested with a heavy religious burden, like this -- the Red Emperor rules Sylila, with the satrap as a representative. But otherwise the satrap is the Red Emperor. Now Hwarin Dalthippa is the Emperor's daughter. But the Red Emperor cannot be his own daughter's high priest, because she should worship him, not the other way round. So the satrap cannot either.

the satrap owes worship as a representative of the satrapy's inhabitants, not as a representative of the Emperor. a patron god is worshipped by those it benefits, like the leader of the lands it protects. it's separate. their office responsibilities are not solely as a tool: they too have personal responsibilities.

if the Emperor was to take over as satrap, he would not worship Hwarin Dalthippa because the Emperor is a superior deity to Her, but without a doubt, he'd appoint an assistant to provide worship on behalf of the office of the Satrapy.

4 hours ago, Tcneseis said:

Why would the temple owe any tribute to the Provincial kings?

this is how nobility works: bribery

[Tcneseis]

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the satrap owes worship as a representative of the satrapy's inhabitants, not as a representative of the Emperor. a patron god is worshipped by those it benefits, like the leader of the lands it protects. it's separate. their office responsibilities are not solely as a tool: they too have personal responsibilities.

Ok. Then the office of priest is conferred on the satrap, not by the Emperor, but by the Sylilan people.

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is how nobility works: bribery

Is it necessary to convince a tributary king? In my opinion, Hwarin Dalthippa's cult should be exempted from taxes to the Provincial kings, though the Emperor may collect his cut of the tithes. 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Tcneseis said:

Is it necessary to convince a tributary king? In my opinion, Hwarin Dalthippa's cult should be exempted from taxes to the Provincial kings, though the Emperor may collect his cut of the tithes. 

The Emperor may have granted an exemption but that can be eroded.  First the Satrap asks for a donation.  Then the donations become regular.  Then the regular donations are formally recognized as a tax.  

[Tcneseis]

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Emperor may have granted an exemption but that can be eroded.  First the Satrap asks for a donation.  Then the donations become regular.  Then the regular donations are formally recognized as a tax.  

I doubt that the Temples of the Reaching Moon pay any tax. Then you have cases like Etyries' cult. Isn't it rather individual merchants who should pay a tax on their profits to whatever authority is able to control them? Hwarin Dalthippa's cult brings many benefits and is a sacred duty, so I don't understand how secular powers would be able to levy tax on her temples. 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Tcneseis said:

I doubt that the Temples of the Reaching Moon pay any tax. Then you have cases like Etyries' cult. Isn't it rather individual merchants who should pay a tax on their profits to whatever authority is able to control them? Hwarin Dalthippa's cult brings many benefits and is a sacred duty, so I don't understand how secular powers would be able to levy tax on her temples. 

You are judging the Lunar Empire by modern day governmental practices whereas they don't understand what is meant by secular powers.  For example, the question is not whether the Temple of the Reaching Moon should pay tax to the Satrap but whether the Satrap has managed to make the Temple to pay tax to him.  The Temple Priests in addition to their deity have clan loyalties.  Any Satrap worthy of his title should be able to lean on a clan or two in order to make the temple cough up some money.    In RW history, this is where religious institutions got the incentive of forging charters to give them tax-free status

[Tcneseis]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

For example, the question is not whether the Temple of the Reaching Moon should pay tax to the Satrap but whether the Satrap has managed to make the Temple to pay tax to him.

If it's a question of power, it should be harder.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Temple Priests in addition to their deity have clan loyalties.  Any Satrap worthy of his title should be able to lean on a clan or two in order to make the temple cough up some money.    In RW history, this is where religious institutions got the incentive of forging charters to give them tax-free status

Yes, I see.

 

 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

37 minutes ago, Tcneseis said:

If it's a question of power, it should be harder.

Who is more powerful than the Emperor's temporal representative?  

[Tcneseis]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

1 hour ago, Tcneseis said:

If it's a question of power, it should be harder.

Who is more powerful than the Emperor's temporal representative?  

Certainly, but in that case clan loyalties to a priest rather than to the Satrap may cause serious trouble in the Satrapy.

