Using an ability as an augment for itself

[Colgrevance]

Am I missing something or is is there really nothing in the rules preventing me from using an ability as an augment for itself, or a keyword as an augment for a breakout ability associated with it (assuming I am fulfilling the other, metagame requirements for augments, obviously)?

[David Scott]

HeroQuest page 53

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Together with the Narrator, you frame the contest, making it clear how your action will assist the recipient (who might be you, or another character).

The contest frame (normally) prevents it. I use my Mountaineer keyword to augment my climb glacier breakout. Climb glacier is a specialism of mountaineer, you would be trying to augment a specialism with a general version of itself. Likewise trying to augment a general skill with itself won’t work in the framing as the keyword is itself. I augment my mountaineering skill with my mountaineering, it won’t frame in real life. 

[Colgrevance]

Thanks for your answer, I can see this being a problem with very specific abilties. But (to take your example) let's say I use my "mountaineer" keyword to prepare and check my equipment, look for viable routes etc. and thereby augment my "climb glacier" breakout ability for the actual climbing. For the augment, I won't get the specificity bonus (and might even get a penalty if someone in my group has a more specific ability), but I don't see why this should not work. A similar case can be constructed for all keywords and most abilities, I am sure.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Colgrevance

[Colgrevance]

BTw, I am asking because I saw just such a prohibition to augment the same ability in RQG, and was wondering why such a rule does not exist in HeroQuest, where it would make much more sense in my opinion (because in HQG the abilites can be much broader/more vague than in RuneQuest).

[soltakss]

As a GM, I wouldn't allow it. 

In the specific example, part of climbing a galcier is to prepare and check my equipment, look for viable routes etc, so that is subsumed into the single keyword and breakouts.

However, if you had Mountaineer 10M (Climb Glacier +2, Prepare Equipment +3, Know Routes +2) then I would say that you could use each of the breakouts to increase the chance of succeeding, giving you a 17M chance.

[Tindalos]

A houserule I've used in the past is that you can't augment with an ability that's a breakout from the same keyword, or the keyword itself.

So augmenting an ability with itself would be covered by that.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Colgrevance said:

but I don't see why this should not work.

As I said 

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The contest frame (normally) prevents it.

In Simon’s example, the seven breakout points are quite an investment in skills, but don’t stop this very specific example. I’ve not actually had anyone ever do this. I’m going see if I can summon @Ian Cooper here for another angle on this. 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Colgrevance said:

and was wondering why such a rule does not exist in HeroQuest, 

HeroQuest Glorantha is HeroQuest 2.1

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Colgrevance said:

BTw, I am asking because I saw just such a prohibition to augment the same ability in RQG, and was wondering why such a rule does not exist in HeroQuest

I always thought it did, or at least remember it existing, though can't find it now.

But as an HQG GM, I do not allow it - as @David Scott has noted, it doesn't make contextual sense.  Effectively, you're already using that keyword.

[Colgrevance]

Thanks all, I am with you in thinking 'self-augmentation' doesn't make a lot of sense in most circumstances. I was just wondering if I had missed something, as there is no explicit rule against it in HeroQuest 2 or HQG.
 

[Ian Cooper]

On 6/17/2018 at 1:15 PM, Colgrevance said:

BTw, I am asking because I saw just such a prohibition to augment the same ability in RQG, and was wondering why such a rule does not exist in HeroQuest, where it would make much more sense in my opinion (because in HQG the abilites can be much broader/more vague than in RuneQuest).

Augments in HQG are permitted at discretion. Is it interesting, is it revealing. That rule appears at HQ2+ because players had begun augment-hunting as  a mini-maxing strategy. So that rule would say: is the player augmenting the ability with itself interesting or revealing. Does it entertain? if not, they can't.