Powerful temples like the Temple of the Reaching Moon or Hwarin Dalthippa are strategic. Their loyalty shouldn't be questionable. Both extend outside the areas controlled by Satraps. But the natives provide some of the resources needed to work the temples. Other, less powerful temples, can be managed from within a Satrapy. Non-Lunar temples can be required to pay taxes. Now, maybe the temples are not organised in economic networks and pay their taxes to different local rulers, but the empire may have an incentive to deal with these networks directly. Appius Luxius, who oversees the Lunar Provinces, has this type of relation with the Emperor. Maybe I've missed a reference somewhere.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Tcneseis

[jajagappa]

On 10/9/2019 at 3:46 PM, Tcneseis said:

Their loyalty shouldn't be questionable.

That's one reason Dart Wars exist!  And they can result in the Red Emperor's temporary demise. 

On 10/9/2019 at 3:46 PM, Tcneseis said:

Non-Lunar temples can be required to pay taxes. Now, maybe the temples are not organised in economic networks and pay their taxes to different local rulers, but the empire may have an incentive to deal with these networks directly.

Try not to think "taxes" as that is very modern.  It's very much a tribute-for-protection arrangement, and can go in multiple directions and along both material and magical lines.

On 10/9/2019 at 3:46 PM, Tcneseis said:

Appius Luxius, who oversees the Lunar Provinces, has this type of relation with the Emperor.

Appius is the son of the Red Emperor (at least of one of his masks). He brings the might of the Lunar Empire and its magical/military protection to the provinces, and he receives tribute from the Provincial Kings, as well as labor for projects, army units for the Provincial Army, etc. (Before Appius, the first Provincial overlord was the King of Tarsh.)  Appius has control over the Lunar Provincial Army (paid for by both tribute directly and by obligations due in service from Provincial Kings); and the Provincial temples (e.g. the Temple of the Seven Mothers).  There are temples outside his direct control.  Temple of Hwarin Dalthippa falls under the Satrap of Sylila, but also to the Red Emperor (there can be multiple lines of obligations). Temple of the Reaching Moon goes up to the High Priestess of that cult, then to both the Red Emperor and of course ultimately the Red Goddess.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And they can result in the Red Emperor's temporary demise. 

We should be clear that sometimes the goal of a Dart War is to kill the current Mask so the next-in-line can assume the throne. Once Monsoon messed with the Sultanate of Tork sometime during his fights with Sheng Seleris, the Chaos hordes managed to kill or maim some of his Egi somehow as they killed him. That lead to him requiring "hosts" to reincarnate, thus creating the Mask system.

Masks have enough personality left in them that they can and do favor their original bloodlines and the like, so after a bold assassin's attempt on a noble accidentally killed the Red Emperor's Mask and the result wasn't a mass genocide of those responsible ... yeah, let's just say The Game Suddenly Was Afoot.

Notably, the vengeance of the assassinated Red Emperor comes in the form of... the Tax Demons. I'm not 100% sure what that means but I'm pretty sure it means you better be scrupulous in honoring the throne with offerings if you are going to try to replace His Majesty's current body.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Tcneseis]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Try not to think "taxes" as that is very modern.  It's very much a tribute-for-protection arrangement, and can go in multiple directions and along both material and magical lines.

The Guide calls them taxes. Can the satraps or the emperors pay such tributes-for-protection? That would mean they are trying to buy powerful enemies, but it's not the same thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tcneseis]

On 10/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Notably, the vengeance of the assassinated Red Emperor comes in the form of... the Tax Demons.

Perhaps if the creditor pays his debt (including some financial penalty), the Tax Demons will show clemency.

On 10/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm not 100% sure what that means but I'm pretty sure it means you better be scrupulous in honoring the throne with offerings if you are going to try to replace His Majesty's current body.

I'm not sure. You could grab the throne then cancel your own debt. I have no idea who the Tax Demons obey in the empire, but in my opinion, some people are loyal enough to the Emperor, others are not. So the process could be a little more similar to how Khordavu gained the Princes of the Ten Tests' loyalty in the First Age.